Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Lee74 on May 28, 2024, 01:40:38 pm
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Incandescent it's been with them since the beginning ? do I need to call them or speak to Birmingham council?
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yes traffic enforcement centre, although the address is hm courts and tribunals.
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So this is currently with tribunals service.
Don't you mean the Traffic Enforcement Centre ? You have to get the process reverted before you can even think about an appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
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So this is currently with tribunals service. they've rejected the form as it wasn't signed then rejected it agin as a box wasn't ticked..
Ive now received this.. should I respond?
(https://i.imgur.com/HfS0hP2.jpeg)
Many thanks for the help
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Hi
Thnaks for your reply. The company own the vehicle they don't lease.
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We didn't hear anything after our letter
OP, firstly please confirm that the Notice to Owner in your post #20 and this OfR are addressed to your company, not the hire company.
If so, then the procedure is that if reps were submitted in accordance with the instructions on the NTO then you were entitled to receive a response.
So, if the above applies then tick the box 'Made representations but did not....'. Complete the rest of the form as instructed and return to the Traffic Enforcement Centre as directed.
TEC will notify you that this Order for Recovery and the preceding(which you didn't get) Charge Certificate have been cancelled. The matter would then have to be referred to the adjudicator by the council, not you.
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OP, a key issue with your case is that the car is leased, and you have not told us anything so far on what the lease company do with any PCNs or Notices to Owner they receive. They hold the V5C Registration Certificate for the car, not you and are therefore responsible for payment or appealing the PCN, but can submit representations giving your name and address as the lessee on the contravention date.
You posted a Notice to Owner. Was the address on it yours or the lease company ? If yours, did you submit representations ?
The next document you've posted is the Order for Recovery, (OfR) but there should have been a Charge Certificate issued before this. Was a CC received ? What address is on the OfR ?
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Hi
We didn't hear anything after our letter and now the following has arrived... Can you advise how we should proceed? Many thanks in advance
(https://i.imgur.com/vYEZtNL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/1LSLM5X.png)
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Thanks. Your link takes me to Clement Street j/w B4135 and my GSV has views from May 2024.
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Incandescent, my GSV shows May this year, am I looking at the correct one?
OP says he turned into Clements Street, an entrance to the zone, and where the entry signs are located, then parked on a single-yellow line in Louisa Street: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/M3qFpmyuK9N3rBFB6
GSV dated March 2021
Here is 66, Louisa St where the alleged contravention occurred
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dmwbYwiJBE4hj4m88
GSV dated June 2023
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As said by others, it's not 'your' reply.
The NTO is addressed to your employer, yes? In which case the penalty charge is being demanded from them, not you.
The regs provide:
Representations against the enforcement notice[AKA Notice to Owner]
5.—(1) The recipient may make representations against the enforcement notice to the enforcement authority which served it on the recipient.
- my emphasis.
So, we need to know your intra-company protocols pl. You cannot make reps without the authority of the company.
As regards the structure of any reps, I would go with...
PCN ********
We are making formal representations against the Notice to Owner issued by you in respect of the above PCN. We consider that each of the following grounds applies:
Procedural Impropriety;
Alleged Contravention did not occur;
Penalty charge exceeded the anount applocable in the circumstances of the case.
There is no issue that our car was parked on a single yellow line in *** at *** on ****. Our driver advises us that they were unaware that the waiting restriction conveyed by the SYL was in effect because they parked on a Sunday. We have read your reply to their informal representations, seen the signs which they would have passed when entering the zone and considered the PCN grounds of contravention which are repeated in the NTO. The following errors on the council's and the authority's part are immediately apparent.
The signs in question are situated in Clement Street and Google Street View gives us their precise wording and location as at May 2024.
The signs at issue are of the form given in the diagram in Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations 2016. including the optional lower panel.
