Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: VaeK on June 09, 2024, 10:08:07 am
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Thanks for this. Is the something I lead with in the form 6(1)
Still haven't heard back from BAO.
Clearly, an N244 needs to be completed. I am providing assistance....
Thank you for contacting me.
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Hi I have the exact same situation
I think that very unlikely.
You need to start a new topic of your own if you want advice.
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Hi I have the exact same situation but my refusal letter arrived 5days after the n244 deadline !!!!! I'm so stressed need help
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So how do you know the PCN was issued in June 2022?
Why haven't you submitted a SAR if you don't have the originals or copies of notices. As I say, you need proof.
Hello,
As mentioned previously I have no proof of the PCN issued on 9/6 apart from my phone call where it was confirmed 2 times yesterday by LBBD but I am trying to get physically evidence but it feels like time is running out to obtain it?
I have submitted a SAR knowing this new information. I requested the letters verbally on the phone but they denied but I've just realised they can't deny as it's my information.
Yes an invalid PCN is an invalid PCN but I feel it's gone far if I write to the council will they acknowledge it? LBBD confirmed they did not send any letters in 2023 which I feel was an intentional delay tactic. Wouldn't they/TEC just resume with the balliff action that is causing me to be stressed in my condition if I simply write to them? The time to file the N244 would of passed.
Just some thoughts out loud.
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So how do you know the PCN was issued in June 2022?
Why haven't you submitted a SAR if you don't have the originals or copies of notices. As I say, you need proof.
If you have proof, then IMO don't bother with the N244. You simply write to the council. DVLA is irrelevant, Royal Mail is irrelevant. An invalid PCN is an invalid PCN(whatever b****y address it carries). It could not be served therefore the enforcement process never moved off square 1. You would therefore be entitled IMO to take the matter to the Local Government etc. Ombudsman.
My case was very similar and I didn't advise the company to pursue the N244 route - the council had objected to the OOT* which the company only found out about when they received the enforcement agent's Notice of Enforcement. I simply wrote to the council.
*- standard stuff, 'we sent the NTO' etc. etc. Of course the company hadn't received the notices so the error was unknown until they wrote to the council whose lower-level staff were similarly obdurate and obstructive - a company isn't covered by the Access Regs so couldn't submit a SAR.
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Thanks for this. Is the something I lead with in the form 6(1)
Still haven't heard back from BAO.
No other PCN issue evidence as it was in 2022. I have looked through my letters and emails but that only shows I was working during that time and potentially going to hospital appts.
I have tried LBBD again but they are not giving straight answers....
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As regards the Royal Mail:
According to your evidence:
9/3/2022 - 8/6/2022
9/6/2022 - PCN issued
6/4/2022 - contravention date.
Therein lies part of the answer: there was a gap of more than 2 months between the contravention date and the date of issue of the PCN.
What evidence other than a phone call do you have regarding the date of issue of the PCN? It's absolutely key.
I had a similar case recently which involved the same principle but with slightly different facts. This involved my son driving a company van and not receiving the NTO and OfR..and then the CDER notices came.
A suitably worded letter to Wandsworth council resolved this. The issue was that the idiots wrongly formatted the keeper's address so that the post code was missing from the address - not overtyped on a lower line, but missing.
An authority may not as a matter of law seek to enrich itself from an unlawful act. In my case the NTO had not been served because the notice did not carry the DVLA's address for the registered keeper.
In your case, prima facie the PCN was served out of time* (more than 28 days after the contravention) and is therefore invalid. Everything else falls as a result. The keeper does NOT have to make reps on this point, the PCN is invalid in law. That the delay also meant that it escaped your RM redirect is actually incidental.
Here's the Act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted.
* Nothing you've posted suggests that any of the exemptions is in play, therefore 6(1) applies.
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Morning. Up early Stressing about this again not good for me and baby.
