Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:41:03 pm


Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 24, 2024, 08:27:15 pm
You might not have much luck with your MP at the moment given the pending election!

If you want to make a fuss, local news can often be a good place to start, they're sometimes fairly desperate for local stories. St Helens Star would be the first that comes to my mind, as they also have a free print edition delivered locally.

Either way, a good result, well done for your determination.

Thank you! Feel quite chuffed but definitely want to get.the sign changed. Alternatively I could keep parking there and keep appealing  ;D
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 24, 2024, 07:59:47 pm
You might not have much luck with your MP at the moment given the pending election!

If you want to make a fuss, local news can often be a good place to start, they're sometimes fairly desperate for local stories. St Helens Star would be the first that comes to my mind, as they also have a free print edition delivered locally.

Either way, a good result, well done for your determination.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: slapdash on June 24, 2024, 06:25:04 pm
It's such a poorly regulated industry.

Local news, facebook groups, local WhatsApp groups and so on.

They have no incentive to change until people start challenging all the erroneous tickets and it costs them in time and popla fees.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 24, 2024, 05:56:08 pm
Thank you everyone. Notice number 3 has been cancelled and the notice number which I had submitted a popla appeal for been withdrawn so I didn't even have to wait for a popla decision.

Whilst I'm really happy, the sign hasn't changed and so I can see others making the same mistake and ending up paying. Who can I write to for them to change the sign? My MP?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 21, 2024, 11:43:53 pm
Some suggestions. First, instead of 'Dear sirs', start with the POPLA verification code and vehicle registration mark, like in the example I shared.

Also, as I noted in an early reply, I'm on the fence about whether to include point #3 (about the ambiguous signage) at this stage. Part of me thinks it would be better to leave this out - once you've submitted your appeal, ParkingEye have an opportunity to respond with an 'evidence pack', and you in turn have an opportunity to respond to their evidence pack. you could see if they try to argue that parking is not permitted outside the tariff times, then, if they do, you respond with point #3. The other part of me thinks get it on the table now, and head them off before they even try it. See if others take a view, although the more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards including it.

When submitting, as in the example I shared, don't write your appeal in the online POPLA form, attach it as a PDF document so you can keep the formatting and the image of the sign.

I've tried to make it flow slightly better, but this might just be a personal style thing so it's up to you:

POPLA Verification Code: ________
VRM: ________

I am appealing this parking charge notice in my capacity as the registered keeper. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

The signage at the site (a copy of which is included below) states that tariffs apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday.

[INCLUDE PHOTO OF SIGNAGE HERE INLINE]

ParkingEye issued a parking charge for "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage".

I contend that the driver did not do either of these things, and that as such, the terms and conditions were not breached, meaning this appeal should be upheld. My appeal is based on the following 3 grounds

1. The driver did not park during the times when tariffs apply, thus no payment was required - The signage at the site states that tariffs apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday. If parking is offered to the general public at all hours and on all days, then there is no ambiguity about these terms which can only be interpreted as meaning that, as regards whether parking is subject to payment of a tariff, parking is chargeable between 5pm and 8am Monday to Friday; from 5pm to midnight on Fridays; and all hours Saturday and Sunday. It therefore follows that parking is not subject to the payment of a tariff outside of these times. As the vehicle was  parked on a Friday at 9.05am and left at 1.27pm the same day, no tariff was due, so the first limb of ParkingEye's allegation, that the driver did not purchase the appropriate parking time, is without merit.

2.The car park is not subject to a maximum stay period, thus the driver did not remain for longer than permitted - The second limb of the creditor's allegation is that the vehicle 'remained at the car park for longer than permitted'. However, the full terms have been reproduced above (and can be seen in the attached photo) and the assessor will notice that the landowner has not applied any maximum parking period on motorists. It therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation, that the vehicle remained at the car park for longer than permitted, is also without merit.

3. If ParkingEye contend that parking is not permitted outside of the times when tariffs apply, this term is not adequately communicated - It is not implied by the signage that parking outside the hours of 5pm-8am for the general public is not permitted. If ParkingEye had meant for this, then it should be clearly stated. If ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) should apply:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

In this case, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

In addition, if the intended meaning is that parking is not permitted outside of the times when tariffs apply, the signage is not compliant with section 19.3 of the BPA's Code of Practice, which states that "Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand". A sign containing such ambiguous terms would clearly fail to meet this requirement.