The signs state:
Controlled ZONE
(no waiting symbol)
No loading
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Everyday
8am-7.30pm
We now refer to your letter dated *** rejecting *****'s representations in which you have stressed the importance and effect of these signs e.g. they are given in the Highway Code, that further information is available on the DfT website etc. You further state that these signs are in common use throughout the country, thereby implying that there is no excuse for a driver not observing their restrictions. On which point, we would refer you to the Local Authorities' Traffic Order(Procedures)(England and Wales) Regulations 1996, regulation 18 of which states:
Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force
I am certain that the council's and the enforcement authority's dilemma must now be clear.
The sign imposes a loading restriction concurrent with that for waiting;
But there are no mandatory loading markings in Louisa Street(the location of the alleged contravention);
If the waiting and loading restrictions apply concurrently then there is no legal basis upon which it can be the case that only one of these may be breached at any one time and, even if there were, who would choose.
It therefore follows that Louisa Street is improperly marked and the council has failed to meet its mandatory obligation in this respect and consequently the grounds alleged in the PCN are improper or,
That the council have marked the CPZ entrance signs improperly, despite, as you say, there being extensive advice available from government on this and them being in common use throughout the country.
We look forward to receiving your considered response to the above.
Probably a tad OTT, but hey-ho.
Incandescent, my GSV shows May this year, am I looking at the correct one?
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Ok they have sent the NIP what is my reply to this please?
(https://i.imgur.com/Q8bIQKK.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FEcd4UE.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1jVKHfz.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/O0yuEok.jpeg)
Thanks for any help
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So I have received a reply. Doesn't bare any resemblance to what my appeal was.. Do I reply or now wait?
@Lee74 neither, as I said earlier you need to secure agreement from your employer that you will be allowed to challenge the penalty on behalf of the company.
There is no point in replying as the council won't consider anything you send before a notice to owner is served. If you wait and your employer pays the PCN upon receipt, you lose the right to appeal and they'll likely demand that you reimburse them. Hence you need to secure agreement from the company that they will allow you to challenge the penalty and you need to do this now, before the notice to owner is issued.
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HCA has suggested grounds for cancellation on the grounds of procedural impropriety in that the PCN fails to describe the contravention that occurred. As far as I can see there is nothing else you could rely on, the signage is clear enough.
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So I have received a reply. Doesn't bare any resemblance to what my appeal was.. Do I reply or now wait?
(https://i.imgur.com/IQYCBUV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QwV5u4H.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g8dmmS7.jpeg)
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@Lee74 the main point really is whether your employer will allow you to challenge the penalty on their behalf. I suggest that is the next thing you need to find out because without the registered keeper's cooperation, you're not going to be pursuing any appeal.
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The PCN is now at £70 so no point in submitting a challenge now, if not already done and provided this isn't a leased car.
Might as well wait for the Notice to owner which will be sent to the address registered at DVKLA (best go and look at the registration document itself to check it is up to date).
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ok so todays is my last day to submit. Anyone know what basis I should appeal on? Thanks in advance
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No. Different legislation with different provisions.
So, what does your employer being the registered keeper mean in practice?
That if the authority reject your challenge they would be issued with a Notice to Owner demanding the full penalty with no discount offered. They cannot transfer liability to you, it's their head on the block.
So, what's their normal practice for dealing with NTOs?
As I posted, the contravention is incorrect. If the authority wish to rely upon the contravention having occurred in a CPZ then the validity of their gateway signs comes into play. The sign we've seen creates 24/7 No Waiting and No Loading restrictions. It therefore follows that the contravention grounds cannot be 'parked in a restricted street etc.' it can only be:
'Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street etc..'
Why does this matter?
Because the PCN is required by law to state the contravention grounds and this one doesn't.
Wait for others to comment.
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I have just found this on Mr Mustards posts
The Appellant is represented by Mr D Dishman.
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle made a prohibited turn (no right turn) when in Reede Road on 22 January 2023 at 16.38.
