Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Staygulf on June 07, 2024, 05:36:49 pm

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: mickR on October 10, 2024, 08:55:56 am

well done 👏

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 09, 2024, 10:41:52 pm

DNC'ed.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Hippocrates on August 29, 2024, 05:37:13 pm

1. The Angel was the former place the hearings were heard! I preferred that venue as it was larger and the Wetherspoons was closer.  ;D

2. The use of "will" as opposed to "may" is contrary to the law. Yet another discrepancy between the legal documents and their website.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/6/made


(6) If the enforcement authority does not accept the representations, its decision notice—

(a)must—
(i)state that a charge certificate may be served on the recipient unless within the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the decision notice—

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on August 29, 2024, 05:34:56 pm

Quote from: Hippocrates on August 29, 2024, 05:31:11 pm

Appeals are held at Hearing Square, Angel Square, Upper Ground Floor, Block 2, London EC1V 1NY  :o  :o  :o

What happens if I do not pay, or do not appeal?

Should you fail to pay or appeal to the parking adjudicator, then a charge certificate will be issued, increasing the charge by 50%. You have 14 days in which to pay this. There is no further right to appeal at this stage.  >:(

I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this. Please explain.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Hippocrates on August 29, 2024, 05:31:11 pm

Appeals are held at Hearing Square, Angel Square, Upper Ground Floor, Block 2, London EC1V 1NY   :o  :o  :o

What happens if I do not pay, or do not appeal?

Should you fail to pay or appeal to the parking adjudicator, then a charge certificate will be issued, increasing the charge by 50%. You have 14 days in which to pay this. There is no further right to appeal at this stage.  >:(

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on August 29, 2024, 05:15:38 pm

@Staygulf well as the discount is not on offer it's a no-brainer to carry on, I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on August 29, 2024, 04:31:30 pm

As expected, Redbridge have rejected the representations but their response does not appear to have properly considered them.

We should now like to appeal, so help would be appreciated in drafting the appropriate wording.

@cp8759 ?

https://1drv.ms/b/c/115d8d1fa1656300/ES8hqpCfgZ9El3yh62CZGIoBpqlc-dbe_jIGDQb8DUp5GA?e=nlGY1f

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 23, 2024, 07:50:26 pm

It's up to you but I would just use the same wording as used last time round. After all it's Redbridge we're talking about, so your representation will go to a mindless drone who will send you a fob-off rejection.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on July 22, 2024, 12:16:27 pm

Quote from: cp8759 on July 19, 2024, 05:38:00 pm

@Staygulf honestly you can just use the draft in reply 11 above, there isn't really any need to say anything more than that.

@cp8759 Just to be sure, I used those words for the informal challenge. Are you suggesting I should merely repeat them for the formal representations or should I put more meat on the bones as suggested by H C Andersen but include those words again?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2024, 05:38:00 pm

@Staygulf honestly you can just use the draft in reply 11 above, there isn't really any need to say anything more than that.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: H C Andersen on July 19, 2024, 01:51:24 pm

There aren't any regulations which govern local authority off-street car parks as far as I'm aware. Neither is it practical or proportionate IMO for every relevant article of an order to be stated within the car park.

Photos are not a legal requirement. In any event the council have provided clear photos showing the significant incursion of the vehicle into an adjoining bay. As photos aren't a legal requirement it follows that the absence of a photo of the noticeboard cannot be a defence.

However, given the authority's terse and incomplete response to initial reps I would focus on their attitude to discharging their duty and look for a procedural impropriety defence.

IMO, acknowledge that the car was astride 2 bays- give reasons as well if necessary- but make the point that the conditions of use displayed on the noticeboard were noted but as these did not refer to 'parking wholly within a bay' even less to the council's powers should a driver err in this way the driver did not feel it was their absolute duty to park wholly within the bay.

If the authority consider that parking in this instance gives them the power to demand a penalty then they must explain why this is not brought to drivers' attention at the site. Any response to these representations which fail to address this point must be incomplete and therefore a procedural impropriety.

OP, use whatever words you like but IMO:
Acknowledge that the car sat in 2 bays;
State clearly that the  noticeboard was read;
State your argument as regards the penalty;
Require them to respond;

..and if the payment machine gives different conditions to those on the noticeboard, highlight this discrepancy, state that it is confusing and ask why those on the machine are not replicated on the board given that certain drivers are exempt from payment and would not as a matter of course consult the machine, therefore placing them at a legal disadvantage.

They'll be other comments, I'm sure.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on July 19, 2024, 11:09:56 am

the NTO has now been received.