As the driver did not fail to purchase the appropriate parking time (as no tariff was due), nor did they remain at the car park for longer than permitted, I contend that the charge is not owed and the appeal should be upheld.
[/i]

Thank you. I have submitted this as the appeal.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 20, 2024, 01:01:17 am
Some suggestions. First, instead of 'Dear sirs', start with the POPLA verification code and vehicle registration mark, like in the example I shared.

Also, as I noted in an early reply, I'm on the fence about whether to include point #3 (about the ambiguous signage) at this stage. Part of me thinks it would be better to leave this out - once you've submitted your appeal, ParkingEye have an opportunity to respond with an 'evidence pack', and you in turn have an opportunity to respond to their evidence pack. you could see if they try to argue that parking is not permitted outside the tariff times, then, if they do, you respond with point #3. The other part of me thinks get it on the table now, and head them off before they even try it. See if others take a view, although the more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards including it.

When submitting, as in the example I shared, don't write your appeal in the online POPLA form, attach it as a PDF document so you can keep the formatting and the image of the sign.

I've tried to make it flow slightly better, but this might just be a personal style thing so it's up to you:

POPLA Verification Code: ________
VRM: ________

I am appealing this parking charge notice in my capacity as the registered keeper. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

The signage at the site (a copy of which is included below) states that tariffs apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday.

[INCLUDE PHOTO OF SIGNAGE HERE INLINE]

ParkingEye issued a parking charge for "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage".

I contend that the driver did not do either of these things, and that as such, the terms and conditions were not breached, meaning this appeal should be upheld. My appeal is based on the following 3 grounds

1. The driver did not park during the times when tariffs apply, thus no payment was required - The signage at the site states that tariffs apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday. If parking is offered to the general public at all hours and on all days, then there is no ambiguity about these terms which can only be interpreted as meaning that, as regards whether parking is subject to payment of a tariff, parking is chargeable between 5pm and 8am Monday to Friday; from 5pm to midnight on Fridays; and all hours Saturday and Sunday. It therefore follows that parking is not subject to the payment of a tariff outside of these times. As the vehicle was  parked on a Friday at 9.05am and left at 1.27pm the same day, no tariff was due, so the first limb of ParkingEye's allegation, that the driver did not purchase the appropriate parking time, is without merit.

2.The car park is not subject to a maximum stay period, thus the driver did not remain for longer than permitted - The second limb of the creditor's allegation is that the vehicle 'remained at the car park for longer than permitted'. However, the full terms have been reproduced above (and can be seen in the attached photo) and the assessor will notice that the landowner has not applied any maximum parking period on motorists. It therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation, that the vehicle remained at the car park for longer than permitted, is also without merit.

3. If ParkingEye contend that parking is not permitted outside of the times when tariffs apply, this term is not adequately communicated - It is not implied by the signage that parking outside the hours of 5pm-8am for the general public is not permitted. If ParkingEye had meant for this, then it should be clearly stated. If ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) should apply:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

In this case, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

In addition, if the intended meaning is that parking is not permitted outside of the times when tariffs apply, the signage is not compliant with section 19.3 of the BPA's Code of Practice, which states that "Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand". A sign containing such ambiguous terms would clearly fail to meet this requirement.

As the driver did not fail to purchase the appropriate parking time (as no tariff was due), nor did they remain at the car park for longer than permitted, I contend that the charge is not owed and the appeal should be upheld.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 19, 2024, 11:44:28 pm
I think the content looks alright. I would however be tempted to amend the formatting slightly, just for ease of reading (even though it's a short appeal by POPLA standards). Take a look at this example: Euro Car Parks Ltd POPLA appeal (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9xdjt9a6mw7hvp0h5a3yn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?rlkey=a0y6xxd5a5z6kpbzst33tuqwi&e=1&dl=0) - ignore the actual appeal points raised, but note the format. A brief introductory paragraph and a numbered list of the grounds on which the appeal is based, followed by the details of each point. It might seem unecessary if you're only making 3 key points, but makes clear that they are separate points and must all be considered.

