Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Tetley31 on May 17, 2024, 01:09:17 pm
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https://1drv.ms/w/s!AkS0W5E6rdFJwnvUc1aj1EApdo0t?e=598ujt
is this better, sorry i have very little time, as im a full time carer, and have 3 children.
not making excuses, just literally no time.
if someone can just let me know if it makes sense.
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It'd be wise for you to do some formatting before we take a look. As @b789 notes, there are a complete lack of paragraphs, which makes it appear as a wall of text, and therefore hard to read. You should try to make it as readable as possible for the assessor.
I also notice reference to a few URLs - where you do this, you should ensure that any content you want to draw attention to from that website is included in your appeal - you should work on the assumption that the assessor will not click any links.
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I'm sorry. I simply do not have the time to read through even the first point which runs to 5 pages without breaks. I note that there is mention of "OPS" indicating that you have simply copied and pasted from other appeals without even checking it.
You have to put a bit more effort into it and we will advise as necessary but please don't expect us to do your proof-reading.
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thanks, it was just a draft, i just wanted to check the wording and arguements were ok. if you do get a chance i would be ever so grateful. thanks in advance. when i get a chance ill change the order of the points as you suggested
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I haven't fully read it yet as there is little formatting to break up such large walls of text. However, looking at the points, you should order them as such:
1) The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 – no keeper liability.
2) The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge
3) There are no ground markings at this site to delineate bays where a driver can and cannot park.
4) Misleading and unclear signage
5) No evidence of Landowner Authority
6) No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers
I suggest you edit the document to make it more readable by inserting suitable paragraph breaks.
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a
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Their rejection actually supports the appeal point #5 in b789's suggested list... How can a sign that declares "Strictly No Parking" form the basis of a contract to park in exchange for £100?
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No. You have had a response by email. You have the POPLA code in the attached letter.
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thanks hero, i meant to say i have not had anything in the post. the only thing i received was this via email.https://imgur.com/a/FxlfNS8
shouldnt i get it in the post as well? or not
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All very good evidence for POPLA. However, in your line drawing, you have admitted to being the driver. I suggest you edit that to say "where the driver parked".
Did the operator provide evidence of the NtD attached to the vehicle?
To start, list all the issues you want to appeal such as (but not limited to):
1. The PCN does not fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA so the keeper cannot be liable.
2. The operator has not shown that the person they are pursuing is the driver.
3. The signage does not comply with the requirements of the BPA CoP.
4. The signs do not adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge.
5. The signs cannot form a contract with the driver.
6. There are no ground markings at this site to delineate bays where a driver can and cannot park.
7. The operator does not have a valid contract flowing from the landowner allowing it issue PCNs in its own name.
Throw the kitchen sink at them. Do a bit of research based on the above and put together what you think is a good appeal. Show us before you send anything and we will critique it and assist in formatting it.
You have until 9th August to submit your POPLA appeal. That's 3 weeks away.
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hiya, right i visited the hospital today, and i took lots of photos, see here
https://imgur.com/a/XNbLx8F
what i noticed they have now tput tape around where not to park, and also 1 cone in the centre between where myself and another car parked. in the photos from today, it is space next to the red car i parked in.
I did attach a sketch, and also another image of another car parked there at a previous time i visited.
to help .
the road markings are barely visible and to me this space still seems like it is one.
could someone help me compile a appeal for popla asap
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thankyou, will do, im going to the hosptial next friday, so ill take as many photos as i can, thankyou very much for your help
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Don't worry about HCA, he can be very onerous and is a stickler for details, not that that is a problem, but they are not always necessary, at least in a civil action such as this. For now, we need to see the state of the ground markings where the driver parked and at the other "bays" nearby. The signage in a general view of the location and maybe a single close up of the terms on the sign.
As you were not using a disabled bay, mention of the blue badge is irrelevant as is the fact that you had children with you or not. POPLA willingly consider facts in law and the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) to determine whether the PCs was issued correctly.
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As mentioned where i parked, appeared to be a parking space, every time i come to this hospital cars are parked there.
there are no markings so it looks a space.
to be honest i dont understand why it isnt.
i will try and take some photos. yes i had my kids with me.
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OP, just to pick up on a couple of points from your posts:
I looked around, there was a sign on the other side of the road, saying no parking, but it clearly was for that side of the road. there were NO ROAD signs saying no parking where i parked.
