Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: JD1905 on May 24, 2024, 09:31:39 am

Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: dave-o on August 05, 2024, 02:59:19 pm

Our company car policy is very clear that colleagues will be responsible for any parking or driving related fine, so I don’t believe that any deduction from your pay will be unlawful .


As i'm sure has been mentioned before, this isn't a fine though, it's a speculative invoice.  The are effectively saying that if they received an invoice for some goods or services that you had never agreed to purchase, they would pay for it and deduct it from your wages.  And this would be lawful!
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on August 05, 2024, 02:10:30 pm
I have a final update from my employer regarding this. I was deducted £75 for a £60 fine from my pay last week.


------------

Hi

As promised I have raised the issue with NI Fines with *the leasing company* and asked them to review the process for these fines.  I’ve had a call with the *the leasing company* team to discuss their findings and they have confirmed that the process has changed in NI and that they agree that once a fine has been paid there is no recourse to appeal.

Our legal contract with *the leasing company* around the management of fines is pretty simple, they must pay the fine immediately to avoid the amount increasing so adopting a different process for fines incurred in NI isn’t going to be an option at this time.

What they have agreed to do is to review any appeal they receive from a driver and if there are grounds for the fine being disputed, they will not process any deduction from a drivers pay.  If the driver still disputes the fine, but the case isn’t straight forward, *the leasing company* will escalate to *your employer* for the case to be considered and a decision made about whether the deduction should be taken from the drivers pay.

Our company car policy is very clear that colleagues will be responsible for any parking or driving related fine, so I don’t believe that any deduction from your pay will be unlawful .

I appreciate that you were hoping for a change in the process for NI fines, but at this time, the current process will remain the same.

Many thanks for your patience whilst I’ve looked into this matter.


----------------

So - the leasing have agreed that once the fine is paid that there is no way to make an appeal, however you can appeal directly to the leasing company and they will decide if there is grounds for it to be disputed.

I'll be quite honest, that I don't plan to stay with this employer longer than the end of the year - Is it worth me getting a solicitor for the sake of what will be £200 or so, when I plan to leave the job anyway, maybe not? I'll have a think about what I do next, the process is clearly completely flawed, but with it being such a money maker for the leasing company they are unwilling to change the process.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: The Rookie on June 26, 2024, 11:00:28 am
Final word from my HR team.

"There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"
If you have definitely never signed a contract with the leasing company, then ask them to show you a copy of the signed contract (which would come from the leasing company to validate their 'claim') BEFORE they garnish your wages.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on June 25, 2024, 05:06:44 pm
Your dispute, for now is with your employer. They are the ones garnishing your wages. You may have to sue them for the return of the money. The complexity is how your employer and the lease company are contractually obligated to each other.

You should certainly seek legal advice. Find a suitable legal firm that specialises in employment and contract law and see if you can get a initial consultation on whether they think you have a case.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 25, 2024, 04:52:19 pm
I'm sorry but it has now become even more confusing because you say your HR dept have told you "There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"

I was under the impression that your company is the lessee/hirer of the vehicle and it will be they who have the contract with the lease company. What you have shown suggests that you have some sort of contract with the lease company, not your employer. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

The leasing company's "fines team" have evidenced their intellectual malnourishment in that response. You should feel at liberty to point out the following to them, in no uncertain terms:

As this was not a "fine" from an authority but an invoice from an unregulated private parking company and the liability for the invoice simply could have been transferred to the lessee/hirer as per the information in the NtK, the response from them is evidence that they are either stupid or too inexperienced to be dealing with these matters. A simple transfer of liability as advised in the NtK would have absolved them from any further liability or charges.

The PPC have no involvement in this. They have been paid and couldn't give a rats @rse about the plight of the OP. This is a contractual matter between the OP, their employer and the lease company. It would appear that the lease company acted recklessly by simply paying the charge, whether the contract with the lessee allowed them to do so or not. The lease company have a "Fines team" that are obviously stupid or simply plain ignorant about PCNs.

