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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: rizlagunner on May 22, 2024, 12:26:00 pm

Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: John U.K. on March 05, 2025, 05:00:11 pm: Quote from: ddavis876 on March 05, 2025, 04:49:24 pm
Good afternoon all,

It appears I have suffered the same fate as and been hit with a PCN for driving in an area I did not know and is restricted. Are there any pre-prepared documents available I can use to have my PSN rescinded? Appreciate it is a big ask but viewing the video on the council website, the warning signage is ridiculously unfit for purpose.

Any help is appreciated, thank you.

PCN: CR22030471
Plate: AY74 KNL

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%26lt%3Bblockquote+class%3D%26quot%3Bimgur-embed-pub%26quot%3B+lang%3D%26quot%3Ben%26quot%3B+data-id%3D%26quot%3Ba%2FxRp55AJ%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3Ba+href%3D%26quot%3B%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FxRp55AJ%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fa%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fblockquote%26gt%3B%26lt%3Bscript+async+src%3D%26quot%3B%2F%2Fs.imgur.com%2Fmin%2Fembed.js%26quot%3B+charset%3D%26quot%3Butf-8%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fscript%26gt%3B&hash=ba4fb5ca57364c3f19c48efbbdb6605dfe1492a0)

(https://imgur.com/a/xRp55AJ)

For meaningful advice please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Then start your own thread with a brief account of the circumstances
and post up there

all sides of the PCN (only redact yr name & address),
any Council photos/ video,
and
a GSV link to the location.,
Title: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: ddavis876 on March 05, 2025, 04:49:24 pm: Good afternoon all,

It appears I have suffered the same fate as and been hit with a PCN for driving in an area I did not know and is restricted. Are there any pre-prepared documents available I can use to have my PSN rescinded? Appreciate it is a big ask but viewing the video on the council website, the warning signage is ridiculously unfit for purpose.

Any help is appreciated, thank you.

PCN: CR22030471
Plate: AY74 KNL

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%26lt%3Bblockquote+class%3D%26quot%3Bimgur-embed-pub%26quot%3B+lang%3D%26quot%3Ben%26quot%3B+data-id%3D%26quot%3Ba%2FxRp55AJ%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3Ba+href%3D%26quot%3B%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FxRp55AJ%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fa%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fblockquote%26gt%3B%26lt%3Bscript+async+src%3D%26quot%3B%2F%2Fs.imgur.com%2Fmin%2Fembed.js%26quot%3B+charset%3D%26quot%3Butf-8%26quot%3B%26gt%3B%26lt%3B%2Fscript%26gt%3B&hash=ba4fb5ca57364c3f19c48efbbdb6605dfe1492a0)

(https://imgur.com/a/xRp55AJ)
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on December 23, 2024, 02:05:55 am: I just received a notification for this so thought I would clarify. I did unfortunately end up paying them all. Between work and personal life I simply did not have the time and energy to fight these, even though I still believe these are predatory and the placement and height of the warning boards is 100% not fit for purpose, or rather fit for the purpose of Croydon council budgeting approximately £10 million a year in revenue from fines.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: ML on December 22, 2024, 04:29:13 pm: Yeah, I know. It's really annoying. But that's life. :( Thanks for responding anyway. (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji1431.png)
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: Incandescent on December 22, 2024, 01:45:32 pm: If there's nothing after cp8759's post, then no, the OP never got back to us. This happens frequently.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: ML on December 22, 2024, 01:38:41 pm: Hi, everyone. :)

First post here, but I used to be on the previous page a long, loooong time ago; then, I suffered a near fatal medical catastrophic event, and it's only now I am picking up the pieces of my old threads, albeit with reduced energy capacity. :-\

Anyway. Enough about that for now. :)

The reason I am posting on this oldish thread is I wondered whether OP had ever posted back to say what he had done in the end?

I am kind of assuming that he just paid up rather than taking a chance with adjudication, but it would have been nice to know one way or another! ;)

I'll start my own thread on the topic in a minute, anyone can guess why! ;) :D :)
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 07:51:22 pm: Quote from: rizlagunner on June 18, 2024, 12:41:26 pm
Note: I have not yet received any notices of rejection as of today except for the first PCN. All the representations were filed on the same day.
Well all the PCNs have been reset so we know all the NoRs have been sent, whether the Royal Mail will reliably deliver them is somewhat academic at this point.

The key question now is whether you want to carry on or not. You can try and argument that the overall amount is excessive, but the only favourable cases I am aware of are quite old:

Mahabub Sumon v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2140263304, 7 July 2014) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r_sUvfo7mcaDYkBqbYBbIu6m3PP25WqP/view)
James Harris v London Borough of Haringey (2160273606, 26 July 2016) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19QKNdJfdK3w_DfgXZHjF6UUzt1ZPmgY4/view)
Atilla Apaydin v London Borough of Hounslow (2190063191, 18 March 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayxyVNY-YQcRhQB35sZC08-YSip8u6pE/view)

Mr Styles might well not decide the same issue in the same way if the same matter came up today (especially given the Halton (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.pdf) decision), and the other two adjudicators only sit once in a blue moon.

