Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: hirerspcn on June 06, 2024, 12:05:25 am
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Which might all be grist to the mill..in time, but IMO not now.
You do not have hard evidence to support your phone calls. My suggested draft focuses on irrefutable evidence, the vast majority of which has been generated by TfL.
I would not intend to expand on the draft unless something which is essential to the issue has been omitted. Frankly, if they can't see their error - in disregarding your reps, and let's be clear this is the issue - then IMO next step is their complaints procedure. IMO, they may not hide behind them having already followed prescribed procedure- which would otherwise deny you a second bite at the cherry- because the evidence shows they have not.
For the future, I am interested in your recollections regarding receipt of their correspondence, in particular a letter dated 12 July, carried by registered mail and being delivered on 19th. Unless there's something untoward at your end, this challenges any reliance upon the presumption of service at a time based upon the date of enclosed letters. But IMO this can be filed for later if required.
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I should add that when I called to request footage and have the charge certificate cancelled, the could not cancel it.
However they advised me on 2 occasions that once I received the footage, I will be able to make representations.
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Also if I am not allowed to make representations after a charge certificate, why bother sending out a dvd, when I was told that I would be able to once I have seen the footage. Also this was sent by recorded mail.
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Forgive me, the letter for this date is 12 July 2024 and was received on 19 July 2024.
Thank you
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PCN dated 10 April(deemed received 12th April);
Request for DVD sent 12 April;
CC dated 4 June;
Latest date for making reps 'in time' was 9 May;
DVD sent 14 June, 36 days after the last date for submitting reps;
DVD received 21 June;
Should be enough.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your letter dated ****(OP we can't see it) disregarding my representations. In your response you offer to reconsider your decision and provide a list of possible reasons why you might do so.
Let me add another.
You issued a PCN on 10 April;
The latest date for submission of representations was therefore 9 May.
I contacted you on 12 April requesting a copy of the DVD - which you offered in the PCN;
On 4 June you issued a Charge Certificate(a permissive power once the 28-day period has elapsed);
On 6 June and in desperation after receiving the CC I submitted representations without the benefit of seeing your evidence, which is my right under the legislation;
You issued the DVD on 14 June(36 days after the latest day of the 28-day period and 10 days after you had issued the Charge Certificate). In addition, you provided a covering letter which omitted any reference to the CC;
On *** you disregarded my representations.
I would suggest you revisit this decision.
Your failure to act fairly is contrary to your public law duty and I would have no hesitation in escalating this matter within Transport for London and, if necessary, to the Ombudsman.
Should you consider and subsequently reject my representations, so be it. But at least proper procedures would have been followed.
YF
*****
Wait for other views and post the date of their letter.
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Tfl have disregarded my late representation. https://i.ibb.co/BBVmQ2f/IMG-3917.jpg
Is my only other option to pay £240, which is a lot of money.
It isn't the only option.
The letter has a list of circumstances that could lead them to reconsider their decision. Do the circumstances of your case fit any of the list items ?
The list doesn’t match any of my circumstances.
I see that they dance around the issue of dates and inaction.
Pl just list the key dates:
PCN dated 10 April(deemed received 12th April);
Request for DVD sent 12 April;
CC dated 4 June;
Latest date for making reps 'in time' was 9 May;
DVD received 21 June;
Was there a covering letter with the DVD, if so pl post.
IMO, disregarding your reps is not about regs per se, it's about TfL's duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with the contravention.
This was the only letter that came with the DVD: https://i.ibb.co/7yB3XQT/IMG-3918.jpg
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I see that they dance around the issue of dates and inaction.
Pl just list the key dates:
PCN dated 10 April(deemed received 12th April);
Request for DVD sent 12 April;
CC dated 4 June;
Latest date for making reps 'in time' was 9 May;
DVD received 21 June;
Was there a covering letter with the DVD, if so pl post.
IMO, disregarding your reps is not about regs per se, it's about TfL's duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with the contravention.
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Tfl have disregarded my late representation. https://i.ibb.co/BBVmQ2f/IMG-3917.jpg
Is my only other option to pay £240, which is a lot of money.
It isn't the only option.
The letter has a list of circumstances that could lead them to reconsider their decision. Do the circumstances of your case fit any of the list items ?
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Tfl have disregarded my late representation. https://i.ibb.co/BBVmQ2f/IMG-3917.jpg
Is my only other option to pay £240, which is a lot of money.
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Thank you Incandescent and cp8759
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Make a representation saying the contravention did not occur, this makes it easy for them to issue a notice of rejection. When asked why the representations are late, explain that you were waiting for the DVD to arrive and that you understood the penalty would be kept on hold until you had a chance to view the footage.
If you get a notice of rejection that allows you to appeal to the tribunal, there are some more substantive grounds we can use at the tribunal.
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In the absence of any information on the location of parking in detail, all you can really select is "the contravention did not occur", this being your honest opinion of the matter.
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What should I write for my challenge and what should I select for my Representation from these options?
Representation details
The Contravention did not Occur.