If the OP is a member of a union or professional association they should seek advice from them and also, if they have legal advice cover with one of their insurance policies, the should avail themselves of that. It should be legal advice from someone with experience of employment and contact law.

Thank you for the response once again. No, I have never taken out a contract with the leasing company.

We used another company when I got the car (never signed an agreement with them either) and my employer recently changed leasing company and moved all of the contracts over, a month in - they implemented this new fines process.

I'm not a member of any unions unfortunately, so it'll be on me to pick up any legal costs on this one. Feel like i've hit the end of the road and no other option.

I guess others would probably let this drop, but absolutely nothing stopping this from happening to me again (and others). Like I said, this is a huge company with one of the largest fleet of vehicles in the U.K. So it will be an absolute money spinner.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on June 25, 2024, 04:25:04 pm
I'm sorry but it has now become even more confusing because you say your HR dept have told you "There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"

I was under the impression that your company is the lessee/hirer of the vehicle and it will be they who have the contract with the lease company. What you have shown suggests that you have some sort of contract with the lease company, not your employer. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

The leasing company's "fines team" have evidenced their intellectual malnourishment in that response. You should feel at liberty to point out the following to them, in no uncertain terms:

As this was not a "fine" from an authority but an invoice from an unregulated private parking company and the liability for the invoice simply could have been transferred to the lessee/hirer as per the information in the NtK, the response from them is evidence that they are either stupid or too inexperienced to be dealing with these matters. A simple transfer of liability as advised in the NtK would have absolved them from any further liability or charges.

The PPC have no involvement in this. They have been paid and couldn't give a rats @rse about the plight of the OP. This is a contractual matter between the OP, their employer and the lease company. It would appear that the lease company acted recklessly by simply paying the charge, whether the contract with the lessee allowed them to do so or not. The lease company have a "Fines team" that are obviously stupid or simply plain ignorant about PCNs.

If the OP is a member of a union or professional association they should seek advice from them and also, if they have legal advice cover with one of their insurance policies, the should avail themselves of that. It should be legal advice from someone with experience of employment and contact law.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 25, 2024, 03:30:55 pm
Having spoken with HR they informed me


'I would advise going back to *the leasing company* to check exactly what evidence they are lookking for. It is standard practice to pay fines, but there is still an appeal process through *the leasing company*. '


'*The employer* are processing instructions from *The Leasing company* in these cases and it would be for *the leasing company* to change the process if it is not applicable in Northern Ireland'

Final word from my HR team.

"There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"

Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 25, 2024, 03:20:38 pm
Having spoken with HR they informed me


'I would advise going back to *the leasing company* to check exactly what evidence they are lookking for. It is standard practice to pay fines, but there is still an appeal process through *the leasing company*. '


'*The employer* are processing instructions from *The Leasing company* in these cases and it would be for *the leasing company* to change the process if it is not applicable in Northern Ireland'
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: The Rookie on June 25, 2024, 12:44:34 pm
Got what is likely to be the final update from the leasing company.

'Our Fines team have advised us that , *the leasing company*, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, will continue to incur charges if the parking fine or parking charges (or any similar contraventions) are not paid. If left unpaid, *the leasing company* may be subject to further fees and other costs incurred for bailiffs or any other legal costs which *the leasing company* will have to re-charge to the driver’s employer. The agreement we have in place with the driver’s employer obligates the employer to be responsible for any fines, penalties, or parking fines/charges (or similar contraventions). This is the arrangement *the leasing company* has with the driver’s employer, the driver is welcome to engage directly with their employer in relation to this arrangement.

*the leasing company* can appeal the fine if the driver supplies Arval with the relevant evidence to challenge the contravention.

If you have any evidence on which we can appeal this charge, please let us know and we can appeal.


But it's BS as they just had to name you as hirer and would have had no liability at that point. So no they wouldn't have "continue to incur charges".

As for the last line, that shows a complete misunderstanding as they closed your/their/any route to appeal by paying.

