Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: rum on June 08, 2024, 06:39:26 pm

Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: H C Andersen on July 12, 2024, 09:29:49 pm: We saw one photo of a sign.

IMO, a tad risky to assume this is the totality of signs in the car park. The OP did not say this was the case.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on July 12, 2024, 08:19:15 pm: Quite right. That’s why I’ll wait for cp8759 to reply
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: Incandescent on July 12, 2024, 07:15:27 pm: Quote from: rum on July 12, 2024, 04:15:33 pm
Thanks. I’d like to know what user cp8759 https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1 thinks, as he seemed to have a different opinion further up in the thread.
Well he may have seen a way ahead based on no notice about parking within bay markings near to the bay. Yes this can win an adjudication.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on July 12, 2024, 04:15:33 pm: Thanks. I’d like to know what user cp8759 https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1 thinks, as he seemed to have a different opinion further up in the thread.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: Incandescent on July 12, 2024, 04:06:36 pm: No re-offer of the discount so a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, but would you win ? On the contravention itself, I don't think so having looked at their photo, which shows your nearside wheels the other side of the bay divider. This is more than just "slightly over the line". Of course there may be technical appeal grounds.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on July 12, 2024, 10:27:14 am: OK, here is their letter in full:

https://imgur.com/a/ZvKzRF0
https://imgur.com/a/aFImjUr
https://imgur.com/a/Uu34fnk
https://imgur.com/a/LEFMrxR
https://imgur.com/a/OwjY1NO
https://imgur.com/a/ejfOqQ0
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: Incandescent on July 10, 2024, 12:53:38 pm: Quote from: rum on July 10, 2024, 12:14:46 pm
I’ve just had the “rejection of representations” letter land on the doormat. There is an appeal form for the Parking Adjudicator enclosed.
Should I take photos and upload them here?
Yes, please, we need to see their letter rejecting your reps.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on July 10, 2024, 12:14:46 pm: I’ve just had the “rejection of representations” letter land on the doormat. There is an appeal form for the Parking Adjudicator enclosed.
Should I take photos and upload them here?
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: Incandescent on July 10, 2024, 10:58:31 am: Quote from: rum on July 10, 2024, 10:42:55 am
What can I expect to come from the council now? Court summons?
No, this is not a criminal matter, there is an enforcement process defined in law and regulations. If the council refuse all representations, you can take them to the adjudicators, (in your case, London Tribunals), to hear your appeal. If you lose that is the end of the matter, and the penalty must them be paid, but there are no additional costs to pay. Some cases in the past have gone a bit further to Judicial Review, but not many due to the costs involved. Of course, if you win there is nothing to pay.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on July 10, 2024, 10:42:55 am: What can I expect to come from the council now? Court summons?
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 24, 2024, 09:04:07 am: OK, challenge sent and five screenshots obtained
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 23, 2024, 03:18:00 pm: Quote from: rum on June 21, 2024, 12:01:44 pm
If I select on street, it then asks if the notice was attached to the vehicle or received in the post. Should I choose this option and select attached to the vehicle?
Well yes, we know the notice was attached to the vehicle as we can see a copy in post 1 above.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 21, 2024, 12:01:44 pm: I’m sending the representation/challenge now.

I’m being asked “select the type of contravention you have received?”, but none of the options seem to be valid:

On street contraventions
Moving contraventions (CCTV)
Bus lane contraventions (CCTV)
Static contraventions caught by CCTV

If I select on street, it then asks if the notice was attached to the vehicle or received in the post. Should I choose this option and select attached to the vehicle?
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 06:57:55 pm: Quote from: rum on June 19, 2024, 11:12:11 am
OK, any harm in doing that now, or do you still need some more time?
I have now got hold of:

The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) Traffic Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kd9CegpvyC_QdvR-WnZTaXKAMaIyztYW/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 1) Traffic Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWwGUMxH7SxQ-oVbqXBiCGJ7dkwHokGL/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 2) Traffic Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UeatqtIA6MastiXnVU688rkq9HAonrDt/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 3) Traffic Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OWTtKtc9oCrOgUC_vG1xh6CFL1W70pgp/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 4) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vjgm3BpoXjvX48wocSVhhlEVY3RFWjgW/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 6) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R_CMJgCc66uZl-LCQw5F7Lv-NbWUvaDj/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 6) Traffic Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IyE7npnsu-gSuuDbS7pSid94xSmD_Hkm/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 7) Traffic Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XYEdOXyUKSwpYldPy0S-2pTw4iL7U2ym/view)

