Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: terminator x on June 06, 2024, 03:39:19 pm
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Ok, thanks all.
TX.
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Ok apologies to H C Andersen, I do understand what he is saying albeit I did not realize that at the time. As it turns out the LA did use the fact that I replied instead of my son to reject the appeal however the paperwork did not turn up (they allege it was emailed).
I think you'd better pay the £55 if you still can. Despite the Notice to Owner saying in bold lettering "Do not pass to the driver", you ignored that and challenged it as the driver. Unfortunately not reading the notice is not a defence and in the circumstances, it's too late for the keeper to make representations.
For clarify the authority did not reject your representations, it disregarded them because you have no right to make representations against a Notice to Owner that is not addressed to you. All you needed to do to avoid this situation was to provide a letter of authority with the representations signed by your son, if you'd asked us at the time we would have told you to do this. Unfortunately it seems you just made the representations in your own name without checking with us, and I don't see how you can record from that.
In the circumstances paying the £55 now is likely to be the least painful option.
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I've explaned the law. If your son wishes to sign a declaration which includes a statement of truth then this is his choice.
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@terminator x I would say do not pay. I have complained to the council about their website and received dubious responses from the parking manager. Notwithstanding they have now changed the web pages. I say continue. If I represent you, I will use them. And they know that full well.
But, you must use the statutory process.
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@cp8759
Hi there. Have I run out of options so just need to pay the £55? Last day to pay that is Monday next week.
Just for the benefit of H C Andersen the NTO was never received, not by email and not by post.
TX.
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Thank you.
IMO, your son cannot submit a TE9 - Witness Statement - unless one of the limited grounds applies. These have been set out in their reply.
The only one which could apply is 'Did not receive the NTO', but of course this depends upon whether the NTO was received. The NTO was issued on 30 July, which ties in with their response to the informal challenge dated 8 July. Their letter also refers to '3rd party representations' being made on 30 Aug, which (sort of) ties in with with the NTO (albeit the reps were made late) but these were not disregarded for lateness, but were for invalidity because they were not made by the addressee on the NTO.
If the above is correct, then the NTO was received and a TE9 may not lawfully be made because your son would be making a false declaration and therefore subject to prosecution - this isn't being written to frighten or intimidate, it's the law and I see no reason to sugar-coat this reality.
So, no TE9 = min. charge of £165 unless their offer of paying £55 is accepted.
Others will have views.
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Ok apologies to H C Andersen, I do understand what he is saying albeit I did not realize that at the time. As it turns out the LA did use the fact that I replied instead of my son to reject the appeal however the paperwork did not turn up (they allege it was emailed).
So today the LA sent some new paperwork giving me / us 14d to pay the original £55 or if not paid then the original paperwork will kick back in with no ability to contest it other than the TE9 paperwork that someone suggested above, see below:
https://ibb.co/xLqzjd7
All advice appreciated.
TX.
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I'm out.
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I'm unclear. Do you accept that you cannot insinuate yourself into these proceedings or not?
I do but they will never know as there are no face to face meetings. Even if there were, my son lives at home so I'd just take him along.
TX.
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I'm unclear. Do you accept that you cannot insinuate yourself into these proceedings or not?
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The council shouldn't even be talking to you about this* unless the registered keeper has authorised you to be their representative and notified the council accordingly.
*- the niceties of data protection if nothing else. Legally you are a stranger to these proceedings.
I just pretended to be him + I have all the paperwork.
TX.
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The council shouldn't even be talking to you about this* unless the registered keeper has authorised you to be their representative and notified the council accordingly.
*- the niceties of data protection if nothing else. Legally you are a stranger to these proceedings.
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Sorry OP, you were wrong.
The NTO makes clear: do not pass to the driver, the recipient only may make reps.
As you say, phoning the council is necessary, for all we know they could simply have disregarded what you submitted.
Ok understood, didn't realize that at the time.
TX.
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Are you the owner of the vehicle: No
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Was the NTO addressed to you? (if so you are the 'owner' at this stage.)
If it was not addressed to you, then the person to whom it was addressed should have signed off the reps.
Pl clarify.
Hi there.
It is my sons car with me driving it on the day; he still lives at home so letters would come there. Just about to call them as cp8759 has suggested.
TX.
Ok interesting, the chap I spoke to says that their records don't indicate if the NoR was emailed or posted so he couldn't say if it was or not. He suggested I email them and explain the situation as I did over the phone.
TX.
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Sorry OP, you were wrong.