I don't think it's 'fair enough' at all, it's abject incompetence by them.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 25, 2024, 10:18:11 am
Got what is likely to be the final update from the leasing company.

'Our Fines team have advised us that , *the leasing company*, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, will continue to incur charges if the parking fine or parking charges (or any similar contraventions) are not paid. If left unpaid, *the leasing company* may be subject to further fees and other costs incurred for bailiffs or any other legal costs which *the leasing company* will have to re-charge to the driver’s employer. The agreement we have in place with the driver’s employer obligates the employer to be responsible for any fines, penalties, or parking fines/charges (or similar contraventions). This is the arrangement *the leasing company* has with the driver’s employer, the driver is welcome to engage directly with their employer in relation to this arrangement.

*the leasing company* can appeal the fine if the driver supplies Arval with the relevant evidence to challenge the contravention.

If you have any evidence on which we can appeal this charge, please let us know and we can appeal.


I think it's fair enough - this is an issue with my employer now and i'll raise it with HR to discuss with them.


Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on June 05, 2024, 10:07:03 pm
The issues regarding the original breach and NTK cannot be ignored IMO because the OP said they were still having dialogue pursuant to the leasing company's response to their original - but unseen- contact.

Only once all internal procedural options have been exhausted could the OP look to dispute matters with their employer on the narrow point at issue..about which we know nothing except the OP's assertion that 'There was no clear signage to indicate that the car was parked contrary to any restrictions'. We don't know, because the OP hasn't responded on this point, even what restrictions were in place(according to the creditor) and on what day the breach actually occurred because the time on site went past midnight. 

Of course they're free to take issue with their employer regarding a provision in their employment contract at any time.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: The Rookie on June 05, 2024, 10:40:45 am
I agree, anything around the original charge is irrelevant now.

HOWEVER the policy says he will have a chance to 'dispute the charge by letting them know' and they didn't provide that opportunity, by paying it on immediate receipt before he was aware of the charge and able to 'let them know' it they went against their own policy. As such, IMO, they voided their right to then garnish the wages in line with the policy they failed to comply with.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on June 05, 2024, 10:29:04 am
I don't think the reason for the original PCN is at issue. That has been paid by someone other than the OP. It wasn't even addressed to him. The PPC won't care as they have their money.

This is now an issue about from who should/can the OP claim back the money that is being garnished from his salary. It has nothing to do with the PPC. It is either his employer or the lease company, if it was they who paid the PCN.

I would like to know what the outcome is but I don't think we are qualified to give much more advice and it is more likely that a qualified lawyer with a specialisation in employment or contract law would be more suitable.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 05, 2024, 09:23:15 am
There was no clear signage to indicate that the car was parked contrary to any restrictions and the car was being used in line with my company car policy / agreement.

I'll await a response from my employer, but I think you only option that I have really is to get legal advice on this. I thank you for your responses and will come back and update once it is concluded.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on June 04, 2024, 06:40:15 pm
OP, your 'employment contract' comprises more than the bare minimum prescribed by law which, if my memory is correct, is something like job title, place of work, hours of work, leave entitlement, salary, when paid etc. It includes a host of other policies and procedures e.g. absence policy, grievance, disciplinary etc. etc.

And the answers to the questions regarding whether the vehicle was where alleged and whether in breach etc. which have not yet been addressed are?? 
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: slapdash on June 04, 2024, 03:26:45 pm
I'll also check my employment contract.

It doesn't have to be in your employment contract to allow its deduction from salary. It just needs to be appropriately agreed somewhere.

e.g. Your car user agreement or similar.

Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on June 04, 2024, 03:21:17 pm
OP, assuming you know on what date did the car entered Marlborough House and on what date did it leave, what was the permitted time, if any, on the site?

What limits, if any, are placed on your use of the car under company's policy, was it being operated within these and, if not, what ramifications could come back your way?

