Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Andy6527 on July 17, 2023, 10:20:50 am
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Basically, this process didn't work for me, and I'm not sure how it could work at all.
Sorry to say, but it didn't work because it appears you ignored the advice given here. In your case, in August (2023) you were advised after receiving the 2 Notices of Enforcement as follows:
You can check the outstanding penalty amount from anywhere in the world. Once it goes up to £204 you know a Order for Recovery has been issued. At that point you have 21 days to email the statutory declaration to the traffic enforcement centre, so one or two weeks abroad are not an issue as long as you deal with it promptly when you get back.
That the issue progressed to Notices of Enforcement must mean that you did not and, as feared, you did not receive the Orders for Recovery.
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Hello,
Did you receive anything in the post yet?
If not, can you contact the enforcement authority with your VRM, and ask if they can find any Live PCNs for your vehicle?
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Hi, I know this is resurrecting an old thread.
Basically, this process didn't work for me, and I'm not sure how it could work at all.
In the end, Enfied Council just sent their side of it to the court and stated that they sent out the PCNs, and that's the end of it. Of course the court took the council's side, I lost and had to pay up.
At the end of the day, the council will always say they sent out the PCNs, and the courts will always take the councils word over mine, so there was no point in going through the entire process.
This has come back to my mind recently as the other week I got flashed by a traffic light camera, and I am waiting for the NIP to arrive. The 14 days are nearly up and I have not received anything, so now I'm worried, what if this happens again and I do not receive anything?
Is there anything I can do in the meantime if I think I have got a ticket but not received a NIP?
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Basically standard working saying that the information would be added to the case notes, and in the meantime the notices will be frozen at the current ammount. It said that this could take up to 56 days.
That's just standard wording that applies to in-time representations, it does not have any application for a PCN that's progressed to OfR and beyond.
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Nothing really transpired during the exchange, I just emailed the parking team at Enfield Council the facts of the case as per what has been discussed here in the way of additional background information for when they recieve anything from the TEC.
The response claims be be an automated response, rather than any dialogue with an actual person at the council. Basically standard working saying that the information would be added to the case notes, and in the meantime the notices will be frozen at the current ammount. It said that this could take up to 56 days.
I was just concerned about the wording around if payment had already been made, as is the case, as I was pressured by the bailiff to make payment on the spot, and the council would close the case.
Would the council not then see this as a final payment of all outstanding money and therefore close the case as completed?
I can log onto the parking website, and the PCN is still active, the option to make a payment has disappeared, and it does say the the council have received additional information in relation to the PCN, so looks like it has not been closed yet.
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We've no idea what transpired during this exchange.
Does that mean, because I have paid the baliff already, the council will not take this any further and close the case?
No, as already explained. If your application to TEC is accepted then TEC would cancel the OfR(the warrant therefore falls away) and direct the council to cancel the Charge Certificate and PCN.
See paragraph 7 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted
The council could serve a new PCN. I think they're only obliged to refund all monies paid in excess of the initial penalties but if you made successful reps even these would be refunded.
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I contacted Enfield Council by email setting out the details of the case so far, explaining that I had made a Statutory Declaration via the TEC.
I received an automated message from the Council saying that the relevant notice would be put on hold at is current amount until they respond, however, they go on to say that if payment is received before we respond to your correspondence the Council will consider the matter closed.
Does that mean, because I have paid the baliff already, the council will not take this any further and close the case?
I had to pay the bailiff under duress, on the understanding that if I win my case, any money paid would be refunded.
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thankfully, they only charged one off £235 for the "visit" rather than £235 per PCN.
I think that when enforcing several warrants simultaneously they're only allowed to levy one enforcement fee.
..It is important to note that if the enforcement agent is enforcing more than one debt, he should only charge one ‘enforcement stage’ fee. He should’t apply ‘multiple’ charges.
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Ok, thank you, I understand.