Agree with what you're saying

Only a small tweak but if nothing else, will be submitting this 3rd draft

Dear Sirs,

I am appealing this parking charge notice. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

ParkingEye issued a parking charge for "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage".
The driver did not do either of these things.

The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs only apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday.

If parking is offered to the general public at all hours and on all days, then there is no ambiguity about these terms which can only be interpreted as meaning that, as regards whether parking is subject to payment of a tariff, parking is chargeable between 5pm and 8am Monday to Friday; from 5pm to midnight on Fridays; and all hours Saturday and Sunday.

The driver in this case parked on a Friday at 9.05am and left at 1.27pm the same day. Therefore, for the following three reasons, the parking charge did not apply:

1. Payment for parking was not required, it therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation is without merit.

2. The second limb of the creditor's allegation is that the vehicle 'remained at the car park for longer than permitted'. However, the full terms have been reproduced above (and can be seen in the attached photo) and the assessor will notice that the landowner has not applied any maximum parking period on motorists. It therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation must also fail.

3. It is not implied by the signage that parking outside the hours of 5pm-8am for the general public is not permitted. If parkingeye had meant for this, then it should be clearly stated. If ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) should apply:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

The meaning that is most favourable to the consumer here is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

As the driver did not fail to purchase the appropriate parking time (as no tariff was due), nor did they remain at the car park for longer than permitted, the charge is not owed and the appeal should be upheld.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 19, 2024, 10:28:26 pm
I think the content looks alright. I would however be tempted to amend the formatting slightly, just for ease of reading (even though it's a short appeal by POPLA standards). Take a look at this example: Euro Car Parks Ltd POPLA appeal (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9xdjt9a6mw7hvp0h5a3yn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?rlkey=a0y6xxd5a5z6kpbzst33tuqwi&e=1&dl=0) - ignore the actual appeal points raised, but note the format. A brief introductory paragraph and a numbered list of the grounds on which the appeal is based, followed by the details of each point. It might seem unecessary if you're only making 3 key points, but makes clear that they are separate points and must all be considered.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 19, 2024, 10:00:47 pm
Opinions on my 2md draft?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 17, 2024, 12:55:11 am
2nd draft

Dear Sirs,

I am appealing this parking charge notice. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

ParkingEye issued a parking charge for "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage".
The driver did not do either of these things.

The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday.

If parking is offered to the general public at all hours and on all days, then there is no ambiguity about these terms which can only be interpreted as meaning that, as regards whether parking is subject to payment of a tariff, parking is chargeable between 5pm and 8am Monday to Friday; from 5pm to midnight on Fridays; and all hours Saturday and Sunday.

The driver in this case parked on a Friday at 9.05am and left at 1.27pm the same day.

Payment for parking was not required, it therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation is without merit.

The second limb of the creditor's allegation is that the vehicle 'remained at the car park for longer than permitted'. However, the full terms have been reproduced above (and can be seen in the attached photo) and the assessor will notice that the landowner has not applied any maximum parking period on motorists. It therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation must also fail.

It is not implied by the signage that parking outside the hours of 5pm-8am for the general public is not permitted. If parkingeye had meant for this, then it should be clearly stated. If ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) should apply:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

The meaning that is most favourable to the consumer here is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

As the driver did not fail to purchase the appropriate parking time (as no tariff was due), nor did they remain at the car park for longer than permitted, the charge is not owed and the appeal should be upheld.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: H C Andersen on June 16, 2024, 09:10:30 am
Chsnge 'free of charge' to 'chargeable'  :)
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: H C Andersen on June 15, 2024, 03:51:37 pm
I would amend, my suggestion being as follows:

The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs only* apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, & all day Saturday and Sunday.

If parking is offered to the general public at all hours and on all days, then there is no ambiguity about these terms which can only be interpreted as meaning that, as regards whether parking is subject to payment of a tariff, parking is free of charge between 5pm and 8am Monday to Friday; from 5pm to midnight on Fridays; and all hours Saturday and Sunday.

The driver in this case parked on a Friday at 9.05am and left at 1.27pm the same day.

Payment for parking was not required, it therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation is without merit.

The second limb of the creditor's allegation is that the vehicle 'remained at the car park for longer than permitted'. However, the full terms have been reproduced above (and can be seen in the attached photo) and the assessor will notice that the landowner has not applied any maximum parking period on motorists. It therefore follows that this limb of the creditor's allegation must also fail.


