On the day the PCN was issued the Pay and Display bay in which the vehicle was parked was suspended from use; as was clearly stated on signage directly adjacent to the marked parking area stating ‘Parking Suspension No Loading North John Street X4 pay & display parking places (Opposite NYL restaurant) 17.05.24 & 18.05.24’:
The appellant claims that no such signage was in place to be seen when they parked, upon which they booked a Phone and Pay parking session (at 12:56 on the 17/05/2024); however the suspension signage (which was on the post next to the Pay & Display machine only a metre or so away from the appellants vehicle) was erected after the end of restriction (18:00) on the 16/06/2024 and before commencement of the restriction (08:00) on the 17/05/2024 – so we are satisfied that the suspension was clearly prescribed when the appellant parked on the 17/05/2024 (again, they booked their parking session at 12:56 – which was several hours after the signage had been erected) and given that it is the responsibility of the motorist to make a reasonable check of a location for any and all parking restrictions when they park – there is no viable reason why the suspension signage [and the information contained within] should not have been noticed, read, and complied with; but unfortunately such was not the case.
It may well be that it was inadvertently missed (which amounts to mitigation) – yet it was nevertheless in place to be seen and it is of note that although the appellant has previously submitted this photograph as some kind of proof that the signage was not in place: which was clearly taken ‘side on’ to the Pay & Display machine and thus is side on to the suspension signage, the thick edge of the suspension sign board and the slightly upturned bottom right corner of the A4 paper on the suspension sign board stating ‘Parking Suspension No Loading North John Street X4 pay & display parking places (Opposite NYL restaurant) 17.05.24 & 18.05.24’ can nevertheless be seen:
upon which we would submit that it was not enough to simply stand with the vehicle and look along the marked parking area; to reiterate, a reasonable check was required to be made and if such a check was made then the [distinctive] signage would have been noticed.
In line with the TRO (132C), the marked parking area in which the appellant was parked is comprised of 4 Pay & Display parking spaces - and the suspension signage adjacent to the marked parking area clearly stated that ‘X4 pay & display parking places’ were suspended. The entirety of 132C was therefore suspended and, ultimately, suspended bays may only be used by those persons authorised to do so under the terms of the suspension and the appellant had no authorisation to park and was thus parked in contravention. We are satisfied that the penalty charge was issued correctly, that the restriction was clearly and correctly prescribed, that the contravention has been established, and that no compelling mitigation/proof has been submitted to warrant cancellation. We therefore request that the appeal be dismissed and that the penalty charge remains payable.
QuoteThe pack I have downloaded online from the tribunal website. Nothing was sent to me directly
I'll let others comment on the emboldened bit - the Council is supposed to send you a copy of the Evidence Pack as well as the Tribunal.
Please post up here the Council's summary of why they think your appeal should be turned down, and any list of contents.
The pack I have downloaded online from the tribunal website. Nothing was sent to me directly
I have a telephone hearing arranged for 6/11/24. Any advice on how I should prep for this? Thanks
Have you received the Council's Evidence Pack? (see my reply#43 above)
Has the Tribunal received written authority from your wife for you to act on her behalf?
I have a telephone hearing arranged for 6/11/24. Any advice on how I should prep for this? Thanks
Your wife signs it as the registered keeper
QuoteAnd put the appealent details as myself?Eh??
John UK has already told you the answer to that in the very same post you repeated.QuoteYour wife, as the registered keeper, is the appellant.the letter from her signed by her is ti give you permission to represent on her behalf.
And put the appealent details as myself?Eh??
Your wife, as the registered keeper, is the appellant.the letter from her signed by her is ti give you permission to represent on her behalf.
QuoteWould the phone hearing not be harder, in case I say the wrong thing?
It would be harder still if the appeal was lost because there was no-one to answer a question from the adjudicator.
Thank you for your response.
Previously on all correspondence I have putting my wife's name under the details and been writing the letters referring to the driver in third person as opposed to using I or me statements. Should I put my details now as the appellant? I'll be the one doing the phone call as I was the driver but car is registered under my wife.
Your wife, as the registered keeper, is the appellant. As per Incandescent's reply on August 1st, she must sign a letter to the tribunal authorising you to act as her representative.
