Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: nonPCNenjoyer on May 24, 2024, 11:15:14 pm
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I'm kind of sus that you guys basically encouraged me to take this to court so you can take £30 from me to appeal :( Desperate people, seems predatory to me man idk
@nonPCNenjoyer firstly, I don't appreciate being told I'm predatory when I'm up till 1 am most nights helping strangers with their appeals.
Secondly, if I represent you and I don't win I get £0, so I don't see how that can be predatory. On the contrary I have every incentive to win and what I offer is cheaper than paying the penalty at the 50% discounted rate (and you'd already lost the 50% discount before you even came here).
Thirdly, you don't have to be represented, you can represent yourself though of course you'd have to do all the work yourself.
Lastly, running an appeal properly takes me hours and I don't think you can reasonably demand that I do the work for free (unless I lose of course but that's a risk I'm willing to take).
You can appeal yourself for free at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ or you can just give up and pay £130 to the council. You came here for advice and you have been given free legal advice, what you want to do now is entirely up to you. Nobody here is forcing you to do anything.
What I will say is you want to keep an eye on the 28 day deadline, if you miss it you will lose the right to appeal and the council will put the charge up to £195. So whatever you do, make sure to do it before midnight on 19 June 2024, which is the 28 day deadline.
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"The only arguable point would seem to be an unlawful fettering of discretion"
What's this mean?
@nonPCNenjoyer the notice of rejection says they're unable to cancel, but that's not ture: they are able to cancel and they're require to decide whether to do so or not. A detailed explanation is given in Susan Cook v Trafford Borough Council (TR 05993K, 25 January 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GBMDfWL6w4j5fV1mSz-bY6rZT9jmbU54/view) but at London Tribunals it's a bit of a mixed bag:
Nirakar Vaidya v London Borough of Newham (2130316200, 1 August 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NAedEYZWUn5IXu5n_GFOYvrwqHYUeaWM/view), won
Madeline Grace Dyett v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2130497615, 5 December 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OeO8Siu7y0AfGp8bAA1ITtLoBdx98Ns8/view), won
Krzysztof Burger v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2190467973, 5 September 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iarj9u0rW4mxIqpbeg5beRI7xMYq98i8/view), lost
Simone Strauss v London Borough of Barnet (2130521902, 4 July 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SKtivUGzzk4rupEH9WCzJkJpsLxJKAjJ/view), won
Shaun Elliott v Royal Borough of Richmond upon Thames (2200264240, 24 August 2020) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SBl4l6nLbSbbdDJjZ1NJ60GvsXHatn3y/view), lost
Kuldip Gahir v London Borough of Redbridge (2230274618, 3 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/u/2/uc?id=12noumPfeG6zGyH-ox9hqLRxEtK5atKr4/view), lost
As you now have nothing to lose the argument should be made, you just need to decide whether you want to argue the appeal yourself or whether you'd like me to do this for you (in which case you need to act on the PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm) I sent you).
I'm kind of sus that you guys basically encouraged me to take this to court so you can take £30 from me to appeal :( Desperate people, seems predatory to me man idk
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"The only arguable point would seem to be an unlawful fettering of discretion"
What's this mean?
@nonPCNenjoyer the notice of rejection says they're unable to cancel, but that's not ture: they are able to cancel and they're require to decide whether to do so or not. A detailed explanation is given in Susan Cook v Trafford Borough Council (TR 05993K, 25 January 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GBMDfWL6w4j5fV1mSz-bY6rZT9jmbU54/view) but at London Tribunals it's a bit of a mixed bag:
Nirakar Vaidya v London Borough of Newham (2130316200, 1 August 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NAedEYZWUn5IXu5n_GFOYvrwqHYUeaWM/view), won
Madeline Grace Dyett v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2130497615, 5 December 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OeO8Siu7y0AfGp8bAA1ITtLoBdx98Ns8/view), won
Krzysztof Burger v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2190467973, 5 September 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iarj9u0rW4mxIqpbeg5beRI7xMYq98i8/view), lost
Simone Strauss v London Borough of Barnet (2130521902, 4 July 2013) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SKtivUGzzk4rupEH9WCzJkJpsLxJKAjJ/view), won
Shaun Elliott v Royal Borough of Richmond upon Thames (2200264240, 24 August 2020) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SBl4l6nLbSbbdDJjZ1NJ60GvsXHatn3y/view), lost
Kuldip Gahir v London Borough of Redbridge (2230274618, 3 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/u/2/uc?id=12noumPfeG6zGyH-ox9hqLRxEtK5atKr4/view), lost
As you now have nothing to lose the argument should be made, you just need to decide whether you want to argue the appeal yourself or whether you'd like me to do this for you (in which case you need to act on the PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm) I sent you).
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@nonPCNenjoyer well the penalty has now gone up to £130 so you should obviously appeal, as the penalty won't go up if you lose. I will drop you a PM if you would like to be represented. The only arguable point would seem to be an unlawful fettering of discretion, it's not much to go on but as you have nothing to lose it wouldn't make sense to give up and pay now.
"The only arguable point would seem to be an unlawful fettering of discretion"
What's this mean?
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@nonPCNenjoyer well the penalty has now gone up to £130 so you should obviously appeal, as the penalty won't go up if you lose. I will drop you a PM if you would like to be represented. The only arguable point would seem to be an unlawful fettering of discretion, it's not much to go on but as you have nothing to lose it wouldn't make sense to give up and pay now.
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So this is the only letter I found that isn't the same as the others. I cannot find anymore at all.
Is not page 4 of 8 on the back of this (page 3 of 8)?