*- the word only doesn't appear. Just stick with the wording at this stage, interpretations can follow.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 14, 2024, 06:31:24 pm
If you present your case strongly, POPLA aren't as bad as they're sometimes made out. I think the takeaway is to not panic if they reject your appeal.

Anecdotally, POPLA are sometimes reluctant to rule on signage, as it forces the parking company to change it, but don't be discouraged.

Thanks. Thoughts on my revised appeal for popla?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 14, 2024, 06:30:37 pm
Unless others have a different point of view, I'd say that you may as well try your luck with POPLA and let's see how they make their assessment.

Don't be disheartened by the discussion about the merits or otherwise of POPLA. At least they have much higher successful appeal rate than the IAS which is around 4%-5%.

An unsuccessful appeal by POPLA has no bearing on any future claim, should it come to that. In fact, it is often preferred to have a judge decide whether you owe a debt because they are the only truly independent arbiter.

If the appeal is not successful at POPLA, it would be interesting to see how PE deal with this. If they decide to use a third party debt collector to send useless letters, it means that they have little to no faith that they would win in court. You can guarantee that if they use DCB Legal to file a claim on their behalf, you won't be paying a penny. I won't go into all the detail of why right now except to say that is a known modus operandi for any claim issued by DCB Legal that is defended using the template defence is discontinued before they have to pay the hearing fee.

Thanks. Hopefully doesn't go any further. Caused a lot of stress and hassle!
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 14, 2024, 06:29:19 pm
If you present your case strongly, POPLA aren't as bad as they're sometimes made out. I think the takeaway is to not panic if they reject your appeal.

Anecdotally, POPLA are sometimes reluctant to rule on signage, as it forces the parking company to change it, but don't be discouraged.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: b789 on June 14, 2024, 06:00:31 pm
Unless others have a different point of view, I'd say that you may as well try your luck with POPLA and let's see how they make their assessment.

Don't be disheartened by the discussion about the merits or otherwise of POPLA. At least they have much higher successful appeal rate than the IAS which is around 4%-5%.

An unsuccessful appeal by POPLA has no bearing on any future claim, should it come to that. In fact, it is often preferred to have a judge decide whether you owe a debt because they are the only truly independent arbiter.

If the appeal is not successful at POPLA, it would be interesting to see how PE deal with this. If they decide to use a third party debt collector to send useless letters, it means that they have little to no faith that they would win in court. You can guarantee that if they use DCB Legal to file a claim on their behalf, you won't be paying a penny. I won't go into all the detail of why right now except to say that is a known modus operandi for any claim issued by DCB Legal that is defended using the template defence is discontinued before they have to pay the hearing fee.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 14, 2024, 05:36:26 pm
I have drafted this:

Dear Sirs,

I am appealing this parking charge notice. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

ParkingEye issued a parking charge for "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage".
The driver did not do either of these things.

The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs only apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, and all day Saturday and Sunday. The vehicle was parked on Friday 3/5/24 between 09:05am and 13:27. As they were not parked during the times when tariffs apply, according to the signage, it cannot be the case that the driver failed to purchase the appropriate parking time. As the car was not parked during these times, no tariff was due. The signage does not stipulate a maximum permitted stay, outside of the times when tariffs apply, nor does it state that parking is prohibited outside of the times when tariffs apply. As such, it cannot be the case that the driver remained at the car park for longer than permitted.

It is not implied by the signage that parking outside the hours of 5pm-8am for the general public is not permitted. If parkingeye had meant for this, then it should be clearly stated. If ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) should apply:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

The meaning that is most favourable to the consumer here is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

As the driver did not fail to purchase the appropriate parking time (as no tariff was due), nor did they remain at the car park for longer than permitted, the charge is not owed and the appeal should be upheld.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 14, 2024, 05:35:41 pm
No one with extensive experience of POPLA "respects" their capabilities nor their competence. In fact, unless the argument is so clear cut, it is advised that it is not worth wasting time on a POPLA appeal.

POPLA are funded by the BPA members and so are not truly independent. It has been shown numerous times that when an assessor has misinterpreted the law or the CoP and complaint about it has been made, even though they agree that a decision was made in error, they will not reverse such a decision.

