Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bigred247 on May 17, 2024, 10:54:20 am
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@H C Andersen
Thank you for the explanation :)
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Their explanation regarding bus lanes ties in with my point in an earlier post about mitigating losses in that as an Enforcement Notice does not prima facie offer a discount but is for the full penalty then they see their actions in paying the discounted charge as being rational and at least cost to their customer.
However, I think they've got themselves mixed up as between private and public PCNs because the latter need only the following to be established and produced in evidence in support of reps to the effect that the registered keeper is a hire company:
4(d)the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and
(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement, and
(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging their liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any relevant road traffic contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;
(7) Where a recipient relies on the ground specified in paragraph (4)(d), their representations must state the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was hired at the material time.
whereas for a private PCN, the hurdles are greater:
(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.
Note 'copy of the hire agreement'.
In practice, however, these companies accept proof less than a copy of the full hire agreement.
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Any thoughts?
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This is the content of the 'letter of authority' they supplied. It was on letter headed paper with their logo, address etc.
06/06/2024
Registration: VO23UCC
Dear Sir/Madam,
Arval UK Limited is a vehicle leasing company and the registered keeper
of the above vehicle, a HYUNDAI SANTA FE ESTATE (2021). Please be
advised that we, the registered keepers of this vehicle, grant permission
for you to correspond directly with Xxxxx Xxxxxx on ANY FINES so that
they may make representations. Our customers address is
121 Some Avenue
Some City
RM7 123
Lease Dates 12-JUN-2023 to 11-JUN-2026
Please take this letter as authorisation. If you require anything else,
please contact us at the address on the top right of this letter and/or at
fines.team@arval.co.uk.
Yours faithfully,
Xxxxx Xxxxxxx
Fines Team
Arval (UK) Ltd
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Hyundai have since replied with the following:
Good afternoon,
Thank you for your email.
Your policy is set that wherever we can, we will transfer the liability of fines to yourself to pay or appeal as you wish.
In the instance of your bus lane penalty, councils will not reissue these fines at the reduced amount originally offered, only the escalated amount. If we requested a transfer for these we would be passing escalated costs to our customers so these are paid at the lowest rate and rebilled. Some authorities will also not accept a transfer request from ourselves without a copy of your hire agreement; as this is a document containing sensitive data such as your banking information it is protected under data protection and we cannot provide this to third parties. As Hyundai Contract Hire are the registered keepers of the vehicle costs can be legally reclaimed from ourselves; fines are therefore paid at the lowest rate.
Wherever we have had to make payment on a fine, we are happy to assist with appealing if we are provided with sufficient grounds and evidence which can be submitted to authorities.
I have attached a letter of authority which will allow you to make an appeal directly if you wish.
Kind Regards,
Xxxxxx
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I wrote the below email to the folks that manage the fines:
Dear Hyundai Customer Service,
RE: Request for Handling Future Penalty Charge Notices and Letter of Authority
I hope this message finds you well.
I am writing to seek your assistance regarding the handling of penalty charge notices (PCNs) related to my leased vehicle. Recently, I received a penalty notice for a bus lane violation which was directly paid by the leasing company. This has raised some concerns for me, and I would like to explore potential measures to better manage such situations in the future.
In light of the recent incident, I kindly request that Hyundai consider the following:
1. Non-Payment of Future Penalties: Please refrain from automatically paying any future PCNs, including but not limited to bus lane penalties, on my behalf. Instead, I would appreciate it if you could notify me immediately upon receiving any such notices.
2. Letter of Authority for Appeals: I would also like to request a letter of authority from Hyundai. This letter would authorize me to appeal any PCNs directly on your behalf, thus allowing me to manage the appeals process personally.
I understand that Hyundai manages numerous leasing agreements, and such requests might be uncommon. However, given the recurring nature of PCNs and my intention to handle them proactively, your cooperation in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Please let me know if there are any forms or additional information required to facilitate these changes. I am more than willing to comply with any necessary procedures to ensure that this arrangement is formalized.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your positive response and continued support.
Best regards,
xxxx xxxxxxx
Customer Account Number: xxxxx
Vehicle Reg: VO23UCC
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I don't have the appetite to fight the leasing company but are there provisions I can take to avoid a similar scenario in future? Have they likely acted in this way because it was a bus lane incident?
That's why they do this, they know they can just recharge the penalty to their customers and nobody will make a fuss.
So is it worth a punt reaching out to Arval and seeking approval to make representations?
You could ask them to not pay any further bus lane penalties and that they give you a letter of authority allowing them to appeal the penalty on their behalf. The problem is you can't make them agree, and even if they do and then they pay the penalty anyway, you have no recourse if you don't want to have an argument with them. They probably have thousands of people who just cough up the money so I have no doubt that they think that what they're doing is right, until a county court judge tells them that they're wrong that won't change.
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How can I determine whether I have lost the right to contest in this case?
You never had the right.
It is the registered keeper that has that right. You can ask Arval nicely for authorisation to make representation on their behalf.
If they do you make a representation.
Of course the authority have no obligation to consider it in any way since it has been paid and case closed.
There was a similar case recently, I think @cp8759 offered to act as a Mackenzie friend should a contractual dispute be raised.
I didn't believe it was possible for a hire company to appeal a bus lane enforcement notice on the grounds of being a hire company, but in any case the enforcement notice shouldn't happen.
So is it worth a punt reaching out to Arval and seeking approval to make representations?
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Let's break this down.
The issue relates to contract law, not statute i.e. LLA 2003.
So, what would be your losses? Your contract states that Arval charge a non-refundable sum just to process a penalty. So that's lost.