But I called LBBD twice and spoke with 2 customer service reps each one gave me different information but they haven't received a TEC decision yet and they were a bit helpful, they provided me with dates on when letters were issued.
BZ978749490
9/6/2022 - PCN issued
14/7/22 Charge Cert
4/8/22 PDR letter
12/7/22 Order of recovery
21/9/22 - CDER Group Warrent to court
No letters in 2023.
29/1/24 - Appeal done online done by myself after receiving CDER Group letter.
31/1/24 - Appeal Progress letter LBBD confirm all letters was sent to my previous address.
I asked for the most recent letter to be emailed but course LBBD didn't want to resend.
So have requested for the telephone recording and will add to my evidences that I've applied for the telephone recording even though it will take 30 days. I will screenshot my call log and application to add it also because the lady verbally mentioned my previous address of the letter to sent on 31/1/24. Crazy. LBBD clearly did not update their records with DVLA.
The PCN is an ANPR so was advised it takes longer to issue therefore issued on 6 June 22. However all my DVLA registered keeper details were up to date by then but but I still did not receive any letters after. LBBD confirm it was sent to my previous address but need to prove it! I have contacted my previous landlord but she wasn't nice to us so need to use other avenues. Clock is ticking but I'm adamant and need this info complied accurately.
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I meant in relation to Anderson mentioning he was harsh - that I don't mind his response being harsh/truthful (from his perspective) as I appreciate a different viewpoint to help me refine the focus of my response.
Apologise if it was read wrongly.
Very grateful for your help!! OK yes I can test it here and if you're able to help that would be great
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Thank you! I don't mind a truthful and different eye in order to help refine the focus.
What does this mean? Are you now going to compile the necessary evidence and test it here?
I can help you with the N244 application form but let's have some substance.
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Thank you! I don't mind a truthful and different eye in order to help refine the focus.
Will also get onto the suggested.
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'I also can provide evidence of move to the property.....redirecting my mail via Royal Mail..I also changed my address..DVLA.
..changed my DVLA address with DVLA prior to the date..
OP, I fear that any hearing is not going to go well because it will be on the papers and so no chance for you to convey your credibility to the judge.
Facts AND evidence in support of those facts is what counts IMO.
IMO, you failed previously because, as I understand it, you did not provide evidence in support of your claims, you simply asserted in writing.
This won't do IMO.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you get one bite at this cherry - per PCN- and you need to assemble evidence.
So, let's break things down.
1. The OOT itself
Why an OOT at all? Because you did not receive the OfR.
Why?
Because - to use shorthand- it was addressed to your old address, was not captured by any redirect arrangements and you were not expecting it.
Why addressed to your old address? Because this was the address provided by DVLA as your registered address at the time of the contravention.
Whose fault is this? You say DVLA's but from what I can see have no direct evidence in support.
09/05 filed for change of address March 2022 DVLA didn't update til early May 2022.
On March ?? 2022 I completed the change of address form for the V5c logbook and sent it to the DVLA.
So let's look at this. What evidence do you have that you filed for a change? If no hard evidence, then look at it backwards i.e. in order for DVLA to change the address they needed a request from you..and if this wasn't the one you say you made in March then when did you do it? It had to be done at some time! Have you asked DVLA why they updated their records? Remember, DVLA are not part of the enforcement process. For all we know they have a note on your file to say that the change of RK was made on *** but that the request came from you in March!
So, have you hard evidence of your request in March?
If not, did you contact them at any time prior to receiving your new V5C to chase them or submit a fresh request?
2. Given that you say you had a RM redirect in place, why were the council's notices(note my use of the plural) issued during its currency not captured by Royal Mail?
You have evidence that unnamed- to us at least- persons' mail was to be redirected from 9 March to 8 June.
So far you've focused exclusively on the PCN, but IMO - and you can check with the council- you would have been sent at least 2 notices during this period, not just the PCN
So, what notices or correspondence were sent by the council prior to, say, 5/6 June? Ask them.