How would I go about doing this? Just a blank word document eg
Dear sirs, please accept this letter from me as the registered keeper giving authority to (name) to act as the representative for the appeal as the sole passenger of the car/the driver
And then just attach it to my appeals in the document?
QuoteWould the phone hearing not be harder, in case I say the wrong thing?
It would be harder still if the appeal was lost because there was no-one to answer a question from the adjudicator.
Thank you for your response.
Previously on all correspondence I have putting my wife's name under the details and been writing the letters referring to the driver in third person as opposed to using I or me statements. Should I put my details now as the appellant? I'll be the one doing the phone call as I was the driver but car is registered under my wife.
Your wife, as the registered keeper, is the appellant. As per Incandescent's reply on August 1st, she must sign a letter to the tribunal authorising you to act as her representative.
Would the phone hearing not be harder, in case I say the wrong thing?
It would be harder still if the appeal was lost because there was no-one to answer a question from the adjudicator.
Thank you for your response.
Previously on all correspondence I have putting my wife's name under the details and been writing the letters referring to the driver in third person as opposed to using I or me statements. Should I put my details now as the appellant? I'll be the one doing the phone call as I was the driver but car is registered under my wife.
Your wife, as the registered keeper, is the appellant. As per Incandescent's reply on August 1st, she must sign a letter to the tribunal authorising you to act as her representative.
QuoteGreat. Would I just in writing or on the phone make the same statements as in my formula representations?
Make sure you choose phone or video hearing (NOT a decision on papers): then you can answer any questions the sdjudicator may ask.
QuoteNo. When you register you can say for the evidence section, that "I reply on my formal representations to the council". You can add stuff later, if anybody here suggests it.'I rely' was meant. The tribunal will be able to see your reps in the Council evidence pack. Once you have a Date for the hearing the council must send you a copy of the Evidence Pack in advance of the hearing. When you have the date let us know here. Also let us and the Tribunal know if you've not received the Pack 5 days before the hearing date.
Is that meant to say "I rely". The tribunal will be able to see my representation to the council from before?
Great. Would I just in writing or on the phone make the same statements as in my formula representations?
No. When you register you can say for the evidence section, that "I reply on my formal representations to the council". You can add stuff later, if anybody here suggests it.'I rely' was meant. The tribunal will be able to see your reps in the Council evidence pack. Once you have a Date for the hearing the council must send you a copy of the Evidence Pack in advance of the hearing. When you have the date let us know here. Also let us and the Tribunal know if you've not received the Pack 5 days before the hearing date.
Is that meant to say "I rely". The tribunal will be able to see my representation to the council from before?
No. When you register you can say for the evidence section, that "I reply on my formal representations to the council". You can add stuff later, if anybody here suggests it.The amount will not increase above £70 if you lose, and if you win, there is nothing to pay. Most adjudications are done by phone these days, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal offer video adjudications.
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/what-to-expect-at-a-hearing/
Great. Would I just in writing or on the phone make the same statements as in my formula representations?
No. When you register you can say for the evidence section, that "I reply on my formal representations to the council". You can add stuff later, if anybody here suggests it.The amount will not increase above £70 if you lose, and if you win, there is nothing to pay. Most adjudications are done by phone these days, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal offer video adjudications.
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/what-to-expect-at-a-hearing/
Great. Would I just in writing or on the phone make the same statements as in my formula representations?
The amount will not increase above £70 if you lose, and if you win, there is nothing to pay. Most adjudications are done by phone these days, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal offer video adjudications.
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/what-to-expect-at-a-hearing/
Maybe I've missed it, it seems they haven't reoffered the discount ant the full penalty of £70. That being the case you might as well appeal to the Adjudicator as you have no financial incentive to do otherwise.
@Swahmad here you go:Dear Liverpool City Council,
I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. I did not see any suspension signs, I paid for parking on my phone, and from the CEO's photos I cannot see any evidence of a suspension sign being either in the vicinity of my vehicle, or more importantly being mounted with the two side wings so at to be properly visible.
I attach a copy of my parking payment receipt and request that the PCN be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
Send this online and don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Thank you very much! I cannot actually find where to submit the representation.The back of the NtO leads one to
@Swahmad here you go:Dear Liverpool City Council,
I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. I did not see any suspension signs, I paid for parking on my phone, and from the CEO's photos I cannot see any evidence of a suspension sign being either in the vicinity of my vehicle, or more importantly being mounted with the two side wings so at to be properly visible.