The Traffic Order was invalid.
I was not the owner/keeper at the time of the Contravention
The Vehicle has been taken without my consent
The Penalty has been paid in full, or has been paid at the reduced amount within the specified period
The Penalty Charge exceeds the applicable amount.
We are a Hire Firm and have supplied the name of the hirer.
There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority
Any mitigating circumstances you wish to raise
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Explanation
On 12 April 2024 I requested footage for this PCN which I did not receive after several weeks. I later received a Charge certificate and called TFL on 6 June to let them know that I did not receive my requested footage.
The customer representative received my request, after which I asked for my charge certificate to be cancelled so that I could make representations. He told me he could not cancel the charge certificate and he advised that once I have received my footage that I will be able to make representations. I was also told that the case would be put on hold until I received my footage
This time on June 18 I called TFL again to let them know I still haven't received my footage, this time making sure to follow up on my requested footage. I was told by the customer representative that it has been sent out and was assured that I would be able to make representations after I have received it.
I called on 21 June to let TFL know that I received my footage and that I wish to make representations. They told me again they couldn't cancel the charge certificate and should explain here why I was unable to make representations.
Since I have received the requested footage I wish to make representations.
Thank you.
_____________________________
What should I select as my representation details from the following:
Representation details
The Contravention did not Occur.
The Traffic Order was invalid.
I was not the owner/keeper at the time of the Contravention
The Vehicle has been taken without my consent
The Penalty has been paid in full, or has been paid at the reduced amount within the specified period
The Penalty Charge exceeds the applicable amount.
We are a Hire Firm and have supplied the name of the hirer.
There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority
Any mitigating circumstances you wish to raise
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Submit your challenge, and also put a note in of the time you called TfL, and what you were told.
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I have just called TFL and they told me that they cannot cancel the charge certificate.
They told me I am still able to challenge it but I have to explain why my challenge is late.
How should I proceed?
Thanks
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Fine, but have you called TfL about the Charge Certificate, because at the moment, you have lost the option to submit reps ? Only when the CC is cancelled will you get it back.
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Received the DVD footage. Looks like i stayed less than a minute. The only reason i can think of is that the passenger has cancelled their rideshare booking.
https://streamable.com/p46azh
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I've read a similar thread here and the first step was to get cctv footage. So I thought instead of making a thread without the footage, get the footage and post it along with the pcn on a new thread.
Let's hope others will take note of this and not make the same mistake. Trying to handle any PCN on your own can be a recipe for disaster.
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Don't read more into the Charge Cert than is shown by the PCN log: a DVD was sent pursuant to your request and then there was no communication from you for nearly 2 months. TfL aren't going to contact you and ask politely 'did you receive the DVD and when may we expect your response', they took the only procedural action open to them to jog your memory: they issued a CC.
And it worked because it caught your attention!
So what do you intend to do? I suggest you wait no more than 3-4 days and if you've not received the DVD then contact them again. In the meantime, I suggest you email TfL and thank them for posting the DVD which you will action as quickly as possible and submit representations.
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I've read a similar thread here and the first step was to get cctv footage. So I thought instead of making a thread without the footage, get the footage and post it along with the pcn on a new thread.
I have asked for the charge certificate to be cancelled but the customer rep told me that he can't do that, a new dvd was sent out and was told that the case would be put on hold in the meantime.
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Well the PCN history says it all:
(https://i.imgur.com/WNsLVa2.png)
You'll just have to go with Incandescent's suggestion but truth be told, I think TFL will just say you missed the representations deadline and that's that. It's generally a bad idea to try and handle a TFL PCN without assistance from us, as these sorts of procedural issues can be a real minefield.
It's a real shame as I think the signage at this location doesn't allow CCTV enforcement, but unless TFL agrees to consider an out-of-time representation then it's too late to argue any of that.
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What a pity you didn't come on here when you first received the PCN.
Normal advice here is to ask TfL for the video, as you did, but to also point out that TfL suspend the PCN enforcement for 2 weeks and then automatically start again. It looks like you just sat waiting for the video without calling TfL when it didn't turn up. Yes, I know, we are all busy people, me included, and I'm retired !!!
So I think the best thing to do now is to ask TfL when the video was sent out, and tell them that you have not received it, point out you have received a CC, and and request that it be cancelled, and a new DVD sent out.
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I work as a private hire, I received a PCN for stopping here on York Way. I was renting the vehicle at the time for this contravention and it does not belong to me. The hirer company transferred liability to me as per my Hirer's T&Cs. I may or may not have picked up someone, and that's why I requested footage from TFL.
TFL put the case on hold while they send this 'DVD' to me however I haven't received anything in the post.
Today they sent me a charge certificate demanding payment of £240.
PCN:
https://i.ibb.co/3r50rF8/IMG-3768-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/xStQYjM/IMG-3769.jpg
Charge Certificate:
https://i.ibb.co/vkmczMR/IMG-3770-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Ptjxtpp/IMG-3771.jpg
Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/c2CVMTwULwxFti8v7