I was hoping, and had been told somewhere that there was a four day working time for TEC to review the SD and contact the council to put hold to the enforcement order. This was however incorrect, the processing time by the TEC is 10 days, so would not happen in time to stop the bailiff.
The total of the cost being recovered pre-baliff was £1,100 so not a small amount, thankfully, they only charged one off £235 for the "visit" rather than £235 per PCN.
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https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014
In simple terms:
Warrant issued; passed by council to bailiff for enforcement. Enforcement occurs in two main stages:
1. They write to the debtor and give them 7 clear days to pay: £75 (Compliance Stage Fee) is added to the debt for this service;
2. If payment is not made then an enforcement officer may visit the premises with a view to taking control of goods and add a further £235 Enforcement Fee for their time and trouble.
So, a likely council penalty of circa £200 pre-bailiffs is then dwarfed by £310 of fees.
There is no purpose served by not paying a Notice of Enforcement, one just increases the downside risk without changing the likelihood of paying.
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The OP did contact me for assistance. Not receiving either the PCN or the Order for Recovery is most unusual and it is now for the council to consider his Out of Time Application.
The OOT forms were submitted to TEC by email on 1st February and the 'cut of' date for making payment was 9th February. Even allowing for delays at TEC, it should be expected that enforcement would be have been placed 'on hold' by the 9th Feb. Unfortunately, that did not happen and a visit was made today (12th February).
The OP called TEC. They confirmed that they had received the completed forms on 1st February but that they are currently facing a 10 day delay in actually processing applications.
As TEC is part of the Northampton Court system, this is frankly a shocking situation and will cause a significant injustice to any motorist receiving a Notice of Enforcement (or visit etc).
Just to confirm, if a motorist is forced to make payment, he will receive a full refund if a Out of Time Application is accepted. The local authority would re-issue the PCN allowing for payment to be made at the earlier discounted rate.
Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/)
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Is it too late for me now, I have settled the debt now, not sure what the compliance stage fee is.
If my OOT submission is denied, what happens next, and is this capped at £75 per PCN?
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Sorry I missed this thread and my advice is now too late for you, but hopefully not for others who might read this thread.
When an owner receives a Notice of Enforcement they should pay it.
Why?
Because it caps their liability at the £75 Compliance Stage fee and avoids a further £235 per PCN being added.
Paying has NO effect on any application to TEC, this is a parallel process in which the decision is NOT contingent upon whether the debt has been settled.
Out of time application succeeds = all monies refunded;
OOT fails = liability capped.
Why not submit an OOT instead of paying?
Because TEC delays do not affect the enforcement timetable and therefore with current delays at 10 days or more an owner would be liable for the £235 Enforcement fee (due 8 clear days after NoE received) before TEC even registers the application and notifies the council.
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Well, that went well didn't it >:(
Just had the bailiff knocking on my door.
So, the enforcement notice only gave me only one week to pay before sending the bailiff round, I submitted the Statutory Declarations on the 1st of Feb, but I was advised by the TEC that they require 10 working days to process, so nothing got sent to the council to put a hold on the enforcement.
The date was the 9th of February, which was Friday, bailiff knocked at my door at 08:00 today, Monday the 12th.
I was told by the bailiff that if I made the payment now and my appeal was sucessful I would be able to claim my money back, not sure if that's true or not, but I did make the payment of £1,300 so lets hope that it is the case.
Otherwise, just have to take it on the chin but that's a lot of money to pay for what should really have been only £260 for the four original tickets.
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I did check this quite often initially, then I hadn't checked for a while, about 8 months have passed since the original contravention date, so I kind of thought that they hadn't taken it any further by that stage.
The TEC told me that the OfR was made around 27th November, and I hadn't checked it at that time, and again, they should have sent this through the post giving me the opportunity to submit a SD.
The council is Enfield Council.
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How did you manage to miss this advice and create an awful mess for yourself.