You might get lucky (the council might not contest the appeal, or it might mess up the evidence pack), but there is a large element of ris in carrying on. Therefore whether you wish to pursue this depends largely on your attitude to risk.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on June 18, 2024, 12:41:26 pm: Note: I have not yet received any notices of rejection as of today except for the first PCN. All the representations were filed on the same day.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on June 18, 2024, 12:39:58 pm: Quote from: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:18:13 pm
Well there's a reason why we tell people to put a draft representation on here before submitting to the council.

At this point all I can suggest is that you show us a copy of what you've already sent and we'll have to see if there is an arguable failure to consider.

Unfortunately I was pressed for time and wanted to get my representation in within the 14 days. Part of the issue is having moved houses, the notices are still going to previous address where I was living with parents. So even with the first notice being received later than all the subsequent contraventions, actual receipt of the notices was even later. The following is what I submitted for the 4 other PCNs individually. I was not aware that the option to appeal them jointly existed.

Dear Sir/Madam.

With reference to the subject PCN for contravention 53J, I would like to file an appeal against the PCN for the following two reasons:

1. Representation made against first PCN no. CR20178336 (date of notice 15/05/2024) for unclear signage.

2. Excessive penalty on the basis that I had not yet received the first PCN in this regard (PCN no. CR20178336 issued on 15/05/2024 and received by post on 17/05/2024).

I have made representations against PCN no. CR20178336 (contravention took place on 09/05/2024) on the basis of unclear signage on approach to this roundabout on Lodge Road.

Additionally, the first PCN was received by post on 17th May 2024, however in the meantime I was issued PCN no. CR20214247 for contravention taking place on 13/05/2024 (received 22/05/2024).

Had I received the first PCN immediately, I would have been forewarned of the inaccuracy of this sat nav route as well as the location of restriction signs on this route. Unfortunately this PCN was received too late for me by the 17th May 2024 to correct my taken route and subsequent contravention on 13/05/2024.

Since the receipt of the first PCN, I have stopped taking this route and no other contravention has taken place. The issuance of multiple PCNs for the same contravention is a significant financial burden for me. I therefore request the authority to cancel this follow on PCN.

Regards,
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:18:13 pm: Well there's a reason why we tell people to put a draft representation on here before submitting to the council.

At this point all I can suggest is that you show us a copy of what you've already sent and we'll have to see if there is an arguable failure to consider.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: Incandescent on June 16, 2024, 10:58:01 pm: In a case where PCNs dated after the first one, and dated before the date of receipt of the first PCN, but only received after receipt of the first PCN, these can be argued on the basis of not knowing an offence had been committed until the first PCN arrive in the post.

One would normally submit a single representation with a list of the PCNs, and a request to cancel, pointing out the first PCN (give number) has been paid.
Of course the council may not give way, but it is well worth trying. Many councils do give way, so don't be put off. Would this argument win at adjudication ? It might and has done in the past, but its not a slam-dunk argument, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on June 16, 2024, 10:04:47 pm: Thanks for the advice and I do think that they will not accept my argument, even though I have checked posts on Nextdoor that show there are other people fined at this spot who also feel the sign is in the wrong place. Honestly I am happy to pay the £65, my problem is the 4 additional tickets I received before receiving the first notice. Out of these one of the times was my spouse. So neither of us spotted this apparently clear signage and were also unfortunately distracted by Google maps owing to our new route and unfamiliarity with the area. I want the council to cancel the subsequent PCNs but I'm not sure how to go about doing this if they have rejected the representations. It is honestly way too much and puts a squeeze on our monthly finances.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 09:38:01 pm: @rizlagunner either you pay the discounted penalty of £65, or you appeal to the tribunal against the full amount. There is no option to appeal to the tribunal at the £65 rate, the council offers the 50% discount as an incentive because that saves them the hassle of having to fight a tribunal appeal.

So it's not as if you can appeal within 14 days and still pay £65 if you lose.

I don't think an argument against the adequacy of the signage will succeed in this instance and I wouldn't want you to throw good money after bad, but if you want to appeal regardless of the risks we will do our best to help you anyway. Please let us know how you'd like to proceed.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: Hippocrates on June 15, 2024, 01:09:50 pm: This enforcement is rather disproportionate. NOR has one issue re not mentioning power of adjudicator to extend time.

https://bit.ly/2ALghSS

adjudications/key cases: 332 ff.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on June 14, 2024, 09:18:34 pm: @cp8759 It appears to be head on approach but it isn't actually, if you look at the map of the intersection you can see that it is actually a turn into the road, and typically on a roundabout attention is not up ahead towards the exit but towards the right before entering.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on June 14, 2024, 09:15:50 pm: Hi, yes I have received the first notice of rejection but not the rest. In my representations for the other PCNs, I requested the council to refer to representation made in the first case for unclear signage as well as the fact that I did not receive the first PCN in time to rectify my actions. This led to a total of 5 PCNs which is quite frankly ridiculous. I might as well call them up to put me on a debt management plan because I simply can't afford it. I would like to take this to adjudication because I do believe the sign should precede the roundabout (as it does on the other turns), but I am also afraid of losing the 14 day discount which will make it a £130 x 5 = £650 penalty. All for trying to pick my own son from school. I hope others can take a look at this letter and see if there's anything to pick apart.

