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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: justice4driversnow10 on July 18, 2023, 10:27:17 am

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on August 20, 2023, 02:16:29 pm

Quote from: justice4driversnow10 on August 16, 2023, 08:55:14 am

Thanks for this. Please do let us know about the approval and the validity of the camera and whether there's any wrongdoing on behalf of the council.

The council has not responded to my information request, and I can't refer this to the Information Commissioner's Office until 7 September, the discount expires on 28 August so realistically you'll have to make a decision based on the information available at the moment.

I think the majority of adjudicators at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal would allow an appeal based on circumstances beyond your control.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on August 16, 2023, 08:55:14 am

Quote from: cp8759 on August 14, 2023, 04:31:35 pm

Personally I would carry on, as you obviously had no choice in how to proceed.

I also have a possible argument about the camera approval, but I'm still investigating its viability.

I can't give you any guarantees, but I do think you have better than even odds if you want to carry on. If you chose to do so, I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal.

Thanks for this. Please do let us know about the approval and the validity of the camera and whether there's any wrongdoing on behalf of the council.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on August 14, 2023, 04:31:35 pm

Personally I would carry on, as you obviously had no choice in how to proceed.

I also have a possible argument about the camera approval, but I'm still investigating its viability.

I can't give you any guarantees, but I do think you have better than even odds if you want to carry on. If you chose to do so, I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on August 11, 2023, 11:31:02 am

Hi All,

So Manchester City Council have responded to my appeal/representation and have rejected my appeal. I have uploaded all sides of the rejection here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/198760434@N04/with/53064145104/

I would be grateful if I get some steer on the odds of success going to a tribunal / independent adjudicator based on what I have submitted so far.

Your help would be greatly appreciated once again. Many Thanks

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 27, 2023, 10:49:12 pm

They have 56 days to respond.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 26, 2023, 12:53:53 pm

I submitted my representation early this morning. Any ideas how quickly do they reply with a decision?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 24, 2023, 11:00:08 pm

Looks like it's working now. Many thanks again. Really appreciate it

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 10:52:36 pm

Try now please.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 24, 2023, 10:39:30 pm

Removed the spaces from the youtube url and launched in youtube and it is showing as video is processing. Any idea?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 10:36:57 pm

OK I just wanted to check you hadn't made a representation already. In the circumstances, please send what I have drafted, and please make sure to amend the youtube link so that they can click on it.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 24, 2023, 07:48:02 pm

The first response from me was replying indicating my intention to appeal.  The 2nd was when they provided me a link to the viewmypcn site but only showing the footage which you saw. To which I replied stating that I need 3 minutes of video footage preceding what they have made available. The 3rd message from me was to request a status update on the 2nd request. Not sure they will reply and provide this footage that I have requested which will show them the difference my situation and the situation I posted over the weekend where the two drivers successfully reversed back to avoid entering the bus gate.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 24, 2023, 07:21:09 pm

Thanks, really appreciate it. The two communications you can see from me is my initial request to ask for the extended video preceding what they have made available on the pcn and then a follow up to ask for a status of the request. They have not replied to either request. Am I OK to submit my challenge per your advice?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 07:06:03 pm

Here is my suggestion (you'll have to remove the spaces from the youtube URL, I had to add them as otherwise the forum video integration was hiding the text):

Dear Manchester City Council,

I challenge liability for PCN MC15861930 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. When I approached the bus gate I saw the signs and attempted to reverse out, however the driver behind my was blocking my path so I was effectively trapped. The council has placed a traffic island at this location such that it is not possible to take an alternative route if drivers in close proximity to one's rear refuse to reverse.

As an illustration of this scenario, I refer you to the video at https://www. youtube .com/watch?v=4KxRKgIx0hE which shows two drivers executing exactly such a manoeuvre, but as that video shows this is contingent on the driver at the rear being willing to reverse.

I could not ram my way out nor could I reasonably be expected to get out of the vehicle to start remontrating with the driver of the car behind mine, as that could easily escalate into a road rage incident.

In the circumstances, I was forced to proceed by circumstances beyond my control and for that reason, the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

However before you send that, can you please confirm what else you've sent to the council? This appears on the case history:

(https://i.imgur.com/Mo8VR7H.png)

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 23, 2023, 05:50:45 pm

Hi All,

Any feedback on how I should proceed?

Thanks

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 22, 2023, 09:38:47 pm

Hi All,

So I went back to road this afternoon on foot and took some pictures and video of the advance sign and the sign on the entry to the bus gate (Video and pictures located here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/198760434@N04/with/53064145104/

Have to say they match what is on google maps. I did miss the advance sign as there was 1 large van in front of me as I was passing it by and was glancing at my Sat Nav at the time. What I see in the video is that there are couple of posts with other signs partially obscuring the advance bus gate sign so not sure if that could be highlighted. I did then notice in the video that I recorded today, that there is a diversion and road ahead closed sign at the traffic lights before the bus gate entrance. These signs weren't there on the 10th July 2023 the date of the alleged contravention.