The NTO makes clear: do not pass to the driver, the recipient only may make reps.
As you say, phoning the council is necessary, for all we know they could simply have disregarded what you submitted.
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Are you the owner of the vehicle: No
?
Was the NTO addressed to you? (if so you are the 'owner' at this stage.)
If it was not addressed to you, then the person to whom it was addressed should have signed off the reps.
Pl clarify.
Hi there.
It is my sons car with me driving it on the day; he still lives at home so letters would come there. Just about to call them as cp8759 has suggested.
TX.
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@terminator x in the first instance call the council on 020 8891 1411 and ask if a notice of rejection has been issued. If it has, ask for the date that it was sent and whether they can email you a copy.
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Are you the owner of the vehicle: No
?
Was the NTO addressed to you? (if so you are the 'owner' at this stage.)
If it was not addressed to you, then the person to whom it was addressed should have signed off the reps.
Pl clarify.
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@cp8759
Hi there. Do I just need to wait as the link above posted by John UK?
TX.
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It should be possible to obtain a reset.
While waiting for the experts to come along, have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
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Odd this as I contested it, then heard nothing for ages and now they have sent a Charge Certificate having received nothing in between. See below:
https://ibb.co/sjDQxnF
https://ibb.co/Nxcgvqy
Sounds bad. Can anyone help?
TX.
Edit - below is what I sent contesting it (this is the copy they sent me of what I sent them) and as I say they never replied and/or I never got a reply until today.
Contest a Penalty Charge Notice
Dear xxx
Your form has been submitted.
Your case will be placed on hold until you hear from us.
If you need to contact us in the meantime, please quote your PCN notice number and vehicle registration number. To find out more about the appeal process, visit www.richmond.gov.uk/how_to_appeal_pcn
Your reference: FS-Case-641738628
Notice number: RT42129100
Vehicle registration: xxx
Date of issue: 30/05/2024
Location: BROOM PARK TEDDINGTON (CPZ X1)
Explain why you think the PCN should not have been issued: The alleged contravention did not occur
Upload copies of any supporting evidence:
Your details
Title: Mr.
First name: xxx
Last name: xxx
Initials: x
Email: xxx
Address
Postcode: xxx
Select the address: xxx
Are you the owner of the vehicle: No
Vehicle owner details
Title: Mr
First name: xxx
Address
Postcode: xxx
Postcode: Select the address: xxx
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What have you written please?
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Super thanks. Contested it today.
TX.
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@terminator x I'm sorry you haven't had a reply earlier, unfortunately unless someone PMs me or tags me in the thread (as you did yesterday) I don't have time to check every thread, there's just too many tribunal cases I have to deal with.
I put the traffic order in reply 8 above, it clearly does exist and there are no issues with it that I could identify. That being said, the council website is pants:
(https://i.imgur.com/U6m7jkf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/LdE2mGp.png)
This should therefore be an easy win, to see why have a look at the cases on rows 623 to 641 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A623).
For now you just need to make a representation saying that the alleged contravention did not occur (don't add anything else), we know the council will reject anything you say so there's no point in wasting any time on this. Once you have a notice of rejection it should be a straightforward appeal to the tribunal.
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Hi all.
Any views on the attached file? 28d is up Tue next week! Fine now back up at £110 ...
@cp8759 can you help at all?
TX.
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So above someone said "OK well the best hope is that the traffic order doesn't exist, and then it's open and shut."
How do I find and check the TO?
TX.
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Hi all.
Any views on the attached file? 14d is up Tue next week!
TX.
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@cp8759
NTO has arrived, link below:
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:43b6f959-6bcf-4ef2-848e-7900a8798052
TX.
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Is it worth fighting at all as if I wait for the NTO it will be £110 fine vs £55 if paid early. Thanks all.
If you wait for the notice to owner and then challenge it within 14 days of the date of issue, the council will normally reoffer the discount even if they reject.
That being said there might be a winning technical argument based on the information given on the council website, but I can only check this properly once you get the notice to owner. The cases on rows 593 to 609 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A593) explain the issue.
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@cp8759
Apologies but I had to reply to them before you posted your last post above. I fell on my sword as someone suggested and just asked for lenience ish, my response below:
"I have not been to this area before and did not realize that parking was restricted; the signage is inadequate. There is one very small sign as you enter the road (I did not see this) and then no other signage at all. See image below:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QfCzPL4EeMRnWH6ZA
I work in construction and usually park on the site itself (so not the street or any other local street) for 20-25 minutes however this particular morning the gate was shut with no obvious other place to temporarily park other than the street in question. Again I saw no signage on entering the street and there was no signage at all once inside the street. If I had seen some signage then I would have moved on.
