Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 04:59:29 pm


Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on March 13, 2025, 07:57:17 pm
Sorry not to respond sooner. Amazing outcome. I wish I had been there. I cannot thank cp8759 for his excellent counsel and service. Another victory against ridiculous PCNs.

I love this forum.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Hippocrates on January 10, 2025, 12:25:22 pm
Whereas the Appellant has provided me with five annotated Google maps, the Authority has requested that I look
up Google maps and provide the rebuttal evidence myself.


I wager that went down like a lead balloon!
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on January 09, 2025, 07:23:44 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xci0wKI-vmVorhLle7GDdeL8UDxKHjag/view).
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on November 10, 2024, 12:35:29 pm
@Lefeuvre76 well you have nothing to lose in carrying on so obviously you should appeal, I've dropped you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: stamfordman on November 02, 2024, 10:20:52 pm
This case in Albemarle Road was refused but it looks like only the markings challenged.

---------

2210423759

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued for the contravention of parking outside bay markings.
xxxxx appeals as she states that the bay markings were so faded and unclear that it was not possible to see any bay markings particularly on a sunny day. xxxxx provides photographs of the bay.
The bays in Albermarle Road are all numbered. The civil enforcement officer noted that the appellant’s car was parked in both bay 15 and 16. The photographs show the line between the bays is under the appellant’s car. I am satisfied that the bays are clearly marked. The local authority also provides images from google street view which show that the markings between each bay.
I find that the contravention occurred. I refuse this appeal.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2024, 07:44:16 pm
Pay the fine ? Are you kidding ?  They are asking for the full PCN penalty of £60, yet this is also the maximum penalty at the adjudicators, so it is a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals where your case is very strong, because the penalty is fixed and there are no additional costs at all. In fact I would go so far as to say I bet they don't contest an appeal at LT. So bad is their case you would have a good argument for a costs application.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on November 02, 2024, 03:06:53 pm
I have now had a reply and they are sticking to their guns. Essentially it doesn't matter that it was a Sunday so no signs were necessary. The main thrust seems to be that despite their acknowledgment that the markings are faded (an understatement) the car was parked outside the lines to the PCN is enforceable.

I would be very grateful for your thoughts on what I should do next? Pay the fine and be done with it or go to court.

I attach the entire letter for your consideration. @cp8759 your input has been invaluable so far and it is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom.

https://ibb.co/8bQ308n

https://ibb.co/hDHw2vK

https://ibb.co/N7HM3gh

https://ibb.co/bmv9pV2

https://ibb.co/zRHLfVn

https://ibb.co/3pRgmJJ

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on October 05, 2024, 11:00:39 pm
@Lefeuvre76 frankly I'd just resubmit your informal representations as your formal representations.

Again make representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: boggler on October 05, 2024, 06:05:45 pm
I had one of these rejected by Bromley Council at the initial stage last year. I think they just cut and paste . It was only at the second stage (where you are now) that they backed down. I think it was the first time they had looked at it properly. If I were you, I'd also be arguing that this case is vexatious as it was clearly a Sunday outside restricted times and therefore the operative was seeking financial gain rather than enforcing effective parking control measures.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on October 05, 2024, 02:20:32 pm
I have finally been sent the Notice To Owner after weeks. I attach links to all 3 pages of what I was sent. I was unable to post the images directly.

I really appreciate all the time and effort people have put in to advising me so far so I would be grateful for everyone's input on what the next steps would be now please?

https://ibb.co/kMLyxLr - PAGE 1

https://ibb.co/vwvSMLj - PAGE 2

https://ibb.co/yBZzz8B - PAGE 3.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on August 31, 2024, 10:30:50 pm
@Lefeuvre76 just wait for the notice to owner and let us know as soon as you get it.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Hippocrates on August 31, 2024, 08:48:43 pm
Their history re their bus lane cases precedes them. They need fully-trained parking appeals staff. And a magnanimous council leader.

Another open secret: their moving traffic PCNs currently are flawed too.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: roythebus on August 31, 2024, 08:23:12 pm
Like most other government forms, no space for "it's our ****-up" or similar.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Hippocrates on August 31, 2024, 08:15:15 pm
First line is bolleaux.  Wait for the Notice to Owner is my advice.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on August 31, 2024, 07:20:39 pm
Here is the second page as requested.

https://postimg.cc/bZgnrr9w

Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Hippocrates on August 31, 2024, 02:27:56 pm
+1 Plus:

This will be another case for the Tribunal regarding their website grounds:

Parking

Not parked correctly within the marking of the bay or space

We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.