From a quick skim there is a requirement to park within a marked bay, so the question is whether on the evidence this requirement was communicated. For now I would stick to the representation as drafted above and we can revisit the best approach when you get the notice of rejection.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 19, 2024, 11:12:11 am: OK, any harm in doing that now, or do you still need some more time?
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 01:04:27 am: Yes unless instructed otherwise, it will be the same form on the council website as you used the last time round.

Just make sure to keep a screenshot of what you submit, and a screenshot of the confirmation page after you've submitted the representation.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 18, 2024, 10:44:05 am: OK thanks. Do I use the same online form to make representations that I used for the informal challenge? This isn’t clear on their site.

The entrance to the car park sign (see street view link in my first post) does state that you need to park within the lines, but the sign inside the car park does not state this (as per the CEO’s photo).
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 18, 2024, 12:48:54 am: I hope you didn't mention anything about signage?

As the NTO (which appears compliant) was issued more than 14 days ago the discount won't be reoffered, so at this point you might as well take this all the way to the tribunal. In order to get there, I would suggest a very basic representation:

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

I would suggest you make this representation towards the end of the month to buy us a bit of time to get the car park order back, but please note that your deadline to make representations is midnight on 1 July and you must not miss this or else all is lost.

Representations should be made online, keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 17, 2024, 10:08:16 am: OK, in response to your first point, I don’t have an exact copy of what was sent to them. But basically it went along the lines of size of vehicle was not easy to park in the space, especially given the proximity of the rather large (bigger than a foot wide) concrete pillar on the driver’s side.

Pics of the full document are here:

https://imgur.com/a/9kwmQPP
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 04:22:39 pm: @rum I'm not sure why you've posted a snipper of the NTO, we can't do anythign with snippets of documents.

Please post:

1) Your informal representations that you originally made against the PCN, and
2) All sides of all pages of the NTO, turned the right way round please.

Please see the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on how to post images properly in your posts.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 13, 2024, 12:59:20 pm: Yes I am the registered keeper/owner.

https://imgur.com/a/CoEfMkr

(https://i.imgur.com/yGwzVWL.jpeg)
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: cp8759 on June 12, 2024, 10:29:45 pm: @rum well the only photo of signage is this one:

(https://i.imgur.com/2mkpA78.jpeg)

It doesn't prove the council's case, so don't mention it as you don't want to alert them to any deficiencies in their evidence.

Are you the registered keeper?

Also please show us a copy of your informal representation, in the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places oder.
Title: Re: London Borough of Harrow, Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 08, 2024, 06:43:49 pm: Hmmm I've posted the files using imgur, but I can't see them. They're definitely in the post when I go to edit it... :o ???

EDIT: changed something, looks like they are visible now
Title: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park
Post by: rum on June 08, 2024, 06:39:26 pm: Whilst dropping off my child for an exam during the Easter hols in April, I used the Davy House Car Park (which is covered). I paid for the correct number of hours.

Due to my car's size and the parking sensors are a bit too sensitive, I left a bit of space between the driver side and a very large concrete pillar on the driver side. I had adjusted the car's position several times but it was too risky to get it closer. The car park was virtually empty at the time I parked, however all the bays have a pillar on one side of the other. Nonetheless, Harrow council slapped me with a PCN for not parking within a marked bay (contravention 86), even though I was only just slightly over the line.

Here's the Google Street View link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pdvCS1f3RsRrfsS97 (there are no more pics of the inside of the car park I'm afraid).

I appealed the PCN (attached), on the basis that the bay has a large pillar on the driver's side (I reverse parked) and that this discriminates driver's of larger vehicles. Harrow Council rejected it within days; I attach their rejection letter.

I'm now at the 'Representations' stage, so the fine is now the full amount. I intend to make representations, but I am not entirely sure under what grounds. Can any of the experts advise? Thanks!

(https://i.imgur.com/tXb7xBH.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Eij9t66.jpeg)