@cp8759 are you able to assist in drafting suitable representations to LBR please?

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RvGW3j8o2W92Ecupl?e=aUTUsb

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on June 23, 2024, 05:21:36 pm

Quote from: Staygulf on June 22, 2024, 02:49:10 pm

Quote from: cp8759 on June 22, 2024, 02:37:53 pm

You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?

28 days from receipt of the NTO? But they will surely await 14 days to see if we make payment before issuing the NTO? That takes us up until 4 July and we are back on 14 July.

Based on those dates you'll be fine to just wait till you get back.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 22, 2024, 02:49:10 pm

Quote from: cp8759 on June 22, 2024, 02:37:53 pm

You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?

28 days from receipt of the NTO? But they will surely await 14 days to see if we make payment before issuing the NTO? That takes us up until 4 July and we are back on 14 July.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on June 22, 2024, 02:37:53 pm

You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 22, 2024, 02:36:48 pm

As expected, @cp8759, the council have issued a rejection notice, rather quickly:-

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RvCMA_MpohCjcxw__?e=nGWwYA

We will await the NTO and than make a formal appeal to the council.

I guess this may arrive when I'm away (25 June to 14 July) but I assume we will have a few weeks after then to appeal.

Help with drafting the appeal will be thankfully received.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 15, 2024, 02:35:44 pm

Thanks.

I'll proceed as planned.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on June 15, 2024, 02:33:04 pm

The fact that the order is mentioned on the meter is irrelevant, unless there is a full copy of the actual text of the order on the meter as well (which there isn't). And even if there were, the fact remains that as no payment is due by a blue badge holder, a blue badge holder would not approach the machine in the first place: you see the signs park in accordance with the signs, display the blue badge and off you go. If you've parked in accordance with the signs there is no requirement to go and look at the parking meter "just in case".

If this case is properly argued on appeal I'd rate the likelihood of success at something in the region of 90%.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 15, 2024, 02:18:03 pm

@cp8759 what I meant was that the Order is mentioned on the pay meter and thus drawn to the attention of the driver. But I agree that no one would know what is in the order when parking and your point about the blue badge had crossed my mind.

I assume that the council will reject the reps, as they normally do, and we will then have to decide whether to take it to appeal. What do you think the chances are of a win?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on June 15, 2024, 02:09:55 pm

Quote from: Staygulf on June 15, 2024, 01:36:09 pm

Just to be clear, are you saying that reference on the pay meter to the Order is not enough, they have to include a reference to parking within bays specifically?

I'm not sure what you mean by "that reference on the pay meter",  but the council is under a duty to put signs up that tell you what the effect of the order is. If the order says to park only in marked bays, there need to be signs that tell you that, because when you park your car you're not going to look up the order (which isn't easy to find anyway) and start reading through a 20 page legal document.

Any instructions on the pay and display machines are irrelevant because the signs say that parking for blue badge holders is free, so a blue badge holder would have no reason to go and look at the pay & display machines.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 15, 2024, 01:36:09 pm

Thanks for that @cp8759.

Just to be clear, are you saying that reference on the pay meter to the Order is not enough, they have to include a reference to parking within bays specifically?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: cp8759 on June 15, 2024, 01:23:28 pm

@Staygulf the order is The London Borough of Redbridge (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2013 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19A6LZKje6gPO-0XCa_eNvY3vaVkL45xC/view) as amended by The London Borough of Redbridge (Off-Street Parking Places) (Amendment No, 2) Order 2013 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/14HVl96wE6j1VgpD5Sa8pidjH1MBptYp2/view), The London Borough of Redbridge (Off-Street Parking Places) (Amendment No, 1) Order 2016 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bhL9TPNK-cMvT-zq-B8i1P1wVvGNrMrD/view) and The Redbridge (Off-Street Parking Places) (Amendment No.2) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LNyl5-5mrFYpHzPsR4srTLNU4_jRSRTT/view)

The council photos do not prove any contravention at all, as they don't show any signage whatsoever (you do not want to alert the council to this deficiency in their evidence):

(https://i.imgur.com/pR2ia6h.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1GfEqWO.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RPV6vFX.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dOo6kH4.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2NN3cG1.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/o0vH7ON.jpeg)

In these circumstances less is more, as you don't want to make any unnecessary self-incriminating admissions. I'd suggest a much shorter representation which the council is unlikely to give any proper consideration to, but that will be clear to the adjudicator:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability because nothing put the driver on notice as to the effect of article 8(1)(b) of The London Borough of Redbridge (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2013, and in such circumstances the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

Send this via the council website and make sure to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Incandescent on June 15, 2024, 12:06:14 pm

There have been a few cases on here recently where it was found the Traffic Order did not exist, so worth checking. No Order = No Contravention

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 15, 2024, 10:38:59 am

I propose the following representations, any comments or suggestions please?

