Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: rowlando on July 17, 2023, 02:00:47 pm

Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Hippocrates on January 08, 2024, 11:03:34 am
Quote from: Hippocrates on January 07, 2024, 06:44:55 pm
If you made no representations against the EN, yes, to have to pay it.

The 18th is the absolute deadline so I suggest paying it well before then.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Hippocrates on January 07, 2024, 06:44:55 pm
If you made no representations against the EN, yes, to have to pay it.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on January 07, 2024, 04:55:53 pm
So it looks like I've messed things up. I received an enforcement notice on 08/11/2023 but I "filed it" and forgot to reply as life was happening. Here they are:

[attach=1][attach=2]

I received a charge certificate on 03/01/2024. Here it is:

[attach=3][attach=4]

Is it too late? Do I now need to pay £195?

Thanks.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 06:12:03 pm
The process is that you are sent an enforcement notice, you make formal representations against that, and then the council rejects but usually reoffers the discount.

It's only at that stage that you are able to appeal to the tribunal, if you carry on we will help you every step of the way and at the tribunal stage one of us will usually offer to represent you. We cannot guarantee the outcome, but I don't think we've lost a bus lane case since the summer of 2021.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on October 16, 2023, 01:18:51 pm
If I formally challenge, will you guys help me?

I've looked through London Tribunals and found 3 x "being in a bus lane" contraventions that were successfully appealled. 1 (https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1560840,2933826,60,APPEAL&cs=3f3lWSUiTkVEd2YhzF3RMb48C-xI9nrnbwCltfYPHahaRzbBQAKOgqyRSs54PX0QLIVpeQ3g6Fyeq8FSNx0aShg), 2 (https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1562909,2936543,60,APPEAL&cs=32N96jD2L-eGBqub8gmALzSk8MnZ1BSQQNU6-v3qG2XHSaXyAybHcIm7FIUIZunbz8HuCJeH3-_KuxlbOwn45DQ), 3 (https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1561752,2935016,60,APPEAL&cs=3ZT7Kmrr9JmmgFiRuG8mbrx4c7-IqRTmkzeq4X4uymMIblcdCbAGXneyq2Q1nPfhV_sTxgjeaZGH2Bk8ZW1Wibw)


Can I work out if the prescribed device reason will work for me ahead of time? Or is it a roll of the dice?

Also, I noticed a lot of successful appeals have this reason:

Quote
The Enforcement Authority has informed me that they will not contest your appeal against the Penalty Charge Notice(s) mentioned above.

The Chief Adjudicator has therefore allowed your appeal without considering your evidence or any details of the case. You are not liable for any further charge(s) and, where appropriate, any amounts already paid will be refunded by the Enforcement Authority.

Good outcome, but why does the enforcement authority back down?

If my odds are more than 50% of a successful appeal, I'm happy to continue.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Incandescent on October 11, 2023, 01:05:54 am
Quote from: cp8759 on October 11, 2023, 12:24:39 am
@Incandescent no, this is a London bus lane PCN so in the first instance we need to wait for the enforcement notice and then make formal representations against that.

The council has confirmed that:

All our ANPR cameras are LaneWatch MARK 3.

Of course whether they could prove that in a hearing is another matter.
Silly me, of course it is !  This just shows you what a Dog's Breakfast the whole of traffic law is in this country.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on October 11, 2023, 12:24:39 am
@Incandescent no, this is a London bus lane PCN so in the first instance we need to wait for the enforcement notice and then make formal representations against that.

The council has confirmed that:

All our ANPR cameras are LaneWatch MARK 3.

Of course whether they could prove that in a hearing is another matter.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Incandescent on October 10, 2023, 12:25:15 am
So, by re-offering the discount, Merton have given you an unenviable choice; pay-up now and be done, or go to London Tribunals and risk another £65.  The wide white line may be faded, but there are plenty of signs at intervals along the bus lane. It is certainly not a slam-dunk win situation.

Of course if the CCTV camera is not an approved device, it becomes slam-dunk !
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on October 09, 2023, 09:43:18 pm
Merton Parking Services have replied about my PCN. I have attached the PDF.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on September 26, 2023, 11:49:05 pm
There is no absolute rule for bus lane PCNs, but it can take up to 2 / 3 months. If they go over that, it opens a route of appeal based on undue delay.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on September 26, 2023, 01:25:48 pm
Nothing received in the post.