So, you'd be arguing that your loss would be what, the penalty which they paid?
IMO, even assuming you had a cat in hell's chance anyway, you've not seen the video and have no idea whether you could have successfully resisted the council's claim to a penalty charge anyway which IMO is a pre-requisite hurdle for you to negotiate.
So is the advice here to take it on the chin and move on?
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@bigred247 is the penalty was paid without your consent then the lease company is in breach of various provisions of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and the case can be fought on that basis (against the lease company, not against the council).
Whether you are willing to fight that fight is another matter, to date we have not come across anyone willing to take on their leasing company.
I don't have the appetite to fight the leasing company but are there provisions I can take to avoid a similar scenario in future? Have they likely acted in this way because it was a bus lane incident?
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Let's break this down.
The issue relates to contract law, not statute i.e. LLA 2003.
So, what would be your losses? Your contract states that Arval charge a non-refundable sum just to process a penalty. So that's lost.
So, you'd be arguing that your loss would be what, the penalty which they paid?
IMO, even assuming you had a cat in hell's chance anyway, you've not seen the video and have no idea whether you could have successfully resisted the council's claim to a penalty charge anyway which IMO is a pre-requisite hurdle for you to negotiate.
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@bigred247 is the penalty was paid without your consent then the lease company is in breach of various provisions of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and the case can be fought on that basis (against the lease company, not against the council).
Whether you are willing to fight that fight is another matter, to date we have not come across anyone willing to take on their leasing company.
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How can I determine whether I have lost the right to contest in this case?
You never had the right.
It is the registered keeper that has that right. You can ask arval nicely for authorisation to make representation on their behalf.
If they do you make a representation.
Of course the authority have no obligation to consider it in any way since it has been paid and case closed.
There was a similar case recently, I think @cp8759 offered to act as a Mackenzie friend should a contractual dispute be raised.
I didn't believe it was possible for a hire company to appeal a bus lane enforcement notice on the grounds of being a hire company, but in any case the enforcement notice shouldn't happen.
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@H C Andersen
I just came across this thread for a similar contravention but still reading through it.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-whipps-cross-road-e11-bus-lane-contravention/
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Standing aside from your contractual issue with Arvalfor a moment, why do you think that you could successfully appeal against the PCN?
Could this be challenged based on de minimis? I was switching to the left lane to exit at the roundabout after dropping my son off at school, but began the manoeuvre a bit early it seems.
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Standing aside from your contractual issue with Arvalfor a moment, why do you think that you could successfully appeal against the PCN?
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I didn't think a London Bus Lane PCN could be transferred.
Whether or not that clause allows them to simply pay and the hirer lose the right to make a 3rd party representation would be enforceable is a different matter.
How can I determine whether I have lost the right to contest in this case?
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OP, pl read the back of the PCN. It correctly states that formal reps, one of whose grounds is that the vehicle was on hire, may only be made against the next notice, the Enforcement Notice.
See Bus Lane enforcement process here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process
I've deliberately linked you to this page rather than the Bus Lane page itself to illustrate how many contravention types there are in London and their corresponding enforcement processes.
So, the enforcement letter is only sent if the PCN has not been settled? Does this mean I can no longer make a challenge?
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I would like to see all the paperwork.
@Hippocrates, I've shared the contract on google drive for your reference.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QW3_m7NUnQ0vxZm-NDScJdOAmW7P_M_q/view?usp=sharing
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OP, pl read the back of the PCN. It correctly states that formal reps, one of whose grounds is that the vehicle was on hire, may only be made against the next notice, the Enforcement Notice.
See Bus Lane enforcement process here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process
I've deliberately linked you to this page rather than the Bus Lane page itself to illustrate how many contravention types there are in London and their corresponding enforcement processes.
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I would like to see all the paperwork.
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I didn't think a London Bus Lane PCN could be transferred.
Whether or not that clause allows them to simply pay and the hirer lose the right to make a 3rd party representation would be enforceable is a different matter.
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This is what i found in relation to the fines in the agreement:
Key Information
Current Charges (including VAT where appropriate)
Administration Fee for processing Fines or Penalties: £15 (clause 4(a)(viii) - Your Obligations)
(viii) pay all fees, fines (including speeding, parking and traffic congestion charges), penalties and other sums and meet all liabilities arising from Your possession and/or use of the Vehicle. We will charge You an Administration Fee for processing Fines or Penalties of £15 (inc. VAT) for each demand which is sent to Us. We may pay any fees, fines and penalties payable by You that We receive and recharge these to You together with the Administration Fee. If the fees, fines or penalties are later successfully challenged, You agree to repay Us any sums We have paid and You agree the Administration Fee will not be refunded. For a list of items under this clause 4(a)(viii) which We have to pay and will recharge You, please see or request Our Frequently Asked Questions; and
(ix) pay to Us the Cherished Plate Fee of £24 (inc. VAT) if You want to allocate a cherished plate to the Vehicle. You will also pay any DVLA charges in relation to the allocation of a cherished plate.
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What are the terms and conditions regarding PCNs in your lease agreement?
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Hi folks,
I just received an email from my car leasing company informing me they paid for a PCN against my leased vehicle. They did not inform me beforehand, thus not allowing me to challenge it. Previously, they supplied my details to the council and a new fine was issued to me directly which was challenged successfully.
1. Can this PCN still be challenged and how?
2. Any best practices to avoid a repeat? Should I contact the lease company, requesting they not pay fines and instead supply my details to the council in future (this doesn't discount human error)?
You can find the PCN here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ySoRRIBp28cqPldawX3d9sJm8K6cI6J4/view?usp=sharing
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.