Page 4 of that pic just has their signature
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For what you have uploaded so far, it says page 1 of 8 and page 2 of 8. So there are 6 more pages. cp8759 has said not to include the tribunal pages which I think will probably be the last 4 pages. So what's inbetween? It may look like just standard wording to you, but the devil is in the detail and the guys on this website win so many cases on behalf of people based upon what is or is not included on those pages. The more you share, the better.
Hi,
Is my most recent picture uploaded yesterday good enough?
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So this is the only letter I found that isn't the same as the others. I cannot find anymore at all.
Is not page 4 of 8 on the back of this (page 3 of 8)?
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I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
@nonPCNenjoyer well the wording of the notice of rejection might open avenues of appeal, for instance this occurred in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view).
The problem is these issues are always case-specific, without seeing the actual notice of rejection that you received we have no way of knowing whether the council messed things up in your particular case. We therefore need all sides of all pages of your notice of rejection.
It is very important with these things to keep all the paperwork for exactly this sort of reason. I suggest you try and find the missing paperwork.
(https://i.imgur.com/i6HzbaP.jpeg)
Hi,
So this is the only letter I found that isn't the same as the others. I cannot find anymore at all.
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For what you have uploaded so far, it says page 1 of 8 and page 2 of 8. So there are 6 more pages. cp8759 has said not to include the tribunal pages which I think will probably be the last 4 pages. So what's inbetween? It may look like just standard wording to you, but the devil is in the detail and the guys on this website win so many cases on behalf of people based upon what is or is not included on those pages. The more you share, the better.
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I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
@nonPCNenjoyer well the wording of the notice of rejection might open avenues of appeal, for instance this occurred in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view).
The problem is these issues are always case-specific, without seeing the actual notice of rejection that you received we have no way of knowing whether the council messed things up in your particular case. We therefore need all sides of all pages of your notice of rejection.
It is very important with these things to keep all the paperwork for exactly this sort of reason. I suggest you try and find the missing paperwork.
Hi,
Do you have any examples of what you mean by this second page? I cannot find it. Be easier to find it if I knew what it looked like.
Thanks
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I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
@nonPCNenjoyer well the wording of the notice of rejection might open avenues of appeal, for instance this occurred in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view).
The problem is these issues are always case-specific, without seeing the actual notice of rejection that you received we have no way of knowing whether the council messed things up in your particular case. We therefore need all sides of all pages of your notice of rejection.
It is very important with these things to keep all the paperwork for exactly this sort of reason. I suggest you try and find the missing paperwork.
Hi,
Do you have any examples of what you mean by this second page? I cannot find it. Be easier to find it if I knew what it looked like.
Thanks
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Page 2, please.
It seems they have not re-offered the discount, so it is now a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, because the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs to pay.
Hi,
The fine is still £65. It's not increased at all yet.
I don't get how they cancelled one PCN on a goodwill gesture, but not both.. :( But in the goodwill gesture letter they did say if they happened again they wouldn't cancel it, which it clearly has...
What should I do here? Clearly, I'm in the wrong. Is there anything else?
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Page 2, please.
It seems they have not re-offered the discount, so it is now a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, because the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs to pay.
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I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
@nonPCNenjoyer well the wording of the notice of rejection might open avenues of appeal, for instance this occurred in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view).
The problem is these issues are always case-specific, without seeing the actual notice of rejection that you received we have no way of knowing whether the council messed things up in your particular case. We therefore need all sides of all pages of your notice of rejection.
It is very important with these things to keep all the paperwork for exactly this sort of reason. I suggest you try and find the missing paperwork.
Hi,
Is this what you need, is there anything else? I have until the 5th to decide what to do or just pay it...
(https://i.imgur.com/kNJLBNV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IC7C1QW.jpeg)
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I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
@nonPCNenjoyer well the wording of the notice of rejection might open avenues of appeal, for instance this occurred in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view).
The problem is these issues are always case-specific, without seeing the actual notice of rejection that you received we have no way of knowing whether the council messed things up in your particular case. We therefore need all sides of all pages of your notice of rejection.
It is very important with these things to keep all the paperwork for exactly this sort of reason. I suggest you try and find the missing paperwork.
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@nonPCNenjoyer please post the remaining pages of the rejection letter (but not the tribunal appeal form).
I don't understand what more you want can you give an example? the letters are all lost so I'd have to find them now.
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@nonPCNenjoyer please post the remaining pages of the rejection letter (but not the tribunal appeal form).
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Post a copy of the PCN for us to look at if you want advice. Only redact your name and address. Depending on circumstances, you may be able to time your representations so that the discount is preserved and you can buy time until later June if the council don't reject immediately.
This is everything so far.
(https://i.imgur.com/UO4zPoU.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kc1z9Bq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qXuqiG3.png)
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@nonPCNenjoyer as above, please read this guide https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ and update your post accordingly.
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Please read this and update your post accordingly. At the moment we are completely in the dark so no meaningful advice can be given.
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Post a copy of the PCN for us to look at if you want advice. Only redact your name and address. Depending on circumstances, you may be able to time your representations so that the discount is preserved and you can buy time until later June if the council don't reject immediately.
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Hi,
Literally exact same location, but like ~10 minutes apart. I sent in an appeal and they cancelled one of them on a goodwill gesture, but didn't cancel my other one, does this make sense? why cancel one but not both? unless they combined the 2 since they're so close together in time? what should i do? they've rejected the appeal on one but accepted the other. do i just pay the £65? i got the PCN for driving through a no motor vehicles sign twice i clearly aint see it lol.
the pcn is with barking & dagenham council, i cannot affort this pcn at all, is there a way i can contact someone to ask to pay the £65 by 28th June when I get a full months pay?
Thanks