You can check the outstanding penalty amount from anywhere in the world. Once it goes up to £204 you know a Order for Recovery has been issued. At that point you have 21 days to email the statutory declaration to the traffic enforcement centre, so one or two weeks abroad are not an issue as long as you deal with it promptly when you get back.
Have you mention which council this is?
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I might go as far as saying it adds credibility. One piece of missing post, could be due to an issue with the postal system, but not 8, it points to there being a bigger issue somewhere. Especially as the Charge Certificates and Enforcement Notices did get delivered OK.
The fact that I paid the two PCNs from the 27th April on time, which was after these other contraventions occurred, would also be in my favour, why pay the last one and not the ones before, makes no sense? And then why would I not have submitted the Statutory Declaration when I reviewed the OfR if I had received it?
Hopefully it doesn't come to an N244, but if it does, I am happy to represent myself in court over this.
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If the TEC refuse your OOT applications then you will have to submit an N244 application for review by a district judge. This costs, for each PCN, £255 for a hearing in person or £108 for decision based on the papers. And is non-refundable unless you qualify for fee remission, so unemployed and similar.
If the judge refuses your application then you still have to pay the bailiff, so it's a gamble.
Eight discrete pieces of post lost by Royal Mail, lacks credibility. What would you say to the judge to explain what has happened?
Hopefully you won't get to the N244 stage. What did BAO advise you to put on the PE2 form?
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I have spoken to the good people at BAO who provided an excellent service. For a fee, they can complete the forms for you, which I chose to do for one set, both PE2 and PE3, I can apply the same justification wording to the remaining forms.
The problem with using a County Court to sign the forms is, especially where I am, there is a booking system, I can't even get through to the booking line at my local CC, so not optimistic that I will be able to get a same day appoitment, my local solicitor only charged £5 per form, so with it in the end for such a small fee.
What are the next steps of Enfield deny my request? do I get an opportunity to take this back to court?
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Do you mean that you've already sent the completed PE2 & PE3 forms to the TEC? If so what did you put on the PE2 form in the "reasons" box? Did you get advice from BAO?
Enfield can and likely will oppose your OOT applications, so it's important that the reasons for being late are optimised.
Also be aware that you don't have to go to a solicitor. The forms can be witnessed at any convenient County Court. The County Courts have court officers appointed for this purpose and there is no fee. Phone and check opening hours first. A solicitor or a magistrate will charge a fee.
If you submit properly completed forms to the TEC before 16.00pm on a working day then the TEC will/should inform Enfield Council that SDs & OOTs have been submitted, on the same day. Else the next working day. Enfield will have to freeze the bailiff enforcement immediately pending a decision by the TEC which may take several weeks. I don't know what the current turnaround is.
Also please confirm that you are the registered keeper of the car?
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I called the TEC this morning, and they pretty much confirmed what you have said, I need to complete both the PE2 and PE3 forms, get them countersigned by a solicitor and email them to the TEC, one email per PCN.
I have now done this, they are saying that their turnaround time is 10 working days, and then the council would take another working day to notify the collection agency to put the bailiffs on hold pending their investigation. The deadline for payment of the enforcement order is 9th February, so it's tight, but assuming that even if the payment date of 9th February is missed, it will take some time before the bailiff comes knocking.
Regarding the address, I don't think its that that's incorrect, something is going wrong within their processing.
I initially received two PCNs which I paid, these were for a contravention after these ones discussed here
I then received Charge Certificates for the four that were missing PCNs, so they had the correct address for those.
Then there was the Notice of Enforcement for all four, which arrived at the correct address.
So, I am missing 4 x PCNs and 4 x OfRs, that's pretty strange.
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Just to be clear. You need two forms for each PCN.
One of the forms is the Statutory Declaration itself, form PE3.
The second is an application to file a statutory declaration out of time, form PE2. Out of time means late, beyond the normally allowed timeframe. This needs to be very well worded or Enfield will object and the TEC will refuse to revoke the Orders for Recovery and the Charge Certs.