There is no 'other side of the road', it's a car park and signs apply spatially i.e. setting out parking conditions which apply to the area, not individual spaces.
Your first post doesn't mention that you were carrying children and therefore if you weren't and you don't hold a BB in your own name then it is a misleading point.
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Photos of the state of the ground markings are crucial. After you find somewhere to park on your next visit, it is worth your while to go to the location and take those photos.
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Hi hero, no there are no parking lines in the whole carpark, and where i parked it is just a blank space like the rest of the carpark
the sign wouldnt be visible from where i parked, it is on the opposite side. im going to the hospital next friday, i can try and take some more photos, it is quite tricky because the carpark is always full and you cant really stop anywhere but i can do my best
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i am pregnant, and also my children are disabled so i have a blue badge.
Which, as you should know, is irrelevant here, lets stick to the tried and trusted methods not go off on a tangent of no use.
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Not to worry. You were already advised that Premier Park would reject any appeal. The next stage is an appeal to POPLA.
The POPLA code is valid for 33 days from the date of the appeal rejection, not 28 days as it says on the letter. You have plenty of time to put this together.
Looking at the photo you have shown, I cannot see any ground marking delineating a bay where any of the cars are parked, never mind where the driver parked. Can you get some more photos of the general area to show the state of the car park and ground markings. Also a shot of the sign as it appeared from where the car was parked. Not a close up. Just how it would appear within the general layout.
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hello they rejected my appeal. quite frustrating as they say the health board said it was where emergency vechiles couldnt get past, which is rubbish. I have been to the hopsital many time since, and cars are always parked here. it looks like a space, because there is no sign up, i think this is totally appalling. when i emailed pals, they said they were sorry and wished they could cancel it, but told me to appeal it.
the emergency vechiles do not come anywhere near this part of the car park, plus there is so much space.
i am pregnant,and also my children are disabled so i have a blue badge.
the signs are on the other side of the road, and where i parked i genuinely thought was a space, see attached images, where i have circled a mini, that is where i parked.
as i say every time i come to the hospital cars are parked here. can someone help me with an appeal.
https://imgur.com/a/FxlfNS8
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You have to leave all dates showing please.
You will have to appeal within 28 days of the issue date of the NtK. It is likely that any appeal to Premier Pro is going to be rejected. What you want is a POPLA appeal number that comes with the rejection of your appeal to the NtK.
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https://imgur.com/a/TDXWNDg
shows the one on the windscreen which i appealed but they rejected as they said i wouldnt name the driver
and now the one in the post. whats the next step?
yes i appealed on the 9th june, but on the 10th june i received a rejection email, saying the appeal was rejected.
i then received the one in the post around the 20th june.
im pregnant, and i was attending the hopsital because i had a scan,the car was parked in a spot that did not have the signs up, they were on the other side of the road, and also there were other cars parked in this space, when we parked there, we had no idea it was not a space.
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So, you received an NtD on your car on 15th May. You appealed as keeper on or no later than 9th June. What date did you receive your appeal rejection? What is the date on theNtK they sent you? Is the new NtK PoFA compliant.
Thousands are able to figure out how to post images in here using imgur.com (https://imgur.com), please follow the advice in the Read Me thread (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/) on how to do this.
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You're asking us for advice on something we've not yet seen, you really need to read the READ THIS FIRST guide to adding images.
If it's a notice to keeper there's little point in waiting until day 26, but once we see the notice we can advise.
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yes i went to the ceo office, and the trust, they did not respond. Only pals got back to me, and told me they couldnt cancel it. Ive already appealed once, which they rejected as they said i had to tell them who the driver was. Which i dont believe is true. the pcn ive now had in the post, i assume i appeal again on day 26?
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There is a 'Modify' (edit) button on every post you make saving you from doing that next time.....
So you don't need to make successive new posts in quick succession....
Did you go to the CEO's office, mention the NHS parking guidance?
Please read the 'READ THIS FIRST' sticky at the top of this forum, it tells you how to post images and the limitations.
Of course you don't 'have' to appeal, but it's sensible to and then use POPLA.
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If you read the following thread there's a guide to using Imgur to add photos: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
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i am still unable to upload anything, it sayes contact adminstrator
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hiya, what do i do? do i have to appeal again on day 26?