Following on from this point - was the exact person's name as on the previous V5C listed on the mail redirect and was the address exactly the same as on the V5C?
3. Why weren't you expecting the PCN?
Follows from the above.
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I still recommend that you seek advice from Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/). Ask for help in wording your N244 applications. You only have one shot at it.
Bear in mind that this is about your reasons for being late with your Statutory Declarations. And that is the only only issue that the District Judge is allowed to consider. The merits or otherwise of the actual alleged contraventions, who was driving etc are not relevant. If you enclose any copies (and only enclose copies, keep the originals safe) of documents with the applications then clearly mention them in the text of your applications.
So a simple chronology that shows that at the time of the alleged contraventions your V5c logbook was in the process of having the Registered Keepers address updated by the DVLA. It was not your fault that the DVLA provided an out of date address to the Council. You have no control over how long it takes for the DVLA to action such requests. Do a bit of news research. Seems to me that early in 2022 there were lots of complaints about DVLA delays, that was still in the COVID disruption timeframe. As a result of the out of date address you did not receive the Penalty Charge Notices or any of the other statutory documents, in particular the Orders of Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge).
Mention that you did put in a place a 3 month post re-direction on March 9th 2022. But it didn't produce any of the Council notices.
Unless things have changed, BAO will know for sure, then you need one application per TEC refusal notice. So two in your case. You can't combine applications. Since you won't be getting the fees refunded then you'll have to go for an "on the papers" hearing at £119 each. As opposed to a hearing in person.
I would have expected that your original OOT applications should have been accepted, given your account of the circumstances. That said, your Out of Time applications were a bit cluttered with irrelevancies and probably the point was lost that you had applied for the RK address update on March ?? 2022 and the alleged contraventions occurred on April 2022. However your address wasn't updated until May ?? 2022, hence the DVLA supplied an out of date address to the Council. Something that was not under your control.
The interests of justice require that your Out of Time applications should be accepted so that the cases can be reset and you can have an opportunity to submit representations and appeal to the Adjudicator or pay the penalties at the Penalty Charge Notice rates.
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Hello,
Yes I have started to fill the form for assessment aiming to finish in between my work meetings today.
Trying to make sure I input the correct info etc.
Ok 18th I was really aiming for this week.
What do you think of getting more legal advice because I really thought it would go in my favour with TEC but it's left me feeling a bit worried that I might get rejected again.
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I think the latest date to file is a maximum by the end of this week.
The last date by which you must file N244 is the 18th.
BUT if you have god reason for a delay and can explain it then they accept later submission.
Have you yet looked at form EX160 that Enceladus mentioned?
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Ok thank you.
You mentioned needing to see all evidences do you have any other comments? . Is there anything else you could add or in your point of view could help the case? Should I contact LBBD as part of my property is in the borough or it may be a conflict of interest.
I think the latest date to file is a maximum by the end of this week.
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The statement of truth is not crucial. However it helps to know what LBBD have said, so you can rebut it. When you file an OOT application the Enforcement Authority should send you a copy of why they oppose the application, if they oppose. LBBD seem to believe that such rules don't apply to them so they frequently don't bother.
It would also be good to have some evidence that you applied for the V5c logbook address update before the 8th of April 2022. Otherwise the District Judge might just conclude that you didn't apply until May 2022, so this is a problem of your own making,
However the Royal Mail redirect is also good evidence. Even if you didn't actually apply to update your address until after April the 8th, you should still have got the notices in the post via the re-direct.
You could also try contacting Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/). They may be able to help you complete the N244 applications in return for a small donation.
Try to keep the case very simple.
On date X I changed address from A to B
9th Mar 2022 I paid for a Royal Mail redirect for three months .
On March ?? 2022 I completed the change of address form for the V5c logbook and sent it to the DVLA.
8th April 2022 is the date of the two alleged contraventions.