I attach a copy of my parking payment receipt and request that the PCN be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
Send this online and don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I received the notice.to owner. They've not allowed me to pay the 50% reduced price :/A Notice to Owner never has any discount offer on it, because the right to the discount is only ever on a PCN. However, it is when rejecting representations against a Notice to Owner that many councils re-offer the discount to try to avoid the NtO recipient going to adjudication. For a council it is a PITA to have to prepare an evidence pack and they also have to pay a fee to the adjudicators too.
https://imgur.com/a/FaULXMu
So submit representations against the Notice to Owner as advised earlier.
@Swahmad the notice of rejection will be posted to your wife, so you'll either need a letter of authority from her allowing you to make representations on her behalf, or she'll need to take over.
I received the notice.to owner. They've not allowed me to pay the 50% reduced price :/A Notice to Owner never has any discount offer on it, because the right to the discount is only ever on a PCN. However, it is when rejecting representations against a Notice to Owner that many councils re-offer the discount to try to avoid the NtO recipient going to adjudication. For a council it is a PITA to have to prepare an evidence pack and they also have to pay a fee to the adjudicators too.
https://imgur.com/a/FaULXMu
Is that a letter through the post?Yes, and they rely on the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle to send it out.
So are you the owner, and is the address on the V5 up-to-date in all respects ?
The point here is that under the legislation, the owner of the vehicle has responsibility for paying or appealing all PCNs against the vehicle, and may not have been the driver at the time. So whilst they may have sent you a letter of rejection, they still have to send the Notice to Owner to the registered owner of the vehicle.
Is that a letter through the post?The notice to owner is a statutory document that will be sent by post to the registered keeper as per the DVLA records.
Is that a letter through the post?Yes, and they rely on the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle to send it out.
My appeal has already been rejected. My fear is I've already made an unnecessary admission and so thinking to pay it :/You have not made an appeal, you've only made an informal representation. The next step is to wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge the notice to owner within 14 days the council will almost invariably reoffer the discount, so there's no point in paying now.
My understanding from this post however is that I was wrong to park there but there's no proof of that in the pictures
@Swahmad at this point I suggest you wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge it within 14 days the discount will be reoffered even if the representation is rejected.
You need to be very careful with what you write in the formal representation, the biggest risk you run is making some unnecessary admission. If the council is simply put to proof, they may well lose on that alone.
OP, in the absence of any up to date photos from you we're left with the council's and GSV, and the hotel cum restaurant.
What does GSV show?
3 separate parking places opposite the combined frontage of the hotel and restaurant.
The council's photos appear to show you parked in the third of these in which there's a post with a one-way sign and a traffic sign at right-angles stating 'pay here at machine'. They also show a suspension sign with what appears(when compared with GSV) a telephone box and a payment machine. This places your car on the same parking place opposite the restaurant.
My point about this set up is that the suspension sign does not have three sides, only a single side facing the road and that in combination with the 'pay her sign' which is visible without having to look at anything from the road a motorist could park, approach the machine, see the 'pay here' sign, pay and leave without even having their attention drawn to the suspension sign. Other than their curiosity being aroused by the back of the sign there was no reason for them to look.
Is IMO, a plausible line for a defence.
Why didn't the council place a regular-and for all I know the only mandated form of sign with 'wings'?
Was there any indication on the machine itself that there was a suspension?
See what others think.
QuoteYes I'd submitted an appeal which was been rejected
Please post up your challenge and their rejection: also a GSV link to the location.
+1 and could you take your own photos pl. GSV is a year old and I seem to remember (from last week when I was there) that the signage has changed. As the CEO hasn't bothered to take a photo of your car and the sign, who's to know where the sign was placed - I think it's possible that there isn't a traffic sign in your bay, simply a pole holding a One-Way sign.
Also, when did you park and was the suspension sign in place?
Yes I'd submitted an appeal which was been rejected@Swahmad no, you submitted an informal representation, which is quite different to an appeal.
Yes I'd submitted an appeal which was been rejected
Fine, but PCN, please, all sides as well.
Have you submitted any representations yet ?