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hi rookie, i emailed 3 -4 times, and did try to state a good case, but they would not budge. what do i do now, ive received this letter in the post, its asking me to appeal again, do i do that?
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There is a 'Modify' (edit) button on every post you make saving you from doing that next time.....
'Could not' or 'would not'....they like to twist the truth to make themselves look less liable, you have to be pushy.
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yes i am the registered keeper. the ceo of the trust and the pals hopsital , were friendly but did not help, just told me to appeal it, they could not cancel the pcn from there end.
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ive tried attaching the photos, but it sayes upload folder full please contact admin?
ive reduced the size of them to very small and still saying the same thing
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Hi, sorry ive been away, ok so here is the original pcn i received on the 15th may, it was on my windscreen.
i am pregnant and was attending a scan, there is no sign where the driver parked, the sign is on the other side of the road much further up. there were cars parked where the driver had parked, and it was a kind lady who reversed and the driver go into that space. i couldnt believe i had received a fine when i returned.
i appealed to the hospital and the trust, they agreed it was unfair and to appeal it, they said they couldnt do anything themselves but they would bring up this issue of parking in there future meetings.
i then sent an appeal, not naming myself as the driver,but as the registered keeper and had a rejection email, telling me that i couldnt appeal unless i told them who the driver was. I checked back here, and was told to ignore it and that was standard email. I then yesterday received this letter ( image 3132 and 3133) in the post it has an image of my car and the sign, though this sign is not where my car is parked, the sign is on the otherside of the road, further up. Its telling me to appeal again, and then i can get a popla number. do i appeal again, the same way, wait till day 26?
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This post made me look yesterday and IMO PoFA provides only that:
7.(5)In sub-paragraph (2)(d) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the driver about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the driver to independent adjudication or arbitration.
My emphasis.
So, there is no legal requirement for a NTD to offer any procedure for dealing with representations from anyone other than the driver.
Which means that any additional requirement can only be imposed by a CoP or the creditor themselves. But we cannot see the notice and therefore have no idea which code applies. In any event, s23 of the BPA CoP refers to 'communication from the motorist'. I read this whole section in detail and could not find any stand-alone and clear requirement for a NTD to provide for representations from the keeper.
But if the notice does so, then arguably they've imposed this condition upon themselves. In this respect 7(5) of PoFA is clear as posted above i.e. 'procedures offered by the creditor'. The minimum levels are those set out in PoFA and their CoP but a creditor may offer more.
Perhaps they have in this case?
OP, will you please post both sides of the NTD suitably redacted.
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@TheRookie, 'If you appealed online they will send the rejection with POPLA code via email..'
Why would the operator send a POPLA code in response to a disregarded appeal from the keeper to a Notice to Driver thereby denying themselves the opportunity to hold the keeper liable which is predicated on issuing a NTK?
The keeper has had the operator's reply i.e. 'Good Morning...', why do we think anything more would follow?
Because they do..... plus the CoP requires them to respond to 'appeals' by my reading and doesn't say anywhere they can ignore an appeal from a keeper in response to an NtD, can you state the para in section 23?
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That's fine. OP, you need to look out for a PCN Notice to Keeper through the post. If they also issue a POPLA code* beforehand, then also come back here.
* POPLA has been mentioned but as there isn't a NTD in view then anyone who didn't see this posted by the OP before it was removed won't know the creditor and whether it's POPLA or IAS.
Do we know who the registered keeper is(I know the OP appealed as such but I'm unclear as to whether they know what's what in this regard)?
OP, are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details current?
If so, then pl amend your posts and change all references to 'I' to 'the driver' otherwise this cunning plan could unravel.
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I don't think it matters. As long as no NtK is issued, whether they issue a POPLA code or not, the OP has a valid defence against any claim should one be issued. If they are reminded after 56 days that they have not yet issued an NtK, then any NtK they do issue cannot be PoFA compliant and therefore they cannot hold the keeper liable.
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@TheRookie, 'If you appealed online they will send the rejection with POPLA code via email..'
Why would the operator send a POPLA code in response to a disregarded appeal from the keeper to a Notice to Driver thereby denying themselves the opportunity to hold the keeper liable which is predicated on issuing a NTK?
The keeper has had the operator's reply i.e. 'Good Morning...', why do we think anything more would follow?