I have allowed this appeal because I find the PCN has incorrectly stated the period for payment of the reduced penalty amount as being '...14 days beginning with the date of service of this notice...'. The correct time period is '14 days from the date of the Notice'.
Accordingly, I find the PCN is not compliant with the regulations and not enforceable.
The appeal is allowed.
Mine says the same mistake ? Would this be my defence?
Thanks
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Hi
Thanks for your reply registered keeper is my employer. DVLA details are current. I looked to see the times of operation i presumed this would be inline with the single yellow as i wasnt aware of the CPZ.
Yes the sign is till there.
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OP, at this stage I suggest you just stick to the basics of why and for how long you were there, who is the registered keeper and are their DVLA details current.
By the way, it's very sensible of the council to switch off the meters on days when parking is free, which begs the question: why did you even look?
Is this simply a case of you parking on a SYL and being unsure of the restricted hours consulted a P&D machine and on finding that parking in a parking place was free assumed the same applied to the SYL? Quite common I would think.
On another point, if the CPZ sign posted by Incandescent is still there then the contravention grounds are incorrect because loading is also prohibited.
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The meters have nothing at all to do with the SYL you were parked on. That is governed by the restriction plate (if any) or the controlled parking zone signage you passed (if any) on your route into the zone.
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Hi Thanks for the reply. Im not from the area so unable to get an up to date picture. Regarding my initial thought on Sundays and bank holidays this is what the meter said. BTW none of the meters were working.
(https://i.imgur.com/GTUOdOf.jpeg)
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@Lee74 why were you parked there, and for how long?
Also are you able to check the signs on Clement Street? The latest pictures we have from Google are two years old, and things may well have changed since then.
The traffic order is the Birmingham City Council (Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone) (Birmingham) (Consolidation) Order 1995 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EaKWf6NgvWtmBt2sSoE87oWOnQFNrZu8/view) as amended by the Birmingham City Council (Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone) (Birmingham) (Consolidation) Order 1995) (Variation) (No. 93) Order 2016 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yKxp6r7oSWAiLcp64Q16yGAlYnqfokFJ/view)
@mrmustard maybe the CPZ argument could be tested?
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Ok thanks for the reply, hopefully something else might be relevant.
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Hi
Thanks that road is blocked off permanently with metal posts(so no left turn ). Also the road closest to that is now a bus lane. I took the next left then first left then first right.
OK, so you'd have turned into Clement Street, the next left turn.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uFYwfquAadcyvAyu5
The same signs are there too.
TBH, unless somebody comes up with a robust "technical" appeal argument, you'll struggle to overturn this PCN.
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Hi
Thanks that road is blocked off permanently with metal posts(so no left turn ). Also the road closest to that is now a bus lane. I took the next left then first left then first right.
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You were parked in the Outer Zone CPZ
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1hVdNgjSu87riqLZGC8XQ6jMTrIQ&femb=1&ll=52.4771600778478%2C-1.9102367991832647&z=15
This means there are no signs by the yellow lines within the zone.
So depending on your route into Louisa Street, you should have passed one of these signs:-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GPwJ81HwVQXKiZEy9
As you can see the restricted times apply "Everyday", i.e Monday to Sunday, and there is nothing about Bank Holidays, so they are included.
Of course if you can show you never passed such a sign, then you have a good appeal argument.
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Hopefully I've put all the missing details required.
Thanks
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Please read this and update your post accordingly
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
The full PCN, all sides. Also post a GSV view telling us exactly where you parked
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Not from the area so after a search on the web i wasn't able to find clear details of parking on a single yellow on a sunday/bank holiday. Just says except Christmas Day and bank holidays.
I couldn't see any signs and the one they have taken mentions report a fault? so no idea what that refers to?
(https://i.imgur.com/jL10kKJ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VaaEmkV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WIgDLn6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/m2rCHgC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0JhJaQC.jpeg)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/MmS4K3SnTLJSroto7
Any help appreciated.
Thanks