Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: HELPMYFINE on May 20, 2024, 03:04:16 pm
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So, according to the NtK, what is the timescale they say you should expect a response to an appeal? If they have passed that date and you have not had a response or they say that they did respond but you've not received anything (check spam folder) you need to complain that they have not followed the guidelines and you will be reporting them to the BPA.
I still don't see a picture of the NtK (front and back please). We need to know dates shown on it.
You said earlier on when questioned about what you wrote to either TNC or Parking Group: "...yes had a copy of it, I responded to it but didnt acknowledge who the driver was more a reflective letter (on visiting the site to get photos) stating the signs were not visable". Was that to PG as an initial appeal? What date was that and did you receive a response to that?
When and how did you send the second letter that we thought you'd sent to the MD of the property management company? Did you send it as an email? An PDF attachment to an email? Using their webform?
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Please take this as constructive criticism. It's a bit confusing when we are shown a letter and the OP says "Have hopefully found the owners of the land and sending their MD a message." It sounds like they are telling us that they have found someone to complain to and this is what they intend to send, when in fact they have actually sent it.
If it was intended for the MD of the company that owns the land, then it is totally inappropriate and it reads like an appeal to the PPC.
What I provided after that is what you should send to the PPC as an appeal. I have explained why some of the terminology you have used is wrong. You are now involved in a civil law legal process and whilst learning from mistakes is not a bad thing, when it comes to legal matters, it can be fatal to your case.
As I respond to at least 40 other cases a day, I am sometimes abrupt or even too sarcastic and for that I apologise. However, advice is freely given in an attempt to help the victims of these unfair PCNs challenge the ex-clampers that are trying to extort money from them.
Without trawling back through the thread, you are trying 4 plans. Plan A is to get the landowner to tell the PPC to cancel the PCN. Plan B (if there is still time) is to appeal to the PPC. Plan C (if Plan B is unsuccessful) is to appeal to the PPCs independent appeals service. Plan C is only possible if Plan B has been actioned.
Plan D is if/when this goes as far as a court claim. That is very often the best plan as it involves a trully independent arbiter, a judge, to decide whether you owe the PPC a debt for an alleged breach of contract.
Every step of the way you will be advised on what you need to do and what you can ignore. It is a process and we are experienced in what goes on and why.
The charge is initially £100 reduced to £60 if paid, uncontested, within 14 days. After 28 days they will usually add on a fake £60-£70 as "debt recovery fees". If it goes to a court claim it will go to £160/£170 + interest at 8%/annum calculated at a flat rate on a daily basis from day 28 plus a £35 court fee and £50 fixed legal costs. Expect a claim for around £250.
If it went to hearing and you lost, it is likely to be less than that because, as long as you behaved reasonably in the process, the judge should disallow the fake added DRA/damages fee and also any interest. In reality, if you were so unfortunate as to lose at that stage, you'd owe less than £200. Even after losing at a hearing, you would be in no danger of getting a CCJ. As long as the CCJ is paid within 30 days of judgment, there is no record of it on your credit file. It is completely expunged.
We are a long way off from that scenario, should it ever get that far. What these scammers rely on is their victims being that low-hanging fruit that will capitulate at the first signs of legal action and end up paying more than if they were to go to court and lose. That or their victims just failing to do anything and then they get a CCJ by default.
The number that actually fight these charges through this and the MSE forum are tiny in the overall scheme of things. Most have no idea about the civil litigation process and their rights. This is where we come in and do it without charge in our spare time.
Until the Government finally bring in the Parking on Private land (Code of Practice) Act 2019, this is the only way that this unregulated industry is going to face any resistance. Even then, it is likely that there'll need to be independent resistance to the PPCs.
Thanks for this and I appreciate the help from the forum.
The letter was sent to the PPC not the owner of the land and yes it was an appeal as i also asked for POPLA number if they reject the appeal. I am currently awaiting a response from the owner. Plan B was the appeal that they ignored. So do I go to the BPA and say they ignored my appeal and didnt even respond to it or just keep waiting to see what happens. I have tried to follow the process but they have failed to follow their own stipulated appeals process.
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Please take this as constructive criticism. It's a bit confusing when we are shown a letter and the OP says "Have hopefully found the owners of the land and sending their MD a message." It sounds like they are telling us that they have found someone to complain to and this is what they intend to send, when in fact they have actually sent it.
If it was intended for the MD of the company that owns the land, then it is totally inappropriate and it reads like an appeal to the PPC.
What I provided after that is what you should send to the PPC as an appeal. I have explained why some of the terminology you have used is wrong. You are now involved in a civil law legal process and whilst learning from mistakes is not a bad thing, when it comes to legal matters, it can be fatal to your case.