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OP, please answer the question about what happened when you asked PALS to cancel the PCN? What response did you get from the CEO of the NHS Trust?
You don’t respond to that fishing exercise from them. Not a peep from you to them.
You are stringing them along and waiting for them to send you a POPLA code. When you get the POPLA code, you do not respond until the 32nd from the validity of the code. It will say that the code is only valid for 28 days but it is actually valid for 33 days.
By that time, it will hopefully be 56 days after the date of the event and they will have failed to send an NtK which means it is not PoFA compliant and failing to send an NtK means that the known keeper cannot be liable. Only the unknown driver. A POPLA win.
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That's correct.
If you appealed online they will send the rejection with POPLA code via email (not post) and this has a habit of going in spam folders (which is, of course, convenient for them - I'm sure it's deliberate) so you MUST check the spam folder daily.
You still haven't told us what happened when you contacted the hospital PALS so I presume that was a CBA on your part?
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thanks, so i just wait for the popla code is that right. thanks
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There is a 'modify' button so you don't have to multiple post.
Ignore, they want the RK to name the driver, standard response.
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no ive not had anything in the post, just this windscreen pcn. i did appeal to the hospital and the trust, they told me they understood and to appeal and apologised
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hiya, i sent this as you said yesterday online, but i had this back today? I was told to mark as the registered keeper not driver, and now they have sent this? do i resend the appeal
Good Morning
Thank you for your recent parking appeal in which you have identified yourself as the registered keeper of the vehicle and not the driver.
Please note that the person who was driving the vehicle is liable for the parking charge. Please advise them that they will need to view the account online/ email appeals@paymypcn.net and submit their own appeal within the next 14 days as your correspondence/appeal has now been removed and deleted.
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Why have you left it so late to query this? Your appeal should be with them today so posting it is obviously too late.
The photo of your PCN was removed because you left too much personal information visible but you haven’t bothered to show us a redacted version. That will have information on how to appeal online.
If you don’t help us, we can’t help you.
The process has been explained. The reason for delaying the appeal has been explained. If you had any questions about it, why have you left it to the very last minute?
Any communication is always best by email as this is fully traceable. The postal service is too unreliable.
Show us a redacted copy of the PCN and please confirm that you have not received an NtK in the post. Is your V5C logbook up to date with your current address?
What happened when you went to the PALS about this? Did you get a response from the NHS Trust CEO?
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We can't see the NtD so don't know their 'appeal' arrangements or timings.
I'm certain that bp will be along, but this was posted earlier:
Plan B, will be to wait until 9th of June (25 days after the NtD) and appeal, as the keeper, with the following, verbatim:
If you post then it would not be presumed delivered before Tues.11th, which is not 9th.
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Is it ok to appeal this pcn online, it askes for my address and details, it sayes they will email me. is it better to send in the post?
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thankyou i appreciate the help sincerly
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You may want to redact the PCN number from the image you have provided as, together with your VRM, I was able to log into the P24 website and I could, had I been so inclined, to make your life very difficult.
As this is a Notice to Driver (NtD) from a BPA member, you should follow this advice:
Plan A: Have you gone to the hospital PALS and asked them to get this cancelled? You should also email the NHS Trust CEO and ask for their intervention in this matter.
Plan B, will be to wait until 9th of June (25 days after the NtD) and appeal, as the keeper, with the following, verbatim:
Re PCN number:
I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.
If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.
The reason for delaying the appeal is to tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NtK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NtK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NtK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA. Don't forget this tactic, and use it at POPLA stage: having appealed on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NtK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NtK'.
You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NtK at all in that time, and you will win as long as you make the missing NtK clear to POPLA.
Plan C is the POPLA appeal described above.
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i went to the hospital 2 days ago for a pregnancy scan, the hospital has 0 spaces and you are told to get there early or they will not see you. I went around and around looking for a space, then a lady said she was leaving and she reversed out what i thought was a space, another car was parked in front. and i pulled in the space the lady had reversed out from. I looked around, there was a sign on the other side of the road, saying no parking, but it clearly was for that side of the road. there were NO ROAD signs saying no parking where i parked. there were some very very faded yellow lines, but they were barely visible.
When i returned to my car there was a pcn on the windscreen i was livid.
can someone help me appeal.