Unless as has been flagged you have some form of access to free legal advice then I suggest you think what is in your wider and future financial and employment interests and set these against the issue of £100 in respect of a parking charge which, for all we know, was properly raised.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on June 04, 2024, 10:51:55 am
"7.4. You agree that we may deduct from your salary, or any other sums owed to you, any
money owed to us or to any Group Company, by you including, but not limited to:
7.4.1. any overpayment of salary or accrued holiday pay, training course fees,
outstanding loans.
7.4.2. Anything we may have paid you from a bonus incentive or commission
scheme, if the scheme allows it."
7.4 refers to money owed by you. It would require some twisted logic if the company paid an invoice addressed to them without informing you beforehand that it was your responsibility to deal with it. If you had been given the opportunity to deal with the invoice and go through the process of appealing it, you would not necessarily have owed the company anything.

The rest of that para, whilst not being limited, does not infer that invoices from unregulated private parking companies addressed to the company are something that you owe them if they disregard your right to deal with it before they do so.

Do you belong to any union or professional association that can provide you with legal advice? Do you have any insurance policy that includes legal cover? Those are two options where you may be able to at least get some initial advice on how to proceed.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on June 04, 2024, 10:27:11 am
Thank you for the further responses - the fine is for £100. My employer has over 100,000 employees and therefore i've not problem with pushing back and trying to get this resolved (in the right and most professional way of course.

I'm awaiting the leasing company to respond to me requesting that it be appealed as per the policy and will continue to follow the process. I'll also check my employment contract. Once this is done i'd be happy enough to raise a formal grievance through our HR process.

Update - this is in my employment contract regarding deductions.

"7.4. You agree that we may deduct from your salary, or any other sums owed to you, any
money owed to us or to any Group Company, by you including, but not limited to:
7.4.1. any overpayment of salary or accrued holiday pay, training course fees,
outstanding loans.
7.4.2. Anything we may have paid you from a bonus incentive or commission
scheme, if the scheme allows it."
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on June 03, 2024, 06:43:21 pm
+1. This is not the Scopes Trial, can I suggest that a sense of proportionality is brought to bear.

OP, I posted previously:

If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."


So, you have contacted the leasing company as per your company's Car Policy and you've had a response(dated when we've no idea).

I say again, IMO action this response and exhaust all internal methods before you even contemplate legal remedies.





Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: The Slithy Tove on June 02, 2024, 02:07:51 pm
Employment contracts often state that you will abide by/be bound by things like Company Handbook or Company Car Policy, and any changes made to them during your employment. Check carefully.

The use of the word "charges" alongside "fines" is, indeed ambiguous, and they would claim that it does include private parking charges.

Ultimately, though, how far this should be taken very much depends on the relationship the OP has with their employer, and what consequences may result in rocking the boat. Although challenging in this way shouldn't have an adverse effect, the smaller the company, and thus the closer the HR department is to the managers, the more likely it is to come back at you. I've worked in very large companies where I have felt no reticence in challenging HR where they are not sticking to what's in my contract. Also in very small companies where what's written down matters much less than my immediate relationship with the MD (which may be only one or two steps up the reporting ladder).
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on June 02, 2024, 01:50:03 pm
That term in your "company car policy" is an unfair term and has different meanings. Is the "company car policy" a part of your employment contract or is it a separate policy?

First, the term "Fines" in the policy states that you are responsible for paying "parking fines/charges" whilst using the company car. It says they must be paid promptly if they are sent to you or if they are sent to the leasing company they will be paid by the leasing company and the sum plus £12.50 plus VAT will be deducted from your salary.

There is an impossibility in the above clause in that if the PCN goes to the leasing company and they pay it, you have no way of knowing you are responsible for a PCN until it has been paid and deducted from your wages plus the admin fee. That is an unfair term.

The policy also defines those charges under "fines". A PCN from an unregulated private parking company is not and never can be a "fine". Therefore there are different meanings and they are ambiguous.