Pay and Display (P&D) or Cashless

The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.

Select a reason:

I had a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket 
I made a mistake when purchasing my Pay and Display (P&D) ticket 
I paid by phone or app 
I was in a rush and forgot to pay 
The Pay and Display machine was not working and I couldn't purchase a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket

Permits

The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.

Select a reason:

I had a permit 
Blue Badge

The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges

Select a reason:

I had a Blue Badge on display 
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately

Select a reason:
I became unwell while driving 
I parked at the location because my child needed the toilet 
I stopped because of an emergency situation 
My passenger became unwell while I was driving 
My vehicle had broken down 
My vehicle was cloned 
My vehicle was stolen 
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) wrongly / unfairly issued

Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.

Select a reason:
I have already paid the PCN 
I only stopped for a few minutes 
I was not the owner of the vehicle 
I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle 
I was unaware of the rules 
The vehicle was on hire to someone else 
There was nowhere else to park 

Other

Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.

Select a reason:
I did not cause an obstruction 
I didn't see any signs or lines 
I was loading / unloading at the time 
I was picking up / dropping off a passenger 
My vehicle is a taxi 


None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
Any other reason 

******

Search

Type something in the box below like 'disabled badge' or 'illness' to search for an appeal reason
Search for an appeal reason :
procedural impropriety
Suggested reasons for 'procedural impropriety'
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******

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Type something in the box below like 'disabled badge' or 'illness' to search for an appeal reason
Search for an appeal reason :
penalty exceeded amount
Suggested reasons for 'penalty exceeded amount'
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*****

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vehicle was taken without consent
Suggested reasons for 'vehicle was taken without consent'
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The last three attempts are statutory grounds! As are the ones below.

I am free if this goes to the Tribunal. I am pretty bored at present.  ;D  I have used the Scrabble metaphor once with Mr Harman.  ;D 2240304431

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/code-27-royal-borough-of-kingston-upon-thames/msg33601/#msg33601

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w-QOHu0eV3-al1zvueKR71mnptGgx1c6/view

More:


Search
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Search for an appeal reason :
invalid traffic order
Suggested reasons for 'invalid traffic order'
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******

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Search for an appeal reason :
had ceased to be its owner before the alleged contravention occurre
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******
Search
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Search for an appeal reason :
became its owner after the alleged contravention occurred
Suggested reasons for 'became its owner after the alleged contravention occurred'
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*****

Search
Type something in the box below like 'disabled badge' or 'illness' to search for an appeal reason
Search for an appeal reason :
at the time that the alleged contravention occurred, the vehicle in question was in the control of a person who did not have the consent of the owner
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Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on August 31, 2024, 01:58:05 pm
Letter - https://flic.kr/p/2qcF9ku

There are two pages to the letter but the only thing of note on the second page is, "No signage is required for this type of restriction." before going on to explain how I can pay the PCN.
@Lefeuvre76 please post all the pages of the rejection.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: H C Andersen on August 31, 2024, 01:43:24 pm
I wish them well with this at adjudication.

As regards 'There are two pages to the letter but the only thing of note on the second page is, "No signage is required for this type of restriction." before going on to explain how I can pay the PCN.' let us be the judges of what's important and what is not and pl post this page and all pages of future notices/correspondence!
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on August 31, 2024, 01:34:02 pm
The inference from the council seems to be that the signs were irrelevant. You cannot park outside the lines at any time, despite ignoring the fact that the signs are almost rubbed out.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: H C Andersen on August 28, 2024, 07:31:46 pm
OP, what have lines got to do with matters?

According to the traffic sign in evidence, the restriction applies Mon-Sat.

The PCN alleges a contravention on a Sunday.

Outside the hours and days on the traffic sign IMO it is as if the road is an unmarked and unrestricted length of street. It is NOT a parking place without charging requirements, it is not a parking place.

Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on August 28, 2024, 07:20:25 pm
Hello,

I've finally received a letter back from Bromley Council nearly three months after I contested it.

I am surprised to find out that they have decided not to cancel the PCN. I have attached the letter in full.