The Borough requested the Registered Keeper details from the DVLA but though no fault of mine the address update had not yet been processed. Delays with the DVLA were widespread news in 2021 and 2022.
etc.
etc.
As a result I did not receive the initial Penalty Charge Notices and was denied my right to challenge the Notices and to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator.
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Hello,
No I haven't received anything, no communication with LBBD until I called on 8th Feb stating I wanted to appeal the PCN as I tried to do it online but they said it was transferred to the enforcement agents so denied my request. Additionally I asked what address they had on file and it was my old address, I asked them to update it to my new address.
Nothing received via LBBD.
Regarding DVLA I will check my emails but I am pretty sure I would of included this in my original evidence if I received the change of address application receipt I'm thinking it was done via post.
Is the SoT key for the case?
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Do you have anything to show that you applied to the DVLA to update the address on your V5c logbook in March 2022? An email acknowledgement maybe?
When you submitted the Out Of Time applications you should have been sent copies of a "Statement of Truth" from LBBD for each PCN. These would detail why LBBD object to your OOT applications and would have been sent to the address you put on the OOTs. Did you receive any such documents?
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Hello please see link to the relevant documents.
https://imgur.com/a/5PdlTHu
CDER Group letters,
OOT reasons same for both PCN's
TEC refusal letters and court order date 31st May
RM redirection old address from 09/03 til 08/06/2022
Log book date: 09/05 filed for change of address March 2022 DVLA didn't update til early May 2022.
Contravention date: 08/4/22
I'm ready to pay the fee to file £119 x 2 or fill in the 2 N244 forms which I need guidance for once reviewed so please inform me of the next steps. Time is going to fast friend.
Thank you!
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At the top of page 1 of this forum there is a sticky post titled READ THIS FIRST..... (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) It includes instructions on how to post up documents and images.
In essence you can host your docs and images on a third party hosting site and then paste the links to them into your posts on here. There are several sites to choose from and all offer a free of charge option.
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I've been trying to upload images since this evening. It keeps saying folder is full even though the images are below 1KB as stated on the attachment notes. So frustrating. Can I send you the TEC forms directly? All my information is redacted apart from the relevant parts to answer your questions directly
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Hello
Thanks for you response!! Of course I tried to upload the letter, resized the image several times but the website said error hence why I gave dates.
This is the response:
Court order drawn 31st May 2024
"Your recent application to file a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement out of time was referred to the Court
Oficer for a decision without a hearing under Part 75.5(1) of the Civil Procedure Rules. Your application has been refused.
The Trafic Enforcement Centre (TEC) is unable to assist with any queries you may have regarding why the application was refused. The Court Officer is not required to give an explanation for refusal. The refusal is determined on the evidence provided for your reasons for filing the application out side the given time, and not the original contravention. Please be aware that any enforcement action may be reintroduced by the Local Authority pursuing you and the TEC do not have the authority to stop enforcement action. "
This is the same response for both PCN's.
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For future reference you can get the Statutory Declarations and Out of Time applications witnessed free of charge at any convenient County Court. It says such on the forms.
Be aware that you will need two review (N244) applications, one for each of the TEC refusals. So each application will attract a fee.
You will not be able to get the fees refunded even if your applications are granted.
However the fees will be waived if you qualify for an EX160 remission. So low income, low savings and qualifying benefits. See here. (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-help-with-court-and-tribunal-fees)
Who was driving is irrelevant. The vehicle owner is liable and that's presumed to be the Registered Keeper of the vehicle at the address held by the DVLA on the date of the contravention.
So please answer the questions above by H C Andersen and Neil B above. And post up all the documents that you have, just redact your name & address where present. Please leave everything else visible.
Did you get anything from B&D objecting to your Out of Time applications, usually titled "Statement of Truth" or did you get them with the Traffic Enforcement Centre notices? If you did then please post them up as well
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In addition, pl post copies of your OOT reasons,
That in particular.