Unfortunately, the issues that have arisen are nothing to do with parking on private land or consumer rights. They are to do with your employment contract and company car policy. In your scenario, the key issues revolve around your employer's handling of the PCN and the subsequent wage deductions. This raises potential concerns under employment law, particularly regarding unauthorised deductions from wages and the fairness of your employer's actions.

The relevant statutes and principles concern the Employment Rights Act 1996 (ERA):

Section 13 prohibits unauthorised deductions from wages. Employers can only make deductions if they are required or authorised by statute, the employee's contract, or if the employee has given prior written consent. You need to find the relevant section of your employment contract that allows your employer to garnish your wages under these circumstances.

What are the implied terms in your employment contract? Your employer has a duty of mutual trust and confidence.

Your employer must act in a manner that does not destroy the trust and confidence inherent in your employment relationship. Arbitrary deductions without consultation may breach this duty.

The following is suggested on how you should progress this:

Arguing the Case. To address the issue of an unauthorised wage deduction for a PCN, consider the following steps:

1. Review the Employment Contract and Company Policy

Examine the employment contract and any relevant company policies regarding the use of company cars and handling of parking charges from unregulated private parking companies noting that this was not a "fine". Check if there is a specific clause that authorises your employer to deduct parking charges that are not "fines" from your salary.

2. Assess the Lawfulness of the Deduction

If your employment contract does not explicitly allow for such deductions, your employer may have breached Section 13 of the ERA by making an unauthorised deduction from your salary.

3. Consent: Even if there is a relevant clause, you, the employee, must have been made aware of it and given explicit or implicit consent.

4. Gather Evidence

Documentation: Collect all relevant documents, including the PCN/NtH etc., copies of all communication with your employer regarding the deduction, the employment contract, and company car policy.

5. Procedural Fairness: Note any lack of opportunity given to you to appeal the PCN or discuss the deduction before it was made.

6. Raise a Grievance

Use the company’s internal grievance procedures to formally raise the issue. Clearly outline why the deduction is believed to be unauthorised and unfair.

7. Seek Legal Advice

Consult an employment lawyer to understand the legal standing and potential remedies. Legal advice can provide tailored guidance based on the specifics of the case.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: The Slithy Tove on June 02, 2024, 01:05:03 pm
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car. These must
be paid promptly and if you don’t, or if the fine/charge is sent directly to 'The leasing company' as the registered
owner of the car, 'The leasing company' will pay on your behalf, and this will be deducted from your salary together
with an additional £12.50 plus VAT administration fee. Failure to pay any outstanding fines and
surcharges may result in disciplinary action being taken.
If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible
This would seem to be an inherently unfair clause as it allows you, the employee, absolutely no chance of disputing a charge. I could go out and find a leased car (obvious from the number plate or sticker in the back window) and simply send an invoice dressed up as a parking charge to the lease company in the hope that they might simply cough up with no question. (OK, let's not get into the basic potential unlawfulness of my doing that.) So, you can tell the leasing company that you are disputing the charge, but what would then happen is not clear. The parking company has the money, and will simply not engage. The same would be true for any real "fine" where there is no initial notice for the driver, e.g. a council enforced traffic offence or congestion charge.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on May 31, 2024, 04:52:10 pm
OP, you posted:

..Would the sensible move here to be request the leasing company to provide evidence that I was the driver of the vehicle are per Northern Ireland law?

Why? If nothing else this would seem totally premature because:

You also posted:
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car.....

...If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible


Then from the leasing company:

If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."

So, you have contacted the leasing company as per your company's Car Policy and you've had a response(dated when we've no idea).

Action this response and exhaust all internal methods before you even contemplate legal remedies.

Let's also put this in context: what sum of money is in dispute?

NB. your company's policy, and one by which it would seem you are bound, is that you are fully responsible for penalties etc. incurred while 'your company car' is allocated to you. Therefore it doesn't matter who was driving, under this policy you are held liable. That there might not be 'keeper liability' in NI is not the issue for the leasing company IMO. They have a contract with your employer who have agreed the manner in which such matters would be handled. Nowt to do with PoFA and ping-ponging the niceties of who was driving. 



Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: DWMB2 on May 29, 2024, 03:50:46 pm
Who was or may have been liable for the original parking charge is irrelevant now, as it has been paid. You could ask the leasing company why they voluntarily paid a charge for which they could not have been held liable, due to there being no provision in NI to recover parking charges from registered keepers, but they may not engage with you if their contract is with your employer. This is seemingly a dispute between you and your employer. Part of the issue seems to be that the policy is construed in such a way as to remove any opportunity for the original charge to be challenged by you.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on May 29, 2024, 03:46:32 pm
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car. These must
be paid promptly and if you don’t, or if the fine/charge is sent directly to 'The leasing company' as the registered
owner of the car, 'The leasing company' will pay on your behalf, and this will be deducted from your salary together
with an additional £12.50 plus VAT administration fee. Failure to pay any outstanding fines and
surcharges may result in disciplinary action being taken.
If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible


Would the sensible move here to be request the leasing company to provide evidence that I was the driver of the vehicle are per Northern Ireland law?

Grounds for appeal
Unlike England and Wales, the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) does not apply in
Northern Ireland. This means that the driver, rather than the registered keeper of
the vehicle, is liable for any private parking charges issued. The onus is on the
parking operator to issue the PCN letter to the driver of the vehicle. As the registered
keeper of the vehicle, you can appeal the PCN by asking the parking operator to
provide evidence that you were driving on the date of the alleged breach, if no
evidence exists, the PCN can be cancelled.
Also, if you feel there are extenuating circumstances involved in your case or that
the PCN has been issued incorrectly, you can appeal the PCN. Valid grounds for
appeals include signage being inadequate on site, errors with ANPR cameras, getting
a PCN for parking in a disabled bay despite having a valid blue badge or if you are an
employee within the grounds of the car park.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on May 29, 2024, 03:30:52 pm
Thank you all for your responses - I have received a response from the leasing company below

"I do apologise for the delay in responding.
 
When 'The leasing company' took over the 'employ' contract from 'previous leasing company', communications around fines and the new process were communicated to the driver population.
 
The contract is between 'the leadsing company' and 'your employer' therefore drivers would not sign any type of contract. The policy is ‘pay and rebill’ to 'your employer' and this is to avoid fine costs escalating. If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."
 


I think this answers a few of the questions that have been mentioned. I do want to fight this, because the fine should not have been issued. I will try and dig out an extract from our company car policy on fines in the meantime.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: H C Andersen on May 24, 2024, 09:30:32 pm
I have received a copy of a privately issued PCN from the leasing firm that my company use.

So the PCN was issued to the leasing firm who paid the charge. Yes?

My initial lease was with a different company, they transferred the lease over to this new company recently and last month implemented the new policy that they will pay fines on your behalf and apply an Admin fee. This is taken out of my salary.

Secondly, I never signed any agreement with the leasing company that allowed them to make payments for fines and deduct them from my salary - there is also nothing in my contract of employment which states this.


OP, let's get the facts absolutely clear pl. I suggest using the terms leasing company, your employer and you

The leasing company's agreement for this vehicle is with who, your employer or you? Logic dictates that it should be your employer, otherwise your salary wouldn't enter the equation, instead you'd be sent an invoice by the leasing company.

I won't go into what flows from this until we know who's who.

Let's take this one step at a time.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: slapdash on May 24, 2024, 06:00:45 pm
It may be an illegal deduction. However:-

- Of itself that doesn't remove any liability you may have. They just can't deduct it.

- Your contact of employment is very unlikely to cover it.

- A side agreement of some description would be common as a user of a company vehicle. This would typically cover it (or at least attempt to, but many won't. They will tend to talk about "fines and penalties".).

- If not covered how much do you want to pushback.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on May 24, 2024, 05:32:19 pm
Just so the OP understands what should have happened... Smart Parking have no idea who the driver is. They get the keepers details from the DVLA and sent an NtK to the keeper, the lease company.