As I respond to at least 40 other cases a day, I am sometimes abrupt or even too sarcastic and for that I apologise. However, advice is freely given in an attempt to help the victims of these unfair PCNs challenge the ex-clampers that are trying to extort money from them.
Without trawling back through the thread, you are trying 4 plans. Plan A is to get the landowner to tell the PPC to cancel the PCN. Plan B (if there is still time) is to appeal to the PPC. Plan C (if Plan B is unsuccessful) is to appeal to the PPCs independent appeals service. Plan C is only possible if Plan B has been actioned.
Plan D is if/when this goes as far as a court claim. That is very often the best plan as it involves a trully independent arbiter, a judge, to decide whether you owe the PPC a debt for an alleged breach of contract.
Every step of the way you will be advised on what you need to do and what you can ignore. It is a process and we are experienced in what goes on and why.
The charge is initially £100 reduced to £60 if paid, uncontested, within 14 days. After 28 days they will usually add on a fake £60-£70 as "debt recovery fees". If it goes to a court claim it will go to £160/£170 + interest at 8%/annum calculated at a flat rate on a daily basis from day 28 plus a £35 court fee and £50 fixed legal costs. Expect a claim for around £250.
If it went to hearing and you lost, it is likely to be less than that because, as long as you behaved reasonably in the process, the judge should disallow the fake added DRA/damages fee and also any interest. In reality, if you were so unfortunate as to lose at that stage, you'd owe less than £200. Even after losing at a hearing, you would be in no danger of getting a CCJ. As long as the CCJ is paid within 30 days of judgment, there is no record of it on your credit file. It is completely expunged.
We are a long way off from that scenario, should it ever get that far. What these scammers rely on is their victims being that low-hanging fruit that will capitulate at the first signs of legal action and end up paying more than if they were to go to court and lose. That or their victims just failing to do anything and then they get a CCJ by default.
The number that actually fight these charges through this and the MSE forum are tiny in the overall scheme of things. Most have no idea about the civil litigation process and their rights. This is where we come in and do it without charge in our spare time.
Until the Government finally bring in the Parking on Private land (Code of Practice) Act 2019, this is the only way that this unregulated industry is going to face any resistance. Even then, it is likely that there'll need to be independent resistance to the PPCs.
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Nobody is giving you a public flogging. The advice b789 was giving is good, but he had misunderstood and thought that was a draft you were posting for feedback before sending, rather than something already sent.
At this stage, there's not much that can be done with the parking company, other than to wait and see if they take things to court. In the meantime, trying to get the landowner to intervene is your best bet.
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Not sure if that is sad targeted at me? OK so the letter isnt perfect but hence the reason I have come to the forum for guidance and advice. If I had the full knowledge and perfect response and knew exactly what to do then I wouldnt have joined the forum. Other than ripping me apart, if there is help and support that can be given then brilliant if not, please state im not here as the naughty school kid expecting to get a public flogging.
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@b789, I believe the letter above is what the OP has already submitted, to which no response was received.
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Dear Sir,
I am writing in response to your recent communication where-by you are looking to fine me as the owner of the vehicle xxxxx which had, according to your PCN breached parking rules within the site of Integra 61, Bowburn. Terms and conditions nobody within the vehicle agreed to.
Having visited the site, since receipt of your PCN, I notice that the signage is poorly placed, and is extremely limited (non existent) in the area of the car park where the car was apparently parked and on the walk way to the retail unit. The initial signage it seems is nearly impossible to see where it is located on a zebra crossing side ways on to the access road. There is nothing on the initial access road and limited signage once in the left car park nearest to Costa Coffee.
I do not feel there is sufficient signage that would notify anyone of the terms and conditions within the car park should they bear to the left in towards costa and therefore a driver could not make an informed decision as to whether they wish to remain or leave.
I would like to appeal this PCN/Fine and, if the appeal is rejected, be provided with the POPLA number so that I can escalate and pursue the matter with them.
I thank you in advance.
Inadequate. You are appealing as the keeper. There is no such thing as the "owner". We are dealing with either "driver" or "keeper". For now, without having yet seen this elusive NtK, we don't know whether it is fully compliant with PoFA and as such, only the driver, whose identity they don't know, unless you blabbed it, is liable. You are appealing as the keeper, because if the NtK fails to fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA, you cannot be liable as the keeper.
It is not a "fine" so please stop calling it one and somehow giving some kind of pseudo authority to an ex-clamper, unregulated private parking company. They are looking to charge/scam you. They cannot "fine" you.