The derogatory inference is precisely because they have shown that they are not truly independent and are often seen to make decisions that fly in the face of common sense and then admit it but refuse to change those decisions. Hence the point being that it may as well be the janitor or the tea-boy who made the assessment.

Until such time as a truly independent ADR service is in place, I and countless others will have little to no respect for their cosy, incestuous relationship with the BPA.

Others are free to disagree.

Reading this makes me feel I should've just paid the reduced fine amount and the popla appeal is pointless... ???
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: b789 on June 14, 2024, 05:27:28 pm
No one with extensive experience of POPLA "respects" their capabilities nor their competence. In fact, unless the argument is so clear cut, it is advised that it is not worth wasting time on a POPLA appeal.

POPLA are funded by the BPA members and so are not truly independent. It has been shown numerous times that when an assessor has misinterpreted the law or the CoP and complaint about it has been made, even though they agree that a decision was made in error, they will not reverse such a decision.

The derogatory inference is precisely because they have shown that they are not truly independent and are often seen to make decisions that fly in the face of common sense and then admit it but refuse to change those decisions. Hence the point being that it may as well be the janitor or the tea-boy who made the assessment.

Until such time as a truly independent ADR service is in place, I and countless others will have little to no respect for their cosy, incestuous relationship with the BPA.

Others are free to disagree.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: H C Andersen on June 14, 2024, 05:17:48 pm
Sorry, but I don't think it's helpful to OPs to call into question the capabilities of POPLA assessors in this way. If this were correct then it would surely be a total waste of time to introduce matters regarding the interpretation of the CRA into such a mix. We can't have it both ways, we either respect their impartiality and competence and construct appeals accordingly or not and don't.

C'est la vie.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 14, 2024, 05:07:32 pm
If it were me appealing, I'd be minded to leave that point out.

If ParkingEye want to make the argument that their sign means no parking allowed outside those hours, let them, then rebut that argument at the comments stage. Don't make their own point for them.

But if you are going to include it, I'd use the Consumer Rights Act argument.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: b789 on June 14, 2024, 04:37:50 pm
There seems to be an assumption here that the POPLA assessor is going to be legally trained enough to decipher a suggestion that it was prohibited to park outside of those hours.

KISS as it may only be the janitor doing the assessment on the day.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 14, 2024, 04:26:53 pm
Should the OP consider the third option which IMO is the implied condition that outside the hours of 5pm - 8am parking for the general public is not permitted?
I'd say that isn't really implied by the signage, it's only implied insofar as that must be the condition ParkingEye were intending to take effect, otherwise they wouldn't have issued a parking charge. That said, if making this point, I'd be tempted to shift the focus to the fact that if ParkingEye wish to argue that this is the intended interpretation of the signage, then that term is at best ambiguous, and as such, Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/69/enacted) should apply:

If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.

The meaning that is most favourable to the consumer here is the one that means parking outside of the times stated is allowed without the payment of a tariff, and thus no breach has occurred.

They could, if they wanted to go full belt and braces, then follow that up with your point to say that even if it was accepted that the terms were such that parking is not allowed outside of those terms, this would be a trespass. My only apprehension about making that point is that it could add confusion into the mix, and allow the assessor to focus on that point, to the detriment of the other points.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: H C Andersen on June 14, 2024, 04:06:17 pm
Should the OP consider the third option which IMO is the implied condition that outside the hours of 5pm - 8am parking for the general public is not permitted?

..appeal should be upheld.

The appellant has even considered a third alternative - which has not been asserted let alone implied by the creditor but which is being addressed in this appeal for completeness - which is that parking by the general public outside of the charging hours is not permitted and therefore being on site at all during this period must constitute a breach. However, as the assessor will appreciate, even if such a condition applied, which it is asserted does not, this could only give rise to a trespass and therefore no contract was formed and the parking charge for breach of the same must be dismissed.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 14, 2024, 10:55:18 am
You essentially need to walk the assessor through your points, assuming they have no prior knowledge (which shouldn't be the case, but helps make your argument clear). For the signage point for example, talk them through it point by point:

Produce your appeal as a PDF, and include a photo of the signage with this point, to demonstrate your arguments. (Don't just copy those bullets verbatim, you may need to expand, that's just an example of how to walk the assessor through your points.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: The Rookie on June 14, 2024, 07:56:54 am
Look up other POPLA appeals and start again!