Don't just assume that addresses must be correct. Dig out the V5c for the car and check.
Phone BAO if you don't get a response via email. Make sure you point BAO to your thread on here.
Did you call the Traffic Enforcement Centre? What did they say.
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Thanks, I did click the link provided above for BAO so hopefully they get back to me with something.
On the normal Statuary Declaration form, you just tick the box with the reason you are making the declaration, in this case original PCN not received.
For a late SD, it's different form, and you are only asked the reason for the late submission, in this case not having received the RfO.
I still can't work out why these documents went "missing" makes no sense. As I said, I received two, which I promptly paid, so they must have all correct car and address details.
These Charge Certificates have different reference numbers to the ones I paid.
Basically they are all in pairs, one for each direction once a week on the same LTN. My wife used that route for work in a school she did once a week, so there and back was two contraventions. She did this for about three weeks, until we received a PCN, which we paid and did not go that route again.
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08:00am to 17:00pm. Best try in the morning, I doubt if you'll get through in the evening.
Make sure you contact the genuine Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) and not one of the copycats that come up on a Google search.
Ask the TEC when the debts were first registered and when were the warrants granted and were the addresses ever changed. The fact that you now have the bailiff Notices of Enforcement suggests that warrants might be fairly recent. In which case there's a long delay in progression from Charge Certs to Bailiff.
Your big issue is what to put on the application to file an SD out of time, form PE2 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe2-application-to-file-a-statutory-declaration-out-of-time). BAO are the experts at that.
One hard to explain issue is that the missing PCNs and OfRs were supposedly sent around 8-9 months apart.
You paid two other PCNs from last March. Check their reference numbers. Do the Charge Certs and NoEs match either of the paid PCNs? And were they also the same address as now?
Are all four NoEs for £279?
The most common reason why notices go AWOL is because people forget or otherwise fail to update the Registered Keeper details with the DVLA, so all the notices go to an out of date address. Or people fail to update the lease or hire company with a change of address.
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Your summary is about right.
After I received the Charge Certificates, I was waiting for the Order for Recovery so I could submit the statutory declarations. No idea why this has gone straight to enforcement, that's just not right, now I have only one week to pay up.
I have been on hold with the TEC for the last hour, not answering my call.
Even if I submit the late statutory declaration, will that get processed in time to stop the bailiffs?
I have submitted a query to Bayliff Advice Online, awaiting their response.
This is getting very frustrating and stressful. I would have been happy to pay the original PCNs, as I did with the ones I received.
Is this all out of the hands of the council now, is there any point at this stage of talking to them?
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The Council can't jump straight to bailiff enforcement. First they have to register the charge with the traffic Enforcement Centre of Northampton County Court. Doing so adds a further £9 to the charge. Then they send you by post an Order for Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge). This gives you 21 days to pay or you can submit a Statutory Declaration.
Fail to pay, as is the case here, and the Council will apply for a warrant to enforce the charge and then instructs a bailiff. The bailiff has to send you a Notice of enforcement and they add a charge of £75. The notice should give you 7 clear days to pay up and that's where your at.
The bill is now £1116 and will rise a further £235 if the bailiff visits on or after the 9th.
Or is there something you're not telling us?
The only way to attempt to stop the bailiff is to submit a Statutory Declaration form PE3 and an application to submit an SD out of time (ie late). One for each PCN. And the forms need to be witnessed, FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone and check hours first. However you need to have a good reason as to why you are late.
I strongly advise you to contact Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) PDQ and get professional advice as to how best to complete the OOT applications.
Get the forms submitted and bailiff enforcement will be frozen until the TEC makes a decision. That buys you several weeks.
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I really don't understand, yes the references on the Charge Certificates match the ones on the enforcement notices.
When I log onto they website as if to pay, I can see the evidence, so they are legitimate, but just didn't receive those PCNs.