You agree to the terms and conditions by remaining in the car park. It as agreement by action. "You" didn't notice the signs. The "driver" didn't notice the signs. See the difference and why so many people manage to screw these up by inadvertently revealing themselves to be both the driver and the keeper?
You are not writing to a "mate" or anyone who has any care about you or your circumstances. So, no signing off anything with "thanks". It should be serious and formal.
I will come back with a better suggestion than what you have proposed in a while.
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I've removed that upload as you left all of your personal information showing including full name and home address.
Strange as that was the redacted version. Im crap with this stuff.
thank you though
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Play nicely please both of you.
Do you have the exact text of what you wrote to them? Trying to ascertain if they've ignored an actual appeal (which they should not have), or whether what you submitted would not reasonably be considered an appeal.
Please see PCN now uploaded.
Have hopefully found the owners of the land and sending their MD a message.
Here is detail of letter
Dear Sir,
I am writing in response to your recent communication where-by you are looking to fine me as the owner of the vehicle xxxxx which had, according to your PCN breached parking rules within the site of Integra 61, Bowburn. Terms and conditions nobody within the vehicle agreed to.
Having visited the site, since receipt of your PCN, I notice that the signage is poorly placed, and is extremely limited (non existent) in the area of the car park where the car was apparently parked and on the walk way to the retail unit. The initial signage it seems is nearly impossible to see where it is located on a zebra crossing side ways on to the access road. There is nothing on the initial access road and limited signage once in the left car park nearest to Costa Coffee.
I do not feel there is sufficient signage that would notify anyone of the terms and conditions within the car park should they bear to the left in towards costa and therefore a driver could not make an informed decision as to whether they wish to remain or leave.
I would like to appeal this PCN/Fine and, if the appeal is rejected, be provided with the POPLA number so that I can escalate and pursue the matter with them.
I thank you in advance.
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I've removed that upload as you left all of your personal information showing including full name and home address.
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please see PCN now uploaded.
Have hopefully found the owners of the land and sending their MD a message.
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Play nicely please both of you.
Do you have the exact text of what you wrote to them? Trying to ascertain if they've ignored an actual appeal (which they should not have), or whether what you submitted would not reasonably be considered an appeal.
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I responded to them in writing stating I would like to appeal.
What was the point in that exactly?
As Yoda may say 'Appeal or don't appeal, there is no like to' As you didn't bother (it seems) to appeal they have continued on their standard letter chain (quite rightly).
Zzzzzzzzz - Really constructive Rookie.
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I responded to them in writing stating I would like to appeal.
What was the point in that exactly?
As Yoda may say 'Appeal or don't appeal, there is no like to' As you didn't bother (it seems) to appeal they have continued on their standard letter chain (quite rightly).
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What about the company they appoint as their agent to manage it?
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the person that owns Integra 61 is a company in guernsey. But not sure if they are the landowner that sold the land or currently own the land there is only one driector listed on compnaies house
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So, have you made any effort find out who does own the land? If it is a car park serving multiple businesses or shops then there may be an advertising plinth which would include the name of the management company. Just because Costa don't own the car park, somebody must.
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Yes had a response from their CEOs office and they said the land is nothing ot do with them they just have property on the land.
As well as all the above, a copy of what you wrote to them may also be useful.
And this?
yes had a copy of it, I responded to it but didnt acknowledge who the driver was more a reflective letter (on visiting the site to get photos) stating the signs were not visable
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You say you don't have a copy of the PCN (NtK). Did you ever have a copy of it?
We are not interested in the debt collector letters. No need to show those. Any debt collector letters can be safely ignored.
What about Plan A? Have you contacted Costa to ask them to get the PCN cancelled?
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As well as all the above, a copy of what you wrote to them may also be useful.
And this?
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PPC - Parking Group Limited
TNC is the collections company
Location Costa Coffee Integra 61 Retail - Bowburn Durham
This is a shared drive through of cost and greggs - seems there are more signs over on the greggs side.
same entrance but splits off strisght ahead for greggs and bears left for Costa
Dont have copy of PCN at moment jsut the Debt Collectors
[attachment deleted by admin]
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As well as all the above, a copy of what you wrote to them may also be useful.
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Please have a read here first:
READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
You have provided insufficient information. Which PPC? We need to see the NtK including all dates. Just redact your personal data, VRM and PCN number. Where was this location? Do you have any photos of the signs you claim are "horrendous".
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PCN received from a company. I responded to them in writing stating I would like to appeal. Not had any response from them. Next thing was a letter from TNC debt collection for £170 pounds.
Having received the PCN I visited the site and the signage is horrendous for a start which was going to be the basis of the appeal but wasnt given the chance.
What do I do?
Anyone advise what to do next?