Do you know when I should expect to hear something?
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: GRYOUT on September 26, 2023, 09:06:42 am
OP - have you heard back from the council on this one at all?
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on August 29, 2023, 10:52:25 am
I haven't heard back from Merton Council. Will post here when I do.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: GRYOUT on August 29, 2023, 10:47:41 am
Fight it all the way

How are you getting on with it?
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Hippocrates on July 22, 2023, 02:00:54 pm
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1167141/approved-devices-granted-to-manufacturers.ods

Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 12:15:09 pm
Keep those screenshots, they may be useful later on.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 21, 2023, 11:38:00 am
When I appeal, I have to choose from a list of reasons (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOUdTtx-cySYO0_gZR3llBZW_qr1iwd5bdlS9rgZZnqnyZ_SyxJnSV_7LP4QAXXFw/photo/AF1QipP31P3Rpc6JLfVOxtB3YuZIm12E23n8EOFRAYXJ?key=alE2LXNMYTUxSFVBdjctQ1hqRUdwS0ZqY01FRjR3).

After I choose "I did not realise I was in a bus lane" I see this screen (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOUdTtx-cySYO0_gZR3llBZW_qr1iwd5bdlS9rgZZnqnyZ_SyxJnSV_7LP4QAXXFw/photo/AF1QipM4bKhvPcGIdzIkPCjhHyLDIculGILnlxejGpew?key=alE2LXNMYTUxSFVBdjctQ1hqRUdwS0ZqY01FRjR3). The text on this page includes:

"The markings for bus lanes make them easily distinguishable from the rest of the road. As it is the driver's responsibility to be aware of and obey traffic signage and directions at all times and to know and understand the Highway Code, drivers should be aware that they cannot drive in a bus lane."

I think this paragraph only goes to serve my case. The bus lane is not easily distinguishable.

Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 21, 2023, 11:25:03 am
Thanks both. I'll go with this:


Dear Sirs / Madams,

Ref: PCN MT87044495 VRM LC62 DVR

I appeal against the issue of this PCN. My challenge is based on these points:

The bus lane markings are faded.
Very dark road (street lighting does not look very effective)
Heavy rain

The combination of these facts means it was impossible for me to see the bus lane markings and the signs.

Your own video evidence and photos demonstrate the poor visibility of the road markings.

Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/RpTYD41NgPFUuNx47 - shows the faded lines as of August 2022. I have attached photographs of the location to show the road markings are even more faded a year later. These photos were taken on July 19, 2023.

For comparison, I have attached an image of a bus lane that has clear markings. This was taken in a nearby area. If the road markings on Wimbledon Hill Road were maintained I would have been in a position to see the bus lane at night, in rain and in poor light.

Please cancel the PCN accordingly.

Yours faithfully
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Pastmybest on July 21, 2023, 11:02:46 am
I agree with CP just give your account for now, Make sure you say you could not see the signs or lines given the poor visibility
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 10:28:11 am
If your passenger is going to provide a witness statement this would have to be a separate document that identifies the witness, giving their name and address.

To be honest given the CCTV footage I don't think it's necessary, but if you're keen on that I can give you a draft.

What you've put in your draft is just anonymous hearsay, which even in the informal context of a PCN representation is worth basically zero.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 21, 2023, 09:10:08 am
Here's my draft appeal:

Dear Sirs / Madams,
Ref: PCN MT87044495 VRM LC62 DVR

I appeal against the issue of this PCN. My challenge is based on these points:


The combination of these facts means it was impossible for me to see the bus lane markings. My passenger has provided a statement to back this up:

"I am also a driver and was sitting in the passenger seat at the time of the infraction. It was dark and raining heavily and there was poor street lighting. I didn't see the lines of the bus lane and was not aware we had entered it. I can see from the video and photographs provided with the PCN that the lines are barely visible especially given the weather conditions at the time."

Your own video evidence and photos demonstrate the poor visibility of the road markings.

Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/RpTYD41NgPFUuNx47 - shows the faded lines as of August 2022. I have attached photographs of the location to show the road markings are even more faded a year later. These photos were taken on July 19, 2023.

For comparison, I have attached an image of a bus lane that has clear markings. This was taken in a nearby area. If the road markings on Wimbledon Hill Road were maintained I would have been in a position to see the bus lane at night, in rain and in poor light.

Please cancel the PCN accordingly.

Yours faithfully
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 12:01:24 am
Rowlando I'd suggest you post a draft based on the faded markings and we'll tidy it up for you.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Pastmybest on July 20, 2023, 04:46:17 pm
no but absent the visibility is still not good enough
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: John U.K. on July 20, 2023, 02:23:41 pm
Quote
I cannot see any external lighting for the signs
- PastMyBest

Speed limit is 20mph - lighting still required??
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: Pastmybest on July 20, 2023, 01:04:44 pm
I cannot see any external lighting for the signs and they are both, particularly the regulatory sign at the start of the solid white line is well hidden by foliage, the line itself is clearly not visible in the dark and wet. Given the video you have a good chance at tribunal 
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: GRYOUT on July 19, 2023, 04:58:39 pm
Wimbledon's road markings can't be legally enforceable imo.

I too have a 34J given for straying outside the broadway. In dark or wet conditions, they are impossible to see.