Edit: attachments not working so copy of letter as t this link: https://imgur.com/gallery/5o5hHGs
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: cp8759 on June 09, 2024, 07:06:51 pm: @rizlagunner well I can see the PCNs are back at £65, which indicates that a notice of rejection must have been issued with an extended offer of the discount.

Please show us the notices of rejection, you never know they might have messed up the paperwork.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: jmann on June 05, 2024, 02:05:20 pm: Hi,

I have a fine for exactly the same route and flashed at the same spot.
I wonder how did the OPs appeal go?
Will be nice to hear from you.

Thanks
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 06:04:48 pm: Video for CR20178336:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13SQksT5UFI

Video for CR20214247:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTxbrg6mJCI

Video for CR20228092:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wVOaeUL3uQ

I'm not sure what arguments can be made about the visibility of the signage, it seems you approached them head-on and must have just failed to notice them.

I would suggest sending a single representation via email to pcn@croydon.gov.uk listing all right PCNs, this way for any that they miss when issuing the rejections you have an open-and-shut case of failure to consider, but don't miss the 28 day deadline to make representations.

It's advisable to post a draft on here first.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on May 23, 2024, 09:26:53 am: Brilliant, thanks. I will get drafting. Can I ask where exactly did the council acknowledge visibility issues with restriction signs off Elmwood Road?
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: Incandescent on May 22, 2024, 09:00:35 pm: For PCNs dated after PCN 1, but before the date you received PCN 1, can be appealed on no knowledge of the contravention until the first PCN arrived. All PCNs can be appealed on inadequate signage. The council acknowledge that the restriction signs cannot be seen for turns off Elmwood Road, but an approach on Lodge Road going north is also a turn, and there have to be doubts as to the signs visibility before it is too late.

So you have two arguments to submit on your reps to the council as above. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel, but do post their response here when you get it.
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on May 22, 2024, 05:36:55 pm: Update, I have today received two further PCNs as expected. Same route and approach. The fact that I missed the sign every time is a clear indication of unclear signage, you simply can't see signs on exits before entering a roundabout and when you exit the sign is above you. Traffic from other approaches to roundabout have clear forewarning as indicated in third attachment showing the signs in the area.

2, the first PCN was received on 17 May for a contravention on 9 May (even though notice date is 15 May). The second two offences are 13 May and 14 May, and just about within 24 hours of each other, received today (22 May). I have not gone on this route since the first PCN received, and wouldn't have done so if signage was clear and I had had first PCN in time. I am certainly going to appeal this and hope someone can help out with template and whether my reasoning makes sense. I will be going to the area later to photograph the actual approach as well.

For ease of access, everything is placed within this folder: https://bit.ly/3WRhUJd

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on May 22, 2024, 02:36:18 pm: Hi, thanks for the reply and apologies for missing the guidelines. Have updated the title of my post and also attaching my approach, there are no warning signs on approach to roundabout. Copy of PCN attached too. There are signs when coming from the left or right to this street but none from my approach.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Can I contest this PCN for entering pedestrian zone for unclear signage?
Post by: Incandescent on May 22, 2024, 01:16:28 pm: I've said it many times on here, that reliance on satnavs in big cities is asking for trouble because they are never up-to-date.

Anyway, please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and update your post accordingly.

Please tell us your approach to the mini-roundabout, (street, direction etc).

GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date, so if you decide to take the matter further, we'll need photos of the approach and the signs.
Title: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone, unclear signage?
Post by: rizlagunner on May 22, 2024, 12:26:00 pm: So I have recently moved to a new house which has meant that my daily school runs to pick my son up have changed, and I have been following Google maps. I was well aware of pedestrianised zones in my old neighbourhood (which also had very clear signage) but following Google maps in an unfamiliar area has landed me a PCN for 'failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone' which is enforced during school hours between 2-4pm.

Now I have no issue with owning up and paying this ticket, the only trouble is I have taken this route around 7-8 times over the last two weeks. Now I fear the worst i.e. 8 tickets x £65 headed my way so I have to contest. My primary issue is that the sign is located right while exiting a roundabout. Should restrictions on exits not be indicated before entering a roundabout, because my focus while entering a roundabout is on traffic from the right rather than reading time restrictions. By the time you exit this roundabout you are literally under the sign with no overhead visibility and it is too late at that point already even if you turn around. You can see from the picture another car having spotted the sign late and making a dangerous turn in the road. Can this be a valid defence? Photo here:

https://imgur.com/gallery/1QJz5Wg

I am also very annoyed at the fact that Google maps can't display basic stuff such as this, this restriction came into force a year ago and the signs are still not visible on street view. Attaching a layout of signage in the area along with the direction of my approach.

Location of approach: https://maps.app.goo.gl/e8rFVgmnVUKzSJMz5

[attachment deleted by admin]