That's about 1/5 the size it should be.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 13, 2024, 05:09:29 pm
Use the POPLA appeal for all of them, add this to the other two as well as any POFA items.

Spend the time to spell out why your parking wasn't in breach and include the sign in the appeal.  Some POPLA assessors aren't too bright so you need to spoon feed them.

Dear Sirs,

I am appealing this parking charge notice. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

Your parking charge notice alleges that the driver incurred a charge by "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining at the car park longer than permitted". The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs only apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, and all day Saturday and Sunday. As the car was not parked during these times, no tariff was due. Additionally, the signage does not specify a maximum stay outside of the periods when parking tariffs apply.

Accordingly, the alleged breach did not occur, and the parking charge is not due. You should therefore kindly cancel this charge.

Sent this for the 2nd and 3rd notices. The 2nd notice has been cancelled. Planning in sending this to popla. Is it worth mentioning they've find me 3 times under similar circumstances?

What's a pofa item?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 13, 2024, 05:06:39 pm
Thank you everyone, the notice from 7th may has been cancelled 🥳🥳🥳
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: The Rookie on June 13, 2024, 11:58:08 am
Use the POPLA appeal for all of them, add this to the other two as well as any POFA items.

Spend the time to spell out why your parking wasn't in breach and include the sign in the appeal.  Some POPLA assessors aren't too bright so you need to spoon feed them.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 13, 2024, 12:04:28 am
Although somewhat Venal, PE are probably the most professional of the PPCs, however they do reject practically every appeal and force you to POPLA, that's a rare **** up on signage by them as the signage absolutely only requires those visiting to register and there are no restrictions on non visitors pre 5pm from it's strict wording.  A cancelation by PE is an outside chance, but at POPLA should be easier.

The first ticket where I outed myself as the driver has been rejected. Should I submit the above better written appeal which I used on my 2nd and 3rd ticket on my popla appeal? And should I just follow the process on the back of the notice for the popla appeal?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: The Rookie on June 11, 2024, 09:42:26 am
Although somewhat Venal, PE are probably the most professional of the PPCs, however they do reject practically every appeal and force you to POPLA, that's a rare **** up on signage by them as the signage absolutely only requires those visiting to register and there are no restrictions on non visitors pre 5pm from it's strict wording.  A cancelation by PE is an outside chance, but at POPLA should be easier.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 10, 2024, 09:28:56 pm
It's just their standard boilerplate to acknowledge receipt of your appeals and to make clear they'll respond.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on June 10, 2024, 08:56:14 pm
I have received these 2 now. Hoping for a third. Does this mean someone is likely looking at the sign and then actioning further?

https://imgur.com/a/qrWSfHt
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on June 02, 2024, 01:24:24 pm
I've merged this with your existing thread. Do not start multiple threads on the same topic: House Rules (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/house-rules/)
Title: Re: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: Swahmad on June 02, 2024, 11:43:54 am
What was your appeal for the charge for 3/5? And did you identify yourself as driver to who I assume would be the warden?

I hadn't come here for advice so my appeal was not the best and yes I'd identified myself as the driver. I said that as the charges are 5pm to 8am I didn't have to pay basically.
Title: Re: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: WhoLetTheScamsOut on June 01, 2024, 11:16:29 pm
What was your appeal for the charge for 3/5? And did you identify yourself as driver to who I assume would be the warden?
Title: Re: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: Swahmad on June 01, 2024, 09:17:57 pm
The sign

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Title: Re: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: Swahmad on June 01, 2024, 09:17:21 pm
Turned over

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Title: Re: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: Swahmad on June 01, 2024, 09:16:25 pm
Letter fronts

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Title: Car parking before 5pm - appeal
Post by: Swahmad on June 01, 2024, 09:15:33 pm
Following on from my first post, I have appealed the 2nd and 3rd notices and awaiting a response.

How should I go about the first notice which has had an appeal already rejected? The letters make it seem I can appeal as normal again rather than going through popla? TIA
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 25, 2024, 10:19:42 am
Yes, that's what I did. Thanks!
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: b789 on May 25, 2024, 10:18:20 am
Just tried to appeal and it asks if you're the driver or keeper/driver 🥲
I should say keeper and input wife's name?