PCN No AF
Reg No
These are my representations against the above PCN
I reverse parked between two other cars and did not realise that my wheel was over the white line as I thought it was a parking space. When I returned to my car, the other cars had gone, revealing that my wheel was over the line.

At present, I do not believe that the PCN should have been issued.

I paid for a valid parking session within the instructions given on the tariff/ parking signage.

The regulations shown on the signage state:

“No parking on red or yellow lines, pavements, grassed areas or passing bays. Vehicles must not cause an obstruction. Failure to comply with the above will result in a PCN being issued”

There is nothing on the signage which requires cars to be parked properly in marked bays failing which a PCN will be issued. I therefore followed the regulations.

The signage also states that the car park is subject to the London Borough of Redbridge (off street parking places) Order 2013.

I have been unable to locate a copy of this order. It does not exist anywhere on the internet, it is not on the LBR website, I have contacted both the LBR offices and the central library at Ilford, neither of whom have a copy.

There is also a telephone number on the signage which states:
“For all enquiries please contact Vision RCL 020 8500 9911”
This gets you through to the boathouse at Fairlop Waters and they have no clue about the parking arrangements for the car park. Totally misleading.

I respectfully request that, as there appears to be nothing which directs a driver to park within the marked bays, the PCN is cancelled.

If you decide not to accept my representations, I require you to send me a copy of the aforementioned Order so that I can decide whether to appeal.

H T

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 12, 2024, 10:15:17 am

Any further thoughts on my question?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 09, 2024, 05:11:27 pm

Thank you H C Andersen for alerting me to that.

Here is the signage

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0Ru3TkiDnTT7xWTluR?e=cXoXkn

This makes reference to the London Borough of Redbridge (off street parking places) Order 2013 as amended. I've trawled through the internet but can't find it. Does anyone have access to it please or know where I can find it?

It also shows the "regulations" the breach of which gives rise to a PCN. As I've previously mentioned, these do not include parking properly in bays. Should they for it to be enforceable?



Here is the photo showing my daughter's car being parked outside the bay. She reverse parked between two other cars and didn't even see the marked bay at the time as it was hidden.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0Ru3UrtRFh5r_mrQ00?e=WuEI5Y

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: H C Andersen on June 09, 2024, 08:13:51 am

However, this does not appear to cover off street parking such as Fairlop Waters, so what legislation forces a driver to park within a parking space?

There will be a traffic order, you just haven't found it. Standard practice is for the order to be referenced on the same noticeboard which states that cars park wholly within bays.  GSV doesn't help here, it's 5 years old.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 08, 2024, 10:21:58 pm

Here's the reverse of the PCN

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0Ru27eMd07INQ3iXD5?e=MM8SUJ

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 08, 2024, 10:15:23 pm

That's all my daughter sent me. I'll ask her for the reverse.

But what relevance is anything on the reverse to my question?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Hippocrates on June 08, 2024, 09:25:45 pm

The rest of the PCN please.

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 08, 2024, 08:58:07 pm

This is the google street view link

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hxH3W7qCSd8wQjxV6

This is the pcn

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0Ru21TWOCQ2vsQsSRm?e=c5JFsJ

The only TMO I can find is the Redbridge (Waiting, Loading, Stopping and Street Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2021.

However, this does not appear to cover off street parking such as Fairlop Waters, so what legislation forces a driver to park within a parking space?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: John U.K. on June 08, 2024, 07:58:46 am

For meaningful advice please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to the location.

Title: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
Post by: Staygulf on June 07, 2024, 05:36:49 pm

My daughter parked in a Redbridge country car park at Fairlop Waters.

She tells me that she reversed in between two parked cars and thought it was a space. When the other cars had gone she is clearly outside the marked space because the other cars were too (although not a useable excuse)

The car park is operated by Ring Go. The signage says that cars must not be parked on yellow lines, pavements, grassed areas or passing bays and must not cause an obstruction. There is nothing about parking in individual bays.

The car park is not designated on Redbridge's TMO plan so I'm not sure what legislation demands that parking in a bay is required.

The PCN has been issued by Redbridge.

Is this an arguable case?

(It's always my daughter giving me these headaches!)