You are asking us if you should seek a review of the TEC decision to refuse but not yet showing us what has been refused?
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You have posted in the wrong forum, you need Council tickets. (now done)
I have asked the moderator to move so don't touch!
But to make the most of the time..
This process depends upon accuracy and evidence. Dates need to be exact.
Your account is typical of someone whose DVLA registered keeper details were not up to date as at the date of contravention. Therefore we and you need:
Address A(your old address) was the address on your V5C until ***;
Address B (your new address) became the DVLA address on ****(look at the V5C pl, actually get the doc out and check);
The registered keeper was C as at the date of the contravention and C was the or one of the persons listed under RM's mail forwarding service which was in effect from ** to ***.
In addition, pl post copies of your OOT reasons, TEC's refusal letter and CDER's Notice of Enforcement. I ask for the latter because this 'letter' and their agent attending couldn't occur in 'that same week' because a NoE must give 7 clear days for payment before the matter is escalated and £235 additional fees added to the debt. By posting the notice we can see the date of posting and last date for payment, both of which are stated clearly. TEC's letter will tell us the latest date by which an N244 must be submitted.
Time is not your friend in this matter, but with your prompt help we can be.
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Hello !
Hope you've had a good weekend. I'm in need of clear advice leading to prompt actions as I have 5 days to make a decision this upcoming week.
I'm going to try and explain this as clear as possible.
I'm having a stressful time bearing in mind I had to also travel into Central London to solicitors to sign the PE2 & PE3 forms document
Summary:
-2 PCN's by Barking and Dagenham (b&d) Council both dated 8th April 2022 - No notice of the occurred offences.
-Did not receive any correspondence about these until enforcement agents knocked on my door of my new address in Jan 2024 therefore wasn't given the chance to appeal nor given enough notice to pay. I was shocked and confused because I would paid it straight away.
(side note: It wasn't actually me driving but my younger brother borrowed my car running errands prior to a family wedding on 9th April 2022)
- In April 2022 was also 7 months pregnant with my 1st child and ordered to work from home during that time so can prove I wasn't driving but working sending emails around the time of the PCN and I normally pay promptly to keep on top of my bills considering I have nursery fees to pay for my 1st child etc.
Timeline:
- 24th Jan 2024 - Received enforcement agents CDER Group letter and agent knocked on door that same week.
-Called B&D and they stated they have transferred it to enforcement agents due to no correspondence sent to my old address, B&D they have my previous address on file.
- Enforcement/Bailiffs kept visiting and intimidating me. I refused to accept their letters and told them I will file an out of time.
-Filed an TEC Out of Time Statutory declaration in February 2024
- Within the TEC forms evidence submitted and highlighted that I moved to my new address early February 2022, redirected my mail via Royal Mail in Feb 2022, updated DVLA for change of address and logbook in March 2022, submitted my new tenancy agreement and letters proving my move from previous address which Barking and Dagenham Council state they had my old address on file and were sending letters there. Also stating there must of been an elapsed crossover of time for DVLA to update their records. Submitted work emails. Also attached CDER Group letters and emails to prove my prompt communication and correspondence.
- TEC refusal letter dated 31st May 2024 received letter Friday 7th June
- I have approx 5 days left this week to file the N244 as the letter is dated 31st May.
Please kindly advise on the best next steps as stated before the bailiffs knocking on my door (they last requested £700+) in my current state is stressful for my family and I considering it wasn't me driving but to the fact that I have tried to prove and give all the evidence that I can to prove didn't receive the 2 PCN's at all. Please advise anything I can do emails or letters to be sent as soon as possible.
Do you think it may be worth filing the N244 without a hearing which is now £119 or with a hearing costing £313. In person seems the only way for them to see my current mental and physical state however and the costs are racking up unnecessarily. With the N244 will I have to submit more evidence alongside the original TEC I previously added? Will i need legal advise to write up the with the N244 form please do say.
Looking forward to any response and advice!
Thanks!