Surely you have to have clearly marked lines to enforce this and clearly this wasn't the case here. Please could you advise what to do next? I know it is only £30 but I would like to fight it if you think that is sensible. I would be grateful to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

If the lines were very clearly marked then fine but they aren't. The images clearly show the lines are almost non-existent.

Once again I am very grateful for your input. My hit rate on this forum (in its previous incarnation) is 3 PCNs and 3 victories. Hoping to continue that.

Letter - https://flic.kr/p/2qcF9ku

There are two pages to the letter but the only thing of note on the second page is, "No signage is required for this type of restriction." before going on to explain how I can pay the PCN.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 07, 2024, 02:33:05 pm
This is incredible thank you. I have sent it all off, photographed everything and I await their response. I am the registered keeper and have the V5. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: cp8759 on June 07, 2024, 01:51:32 pm
What bay markings?

(https://i.imgur.com/FlYGLzM.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7oRxz3a.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/T1Nafed.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BfCPU9I.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vSaUtSl.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/V8RkIGU.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/L56QRzW.jpeg)

Draft reps:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. Under regulation 18(1) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 if the authority makes an order requiring vehicles to be parked in any particular way, the authority is under a duty to provide adequate guidance to motorists by means of adequate signs. The photos taken by the CEO show that while there might have been bay markings in the past, these have now vanished and all that is left is some numbering next to the kerb, which I am guessing might be old bay numbers but in isolation do not amount to a recognised traffic sign under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

There are also no upright signs informing motorists of the requirement to park in any particular way.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. I remind you that where the contravention did not occur you must cancel the PCN, you have no discretion about this.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via https://parking.bromley.gov.uk/live-3sc-user/ (you might have to skip a chatbot they've introduced to try and dissuade you but there's always a button for "skipt chatbot" or "I don't need any help" which will take you to the representations page) and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Also please confirm whether you're the registered keeper and have the V5C.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Incandescent on June 03, 2024, 11:33:03 am
Although the bays are numbered there is nothing on the sign to demand parking in individual bays. In addition, there are no parking restrictions on Sundays.
So write a challenge on those lines. This is only an informal challenge, not a formal representation, and almost all councils just reply with a Fob-Off letter, but it gives us time to investigate further.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 03, 2024, 10:13:23 am
Would be really grateful if someone could help. I think I have put up everything possible.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 10:58:59 pm
Their images.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 10:58:07 pm
Here's the unredacted ticket front and back and right way up with information from their website.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: John U.K. on June 01, 2024, 06:27:35 pm
Yes, that is the back of the PCN. Any chance of posting both sides of the unredacted PCN the right way up?

Are there any photos on the Council website? See - https://parking.bromley.gov.uk/live-3sc-user/

https://maps.app.goo.gl/haQPaKA2ofk4mLNK9

what is the number of the bay you were allegedly partly parked in?


Note that you have a PCN , not for failure to pay (which would be easier to challenge, but for not being parked within bay markings. I suspect you begin with a simple challenge that the signage shows no requirement to park within the markings,and that the sign does not apply on Sundays, but see what others say.

Please post your draft challenge here for comment before submitting to Council.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:55:27 pm
Is it this?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:51:36 pm
Please post up remainder of PCN and a GSV link to the location.

See 
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

for guidance.
Sorry what is a reminder of the PCN?
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:50:53 pm
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ejXg8EyR57iBpyBs5
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:48:17 pm
Last one.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: John U.K. on June 01, 2024, 05:47:45 pm
Please post up remainder of PCN and a GSV link to the location.

See 
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

for guidance.
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:46:48 pm
Another image.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 05:45:08 pm
More images.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Parking in Bromley borough on a Sunday. Can I fight this?!
Post by: Lefeuvre76 on June 01, 2024, 04:59:29 pm
Last Sunday 26th May, our car was parked outside a supermarket in Beckenham.

There are parking restrictions there from Monday to Saturday but no restrictions on a Sunday.

Our car (and the three parked behind it as you can see from the images) got a ticket for parking outside a bay.

I would like to fight this ticket as it was a Sunday so surely these restrictions are not in place? Also as you can see from the photos the lines on the road are now very faint and not easy to see. I think she did park 'over the lines' but only because the three cars behind her had also done so.


I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this. I wonder why Bromley enforcement officers are even out on Sundays when the restrictions are not in place on a Sunday...the fact he managed to give out 3 tickets in a line in less than 10 minutes feels suspicious to me.

[attachment deleted by admin]