If you refer to video footage I have provided in the link above, 1 minute and 40 seconds in you will see 2 vehicles trying to turn back and on this occasion succeeding and thus not entering the bus gate. I was trying to do the same but the car behind was too close and refused to go back. Had it done the same as the 2 vehicles in the video I have provided, I too would have been able to turn back and avoided entering the bus gate thus not in contravention of the restriction. It is very frustrating. I still feel I should appeal on the 'Other Grounds' and looking at this link from this website: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xnmj-f7F-2vJBWxrX7r2XWkb9GPOR0fj/view from the cancellation guide from Manchester City Council, I feel my case falls into the text below:

"Other Reasonable Grounds/Mitigating Circumstances
On occasions where the PCN was correctly issued, but there are mitigating
circumstances, the Council will take into consideration mitigation when
reaching a decision.
The Council has a duty to act fairly and proportionately and will exercise
discretion sensibly and reasonably.
We will also consider using our discretion to cancel a PCN in the following
circumstances:
● Where there is satisfactory evidence that the vehicle had broken down
and reasonable steps were taken to remove it as soon as possible
(evidence must be supplied)
● Where the interests of justice in the Council’s opinion require the
cancellation of the PCN."

Does anyone agree? If anyone could offer me a statement to that effect that I can put forward in my representation / appeal I would be really grateful. Happy for you to DM if you can also.

Have to re-iterate pedestrian and motorist safety was what I took into consideration in terms of not reversing. There was an opportunity prior to the car behind where I could have reversed but that is when many pedestrians where crossing directly behind that would have been dangerous and more serious than then contravening the restriction. So I believe some discretion needs to be taken into account and I feel justice here would be to cancel the PCN as I had no other choice. Anyone agree?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 22, 2023, 11:16:22 am

Thanks All, will aim to get these pictures today or tomorrow.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 22, 2023, 12:31:02 am

Quote from: lexy on July 21, 2023, 06:16:59 pm

Advance warning sign (https://goo.gl/maps/yJMBPE2nMEHehvL49)

Signs at the start of the bus gate (https://goo.gl/maps/hyYD3nBA1yfEb5VB7)

Let's home the OP's photos reveal a change in circumstances.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: lexy on July 21, 2023, 06:16:59 pm

Advance warning sign (https://goo.gl/maps/yJMBPE2nMEHehvL49)

Signs at the start of the bus gate (https://goo.gl/maps/hyYD3nBA1yfEb5VB7)

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 21, 2023, 07:56:49 am

Thanks, I will try and get some in next day or so.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 12:39:39 am

I do in principle but the presence and quality of advance warning signage is crucial to whether your argument will stand up to scrutiny, hence I think we need photos of the signage on the approach.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 21, 2023, 12:07:37 am

Out of interest do you agree with my grounds for appeal?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 20, 2023, 11:59:16 pm

Thanks, I will try and see if I can over the weekend. I was travelling southbound and it's only one way. I believe this was 2 way until recently.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 20, 2023, 09:03:50 pm

I think you have reasonable grounds to appeal, but the google street view isn't up to date. Are you in a position to go back and get photos of the signage leading up to the bus gate?

Also, which direction did you approach the junction from?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 19, 2023, 07:20:06 pm

All sides of the PCN are in the Flickr link in the earlier post

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 19, 2023, 07:18:53 pm

This is the exact location.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/deansgate+bus+gate/@53.4834547,-2.2461948,20z

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 09:37:56 am

You need to post a link to the exact location on google street view, like this: https://goo.gl/maps/nRbvzBNfAY3HNuAm6

It's a long road so you need to tell us the exact spot please.

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 19, 2023, 08:19:08 am

Hi All, any support and advice?

Title: Re: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: cp8759 on July 18, 2023, 11:37:27 pm

Here's the video footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTWxHTWlvU

Post the remaining pages of the PCN please.

Also post a link to the location on google street view.

Title: Manchester City Council - Alleged Bus Lane Contravention PCN, Manchester Deansgate Bus Gate PCN received
Post by: justice4driversnow10 on July 18, 2023, 10:27:17 am

Dear All,

I have already posted this on another forum called pepipoo but but a poster there has advised to also seek assistance from the good people in this forum as well. Please refer to the post I put in that forum below:

Link: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150691&st=0&gopid=1787218&#entry1787218

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone could help me on whether I can successfully appeal a Penalty Charge Notice I have received this morning for going through a 'new' Manchester City Centre 'Bus Gate' at Deansgate last week.

The issue I have here is that the advance road sign (looking on google street view it was well in advance) I missed it and the next sign was at the entry point of the gate. At the entry point of the Bus Gate I did stop and tried to turn back and then turn around but the way the road layout is designed such that neither reversing is possible due to a pedestrian crossing immediately before the entrance of bus gate thus risking pedestrian safety/risking collision with motorists who are behind and there is an island in the middle of the road before the entrance of the bus gate making it extremely difficult to turn in the road which is what I attempted but before I could fully turn the car other vehicles were directly behind me making it impossible to now go back and not entering the bus gate. I was forced to enter the bus gate and as a result I have received this PCN. The council say CCTV approved camera footage was used to capture my car so the CCTV should also capture the attempt that I made to turn the car around to avoid entering the bus gate. The footage will also clearly indicate that I was forced to enter the bus gate as there was no means possible to avoid entering it.

Link to PCN: https://www.flickr.com/photos/198760434@N04/with/53052132096/

I would really be extremely grateful to anyone who can help advise in successfully appealing this PCN as I had no option but to enter under the circumstances i.e. risking hitting a pedestrian or another motorist.

Regards,

JusticeNow10

P.S. I am awaiting on CCTV video footage from the council.