I've noticed shortly after the broadway, they started repainting the road markings shortly after I received my PCN. I managed to get photos of the road markings a day or so after I received the PCN just in case they try to pull a funny one.

They referenced Google images for me too, from 2021 - even in 2021 I'd question the legality of them. Nowadays, professionally removed road markings appear more visible than those around Wimbledon.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 04:29:03 pm
Quote from: rowlando on July 19, 2023, 04:19:27 pm
Are faded bus lane markings useful in an appeal?
Yes they are but I've also asked a couple of other experts to have a look for you.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 19, 2023, 04:19:27 pm
For me, at that time of night and weather, the main issue was the bus lane markings were not visible. The signage is moot if I can't see the line. Not sure if that's a valid defence.

Also, visiting today, I noticed the camera was position only a few metres before the end of the bus lane. I was turning left, so moved left as I approached the turning, over a bus lane I couldn't see.

Are faded bus lane markings useful in an appeal?
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 04:11:12 pm
The signage doesn't look that bad to me but I'm going to ask one someone else to have a look.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 19, 2023, 04:08:29 pm
sorry, try again
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 04:05:05 pm
Plotted map doesn't work, I get this error emssage:

This map is no longer available because it was moved to the trash. Please contact the owner to restore access.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 19, 2023, 02:17:20 pm
Here are the photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tJWiveq5KY6xVY5Q7

And here they are plotted on a map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=13CZ_c9XJjO9iIcheeO3N226PfdxewCY&usp=sharing
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 09:46:43 am
Once you have the photos we use all the information available to devise a strategy. What I've outlined so far gives you a possible route to victory, it's just not a sure thing. If the signage is less than adequate, then on the whole your odds are quite good.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 18, 2023, 09:15:45 pm
I will cycle to Wimbledon Hill Road tomorrow and get photos of signage.

I'm not sure what to do with the information posted so far.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 18, 2023, 06:23:51 pm
The council's certificate says:

(https://i.imgur.com/VZFU3fU.png)

The council has also confirmed this:

(https://i.imgur.com/AJpjaeY.png)

It would need to prove that the two are one and the same, which it might or might not do. If it doesn't, then it cannot show that the camera footage is admissible.
Title: Re: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: cp8759 on July 17, 2023, 09:24:47 pm
Google street view is likely out of date given the amount of roadworks, but it suggests the signage at the start of the bus lane is there: https://goo.gl/maps/XNzJmwdDMaEM1xp66

Can you get photos to show the current signage?

There is also a possible issue with the CCTV approval for the camera which I am investigating, so in the meantime you might as well put in representations during the first 14 days as this will get the discount extended.
Title: Merton, code 34J being in a bus lane, Wimbledon Hill Road SW19, Date of notice 10/07/23
Post by: rowlando on July 17, 2023, 02:00:47 pm
Hello there!

You know, my dear friend Google Maps (who, by the way, is still on probation with me) suggested that I venture off my usual path and into uncharted territory, and oh, did I fall into the sly traps laid by our very own Big Bad Wolf, the Merton Council. Caught red-handed by the lurking Trap 34J, the most notorious of them all!

Now, one might argue that as a mature adult, I should have known better, right? But here's the twist! It was a night darker than a black cat in a coal mine, rain pouring down like a waterfall in a soda commercial, and the road markings? I've seen ghosts more visible than them!
The evidence, my fine compatriots, is there for all to see. Attached, find my PCN and the compelling evidence from the candid camera - it's as if they knew I was going to be the star of the night! Watch the suspense unravel at

https://youtu.be/_qEuSO3ihJo.


(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689597685/PCN/pcn-page-1-address-redacted.jpg)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689598132/PCN/pcn-page2.jpg)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689597684/PCN/image1.jpg)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689597684/PCN/image2.jpg)



Feast your eyes upon the scene of the crime, https://goo.gl/maps/RpTYD41NgPFUuNx47. Wimbledon Hill Road was my fateful journey, and I was but a wayward traveler gently edging left, eyeing the inviting turn into Woodside. But alas, the elusive bus lane markings remained as hidden as the Cheshire cat's grin.

Fret not! I am not of this land, but a kind-hearted stranger on Facebook (God bless the Internet) lent a helping hand by clicking pictures of the current road markings, both in broad daylight and a photo of a pristine bus lane nearby. After all, nothing says "Gotcha!" better than a solid comparison, eh?


(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689597684/PCN/daytime.jpg)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/rowlando/image/upload/v1689597685/PCN/clearmarkings.jpg)


So, dear friends, do we stand a chance against the wicked council? Could we win this epic battle, much like David and Goliath? Gather your thoughts, for every word counts in this fight for justice!

P.S. ChatGPT turned my bland message into something a bit more witty!