Eh? In whose name is the NtK? Yours or your wife's? Whatever name is on the NtK is the person appealing. The NtK will have been sent to the person named on the V5C as the keeper. It is the keeper appealing. DO NOT select anything except registered "keeper" or "other".
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 10:16:39 pm
https://imgur.com/a/VHe7YhS
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: H C Andersen on May 24, 2024, 10:13:52 pm
Where's the car park sign to which you refer?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 10:08:07 pm
Just tried to appeal and it asks if you're the driver or keeper/driver 🥲
I should say keeper and input wife's name?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: slapdash on May 24, 2024, 08:31:42 pm
I think the tone of general bemusement is appropriate.

Other elements can be added later.

Hopefully they will cancel but be prepared to have to go further.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on May 24, 2024, 07:33:54 pm
Personally, yes. Although I would say that, I wrote it  ;) see if others hold contrary views.

I think getting the issue of the signage front and centre in the first appeal is sensible, attaching a photo of it when sending if possible. The appeal is done as the keeper, with no indication of who was driving (as this may be of benefit further down the line at POPLA).
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 07:31:07 pm
Do you think reply 3 is what I should send as the appeal?
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: DWMB2 on May 24, 2024, 07:28:31 pm
Quote
I think it would be a harsh judge who assumed you should have inferred that.
Indeed. As you rightly note, the rule of contra proferentem would seem to apply. As per Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail"
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:53:29 pm
I have received another letter reminding me if the 3rd fine ::)

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Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: slapdash on May 24, 2024, 05:52:26 pm
They seem to have fouled the signs up. It should probably include "at other times permit holders only".

I think it would be a harsh judge who assumed you should have inferred that.

As written it seems to allow a free permit for the various classes of users mentioned, whilst a little it's not entirely uncommon.They could be evening businesses wanting to give their customers free parking.

Contract terms should be interpreted to the favour of the consumer where unclear, as these are.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:47:50 pm
This was the latest reply I was advised to send as the appeal:

Dear Sirs,

I am appealing this parking charge notice (PCN #: _____) as the registered keeper of VRM: ____ ___. I am appealing on the grounds that the driver did not breach any of the terms of parking as advertised by the signage on the site.

Your parking charge notice alleges that the driver incurred a charge by "either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining at the car park longer than permitted". The signage at the site (a copy of which is attached) states that tariffs only apply between 5pm-8am Monday-Friday, and all day Saturday and Sunday. As the car was not parked during these times, no tariff was due. Additionally, the signage does not specify a maximum stay outside of the periods when parking tariffs apply.

Accordingly, the alleged breach did not occur, and the parking charge is not due. You should therefore cancel this charge, or issue a POPLA code.
Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:45:20 pm
Previous attachments

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Title: Re: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:43:43 pm
Previously attached.images

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Title: Carpark charge before 5pm
Post by: Swahmad on May 24, 2024, 05:41:03 pm
Follow up from my previous post. Apologies to those who I accidentally clocked the report button on.

The carpark at work is often full and there is another one right next to it which clearly states parking charges apply from 5pm on weekdays.

On a previous occasion I was parked till 530pm and got fine; fair enough. However on 3 occasions now I've been fined for parking from 9am till max 2pm. Even at this time if you try to make a payment it doesn't let you. Parking eye does not have a contact number which can be used to contact a human being.

Could someone look at the sign and give me their opinion?

One I have appealed and been rejected. One I need to pay/appeal by tomorrow and 3rd in a few days

The ticket dated 3/5/24 and issued on 7/3/24 has been appealed and rejected. A new one has been issued for this on 21/5/24.

The other two are currently as they stand but I will be appealing the one dated 7/5/24 and issued 10/5/24 tonight as tomorrow will be day 14 and don't want to go over. Or at least give me more time. I will then appal the third one (3 in total) closer to the day 14 mark.

There are 3 tickets in total. The first one has been appealed and has 2 letters - one before the appeal and one after.

The second fine has 2 letters. The initial one and a second one sent on 19th which I'm assuming is a reminder letter and has the case law on the back.

The initial letter for the first fine, the initial letter for the second fine and the letter for the third fine all have protection of freedom act written on the back.

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