The lease company only has to tell Smart that the vehicle is leased to your company and send a copy of a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire/lease firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement, a copy of the hire/lease agreement and a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer/leasee under that hire agreement and that would have transferred liability to your company.

However, Smart will not have included copies of those documents which means that they could not rely on PoFA to transfer liability from the unknown driver to them, the hirer/leasee. Not only that, because the alleged breach of terms of parking occurred in NI, again, there is no keeper liability and PoFA does not even apply there. The lease company could have simply ignored the NtK and nothing would have come of it.

However, because your company has named you as the driver, you became the liable person in all this. Even though the lease company and your company could not be liable, you became so once your company threw you under the bus. The problem now is that the lease company paid the charge and then charged back to your company who have decided that they have the right to garnish your wages for the sins of others.

Check your employment contract carefully and seek advice from a qualified legal professional. Unfortunately, this is no longer just a parking charge issue.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: DWMB2 on May 24, 2024, 05:17:48 pm
Quote
This could be quite complex legally and perhaps you would be better off getting advice from someone who is legally trained.
This was one of my first thoughts, too. It's not really a parking dispute any more (other than the fact the charge itself ultimately stems from a parking charge) - it's somewhat outside of my wheelhouse (as is any NI specific legislation).
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: b789 on May 24, 2024, 04:50:29 pm
Smart are laughing al the way to the bank thanks to the lease company paying the charge when, in NI, there is no keeper liability.

OP, you now have to sue whoever plundered your wages. It's not (not so) Smart Parking. Your claim will be under breaches of the CRA 2015 and other contract law. You will need to show that your original lease has no reference to private invoices (this was not a fine or a penalty which are different matters entirely) being paid and then charged back. What clause is there in your employment contract that allows your employer to garnish your wages for someone else's mistake?

This could be quite complex legally and perhaps you would be better off getting advice from someone who is legally trained.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: DWMB2 on May 24, 2024, 04:34:37 pm
Who do you have a written agreement with relating to the vehicle, your employer or a leasing company (or both)?

If Smart Parking have been paid, then that is the end of their involvement in the matter. This is now a legal dispute between you, and whoever has taken your money. If it has been docked from your pay, the dispute would seemingly involve your employer in some capacity.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: Enceladus on May 24, 2024, 02:51:04 pm
In that case you need to click on the "report to moderator" button and ask for the topic to be moved to the "Private Parking Tickets" forum.
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on May 24, 2024, 02:07:25 pm
This is a private fine - apologies if posted in the wrong forum. Attached fine.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: Enceladus on May 24, 2024, 01:27:01 pm
Please post up.a scan or photos of the copy PCN. Just redact your name & address. If this is a "private" Parking Charge Notice then your topic needs to be moved to the correct sub-forum.
Title: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
Post by: JD1905 on May 24, 2024, 09:31:39 am
I'm sure this has come up plenty of times, and I did have a search of the forums to try and find some examples - but unfortunately drew a blank.

I have received a copy of a privately issued PCN from the leasing firm that my company use. Ticket was issued 4th May for £100. The recently implemented process, is that the leading company will pay any fine that is issued + a £12.50 Administration Fee. Unfortunately, by them doing so - there is then no right to appeal.

My initial lease was with a different company, they transferred the lease over to this new company recently and last month implemented the new policy that they will pay fines on your behalf and apply an Admin fee. This is taken out of my salary.

Now, two problems I have with this. Firstly, I feel that there should be a right to appeal. By the leasing company paying any fines, it denies this right.

Secondly, I never signed any agreement with the leasing company that allowed them to make payments for fines and deduct them from my salary - there is also nothing in my contract of employment which states this. The agreement I signed was with the previous leasing company, of which no such terms existed.

I've wrote to both parties to explain the above, but i'm unsure where I stand legally. I'm usually really on the ball when it comes to anything legal, and more often than not I find that the law protects you from being screwed over - but i'm not sure about it this time!