On this basis I appeal to your discretionary power not to enforce.
If the above appeal is not accepted then I reserve my right to raise other objections later."
They took their time but have of course refused to accept. Their letter is as link below:
https://ibb.co/cQJqjHg
https://ibb.co/jfRLjsm
https://ibb.co/9hK95g0
Is it worth fighting at all as if I wait for the NTO it will be £110 fine vs £55 if paid early. Thanks all.
TX.
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@terminator x here is The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Broom Park, Teddington) (Parking Places) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JvDiC2mBvOwuGxlXO9e8ctj-RVgOVJsa/view).
Do you have any paperwork or photos confirming why you were there?
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No, I think your best bet is the strategy of last resort (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/city-of-edinburgh-02-parked-in-a-restricted-street-lochrin-buildings-gilmour-pla/msg7413/#msg7413), if you have any meaningful mitigation worth mentioning. Do you have any?
You don't want to go in all guns blazing saying there is no traffic order, because if there is you'll look very silly indeed. By the time you get a rejection, we should know for sure if there is a traffic order and if there is one, we'll know what it says.
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@cp8759
Is my best reply then to just assume a TO does not exist so nothing to enforce? Thanks for help so far.
TX.
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Thanks for that; do you think that as it's an adopted highway there is no way to enforce a parking ticket?
You have that back to front, an adopted highway is one that the council is responsible and they can enforce. I think the more relevant issue is that if they have not make a traffic order imposing any restrictions, then regardless of whether the road is adopted or not and regardless of how much yellow paint is splashed along the carriageway, there are no waiting restrictions to enforce.
Also they have no photo's of the initial observation time eg 1032, they only have it from 1038; don't they need to allow 10 mins or something grace period?
There is no grace period, either you're in contravention or you're not. With a limited exception related to parking bays, grace periods are just a myth.
I was only on site for that time as I was just visiting to take photo's of progress rather than working there all day.
OK well the best hope is that the traffic order doesn't exist, and then it's open and shut. As you weren't driving a works vehicle and it wasn't necessary for you to use a vehicle to go and take some photos, I don't think we can claim any of the exemptions for building works.
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@cp8759
Thanks for that; do you think that as it's an adopted highway there is no way to enforce a parking ticket?
Also they have no photo's of the initial observation time eg 1032, they only have it from 1038; don't they need to allow 10 mins or something grace period?
I was only on site for that time as I was just visiting to take photo's of progress rather than working there all day.
TX.
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Here are the CEO notes:
(https://i.imgur.com/3lciBFk.jpeg)
The road layout looks odd:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QfCzPL4EeMRnWH6ZA
Private gardens: https://maps.app.goo.gl/AjcAZ3RgVkftBFKPA
Private estate residents only: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ge7kraJe3WSodCwT9
Private estate residents only: https://maps.app.goo.gl/YzvZh9v1KxjEkHMe7
Still, it's an adopted highway according to the list of highways maintained at public expense (https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/13340/highways_land_search_register.pdf).
@terminator x if you were working on a construction site why would you go back to your car within 25 minutes?
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I work in construction and there is a new project just started. I normally park "on site" however that day they were slow to open the gates so I thought no worries just park in the street next door! How wrong I was!
TX.
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25 minutes is a very long time to be parked in contravention in London, as the streets are flooded with CEO patrols to bring the money in !
Here is the sign at the southern entrance to this development: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qFWE2rYrtGWSK2KTA
and here's the northern entrance, which also emphasises with signs that it is a private estate: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3qTWLmnPQdVYoQS39
So why were you parked there ? If you were visiting a resident, I would have thought there is a visitor permit system in operation, either a physical scratch-card, or a virtual book on-line process.
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Barmy, parked in a resi street for no more than 25 mins and got a ticket! No traffic wardens to be seen so I suspect that perhaps the locals may be allowed to ticket cars? Didn't see the warning sign, still not sure where it was located.
Anyhoo, paperwork below + some pics that they took. Any failings on their part to allow me to contest?
TX.
(https://i.ibb.co/QCBHVkT/Scan-0010.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/1K78nzq/Scan-0011.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/jLf86fY/Image-Handler8.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZSfTqcT/Image-Handler1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5sF5Xty/Image-Handler7.jpg)