There is nothing unusual about the address, and I haven't had any other post go missing.
Not sure if they sent the Order of Recovery at all or just went straight to enforcement?
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Well, this one has been really strange.
First of all we received two PCN for the same contravention in May, which we immediately paid.
The after several weeks we received these 4 Charge Certificates, relating to PCNs that we never received dating back to March / April
Our argument is that we would have paid the PCN if we received them, as we had paid the ones that we did receive. My wife only became aware that there was this LTN once we did receive the PCN.
Now I only have until 09 Feb to pay before they start sending round bailiffs.
That's £1116 they want by the 9th Feb.
Is the name & address on all four of the Notices of enforcement correct? Or anything odd or unusual?
What are the reference numbers from the three notices of enforcement that you haven't posted up yet?
Do the reference numbers on all four of the notices agree with the four Charge Certificates?
Is there any reason why your post might go missing? You are missing 4 x PCNs and 4 x Orders for Recovery. That's eight items of post and not really credible.
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Well, this one has been really strange.
First of all we received two PCN for the same contravention in May, which we immediately paid.
The after several weeks we received these 4 Charge Certificates, relating to PCNs that we never received dating back to March / April
Our argument is that we would have paid the PCN if we received them, as we had paid the ones that we did receive. My wife only became aware that there was this LTN once we did receive the PCN.
Now I only have until 09 Feb to pay before they start sending round bailiffs.
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You'll have to submit an out of time request to submit your SDs late. One for each each PCN that's reached the bailiff stage.
However you'll have to have a good explanation as to where the notices have got to. And Enfield are bound to object. I suggest you seek help from Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) who come highly recommended on this forum and others.
The PCN can't be found on the Enfield site using the details on the posted notice above. What are the PCN numbers (reference numbers) for the other three notices you received?
Have you changed address since the March/April 2023?
Is the vehicle leased?
Is the V5c reg doc in the correct name and address?
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It does indeed mention a £75 charge. Looks like this has gone to the next step without me receiving the OfR and they have made an enforcement order for bayliff.
See attached.
Now what can I do?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please post up one of the "Notice of Enforcement". Just redact your name & address and leave everything else visible. Does it mention a fee of £75 because it sounds like a Bailiff notice?
You can't submit the SD until the charge has been registered at Northampton County Court.
You should have received Orders for Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge). These would have had the required SD forms attached. Please confirm if these have been received or not?
No it won't affect your credit rating. But you need to get on top of this or your bank balance is going to be hammered.
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Also, what I have received is as Notice of Enforcement, rather than an Order of Recovery, are these not the same thing? The PE3 form for the statuary declaration mentions OfR.
Looking at the PE3 form, I cannot see why it was necessary to wait for the enforcement notice before submitting a statuary declaration, could I have not done this when I first received the Charge Certificate?
As this is now an enforcement order, presumably made by a court, would that have an impact on my credit rating i.r. CCJ?
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Hi, I know this is an old thread, but I have only just received the enforcement notices for the four alleged PCNs. I have been given until 09/02/2024 to pay, so not much time.
I can now submit a statuary declaration stating that I never received the original PCNs, but what do I do with the enforcement notice, there doesn't seem to be any option other than just pay by the date specified?
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This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates when these go to enforcement and I need to so a Statuary Decleration.
Call the council and get a list of all the outstanding PCNs listed against your car. Then set up a spreadsheet to keep track of everything.
I guess I can't do just one to cover them all? The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.
Free at any magistrates' court or county court (note: the magistrates' court won't know anything about this and you'll have to show them the bit of the form where it says it can be witnessed by a justice of the peace).
What's the timescale from when the two week period for the Charge Certificate expires to when I get an enforcement order and how long do I get to submit Statuary Declarations? I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks from end of next week, so won't be able to deal with it while abroad.
You can check the outstanding penalty amount from anywhere in the world. Once it goes up to £204 you know a Order for Recovery has been issued. At that point you have 21 days to email the statutory declaration to the traffic enforcement centre, so one or two weeks abroad are not an issue as long as you deal with it promptly when you get back.
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Even better phone and write.
Something is fundamentally wrong and you need to get on the front foot. So far you've received several CCs for PCNs which you've not received. What next, not receiving CCs for PCNs you haven't received or OfRs and then having bailiffs at your door?
This is serious so get to work and close the loop with the council.
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The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.
Free at mags or county court - see CP's post at reply#1
This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates
You should be able to phone Council and ask for details of outstanding PCNs against your reg.mark. and the stage they've reached.
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An update on this one.
Since receiving the two Charge Certificates relating to contraventions of the LTN in both directions on the 23rd March, for which we did not receive PCNs for, we then received two more Charge Certificates for the same contravention a week later on the 30th March, again, no PCNs were recieved.As previously stated, my wife used this route once a week, thankfully, the following two weeks were Easter holidays, no she did not use the route for two weeks.
The PCNs we did receive were for contraventions on the 20th and 27th April, but worryingly, only for one direction, when she says she used the route in both directions, so potentially another two Charge Certificates coming my way.
This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates when these go to enforcement and I need to so a Statuary Decleration. I guess I can't do just one to cover them all? The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.
What's the timescale from when the two week period for the Charge Certificate expires to when I get an enforcement order and how long do I get to submit Statuary Declarations? I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks from end of next week, so won't be able to deal with it while abroad.
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When the Traffic Enforcement Centre issues a revoking order, the council will issue a new PCN by post, and you'll be able to then either challenge it or pay it at the discount.
However at that stage you should post the PCN on here and we can look at whether it can be challenged on its merits.
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Thanks for the information, I will follow the described process.
Once the Charge Certificate issue is removed, will I then be presented with the option to pay or to challenge the original PCN?
Obviously, challenge the actual "offence" but would I have grounds on the basis that I did not receive the PCN tithing the specified time period, or at all even?
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Firstly forget about paying the PCN at the £65 rate, we want to explore all possible avenues for getting it cancelled first.
However before we get to that, you need to deal with the Charge Certificate. A Charge Certificate cannot be challenged, but the next document in the process (the Order for Recovery) can be, under the statutory ground that you never received the Penalty Charge Notice.
Have a read of the process on this page https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process from the "Charge Certificate" paragraph down to the end of the page.
Obviously the PCN didn't turn up so it's possible this might happen to the Order for Recovery, so you don't want to rely on the post. Instead, keep an eye on the amount due on the council website, once the debt has been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre, the amount owed will go up by a further £9. At that point you are able to make a statutory declaration, even if you haven't received any further paperwork.
You just need to print off form PE3 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice and note that, counterintuitively, the box under "My reasons are (give full reasons)" should be left blank.
You will need to make an appointment at your local county court to get it sworn, or most high street solicitors will do it for £5 - £10. Note that you must not sign the form until the person witnessing it tells you to.
Once that's done, you can scan or photograph the form and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.
If anything isn't clear, please ask.
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My wife had inadvertently been driving down a road with an LTN once a week since end of March.
At the end of April, we received two PCNs which we immediately paid and she subsequently found an alternative route thus avoiding any further PCNs. We though that was the end of the matter.
Now we have just received TWO Change Certificates dating back to end of March, but we had not received any PCNs for these. If we had back then, we would have paid them and stopped using this route. Looking online at the PCN numbers I can see they were on the same day, one going and one returning. There sees to still be an option to pay or appeal, not sure what happens if I try to pay the original PCN at the original rat of £65, doubt I would be able to now a Charge Certificate has been issued?
I am now concerned that more CC are going to appear, as she has used this route each week since the 23rd March, although there was a two week break for Ester holidays (my wife is a teacher).
What can I do nor, how to I go about contesting the CC and just pay the original PCN?