Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: P.Parker on July 13, 2023, 01:54:03 pm

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 07:33:53 pm

It can take up to 2 - 3 months to get a response from TFL. Just check the TFL website once every couple of weeks to see if there's an update, if you can see that a Notice of Rejection has been issued you can phone TFL and ask them to email a copy (we know postal delays are still pretty bad in some areas).

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 24, 2023, 12:40:26 pm

Submitted online.

What happens next? How long do they typically take to respond with a decision?

Can I assume the hold is extended until I receive a response? It's now the 24th of July. my case was on hold for another week ,until the 1st August (presumably extended when I called again on 17th July to say I hadn't yet received the video). Does that mean I will still have a week from when I receive their decision to consider whether to appeal?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Status history
24 July 2023 Email dispatched to: xxxxxxx@gmail.com Subj Representation receipted
N/A

24 July 2023 On Hold: SUS26 - Representation Received
N/A

17 July 2023 On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (01/08/2023)
N/A

12 July 2023 On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (27/07/2023)
N/A

01 July 2023 PCN Batched
N/A

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 24, 2023, 12:04:33 pm

Quote from: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 12:08:23 am

I'd be tempted to send something much simpler:

Dear Transport for London,

I did not enter any box junction at 3:29 pm, nor did I come to a halt at 3:29 pm. All that can be established from the video is that I exited a box junction at 3:29 pm, so the allegation stated on the PCN did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

I like this. I'll submit it and cross my fingers.

I'll let you know how I get on.

My thanks to all those who contributed suggestions or critiques.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 12:08:23 am

I'd be tempted to send something much simpler:

Dear Transport for London,

I did not enter any box junction at 3:29 pm, nor did I come to a halt at 3:29 pm. All that can be established from the video is that I exited a box junction at 3:29 pm, so the allegation stated on the PCN did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 23, 2023, 09:52:51 am

Thanks. I agree, though I think you're referring to my earlier post. I don't agree that what the road does ahead is relevant.

In this draft submission I've scrapped that argument to focus instead on the argument that the actions of another road user caused a sudden stoppage when I was inside the box, trapping me half inside the box through no fault of my own. My inspiration came from a paragraph from this page https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/moving-traffic-contraventions/contraventions-for-moving-traffic/contravention-code-31/

Specific grounds of appeal for this contravention

1.) It is important to remember that this specific contravention is not that of causing an obstruction or blocking the yellow box, it is quite simply “entering a box junction when your exit is not clear”. It is possible to stop within a yellow box without committing an offence. For example if at the time you entered the box the exit was clear but then a lorry cut in front of you and stopped, forcing you to stop in the yellow box. In fact the independent adjudicator has upheld appeals against Tfl and other councils on this point. In one case transport for London said the vehicle was obstructing the box but because that is not part of the defined contravention and they did not produce evidence of the vehicle actually entering the box when its exit was not clear the appeal against them was upheld

I suspect that argument alone is still not sufficient. The error in the time of the offence, pointed out by MrChips, seems to be a much stronger argument. It may seem to be only a small error but consider the distance a car can travel in just a few seconds. The offence, if one was committed, had to have occurred at least 20 seconds earlier, at 15:28:40. The law refers to a specific moment, ie, at the time of entering the box. The video shows that I was clearly not committing any offence at the time stated on the PCN. At 15:28:52 I was forced to stop suddenly at the far end of the box - that is not an offence. At 15:29:00 I exited the box.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: lexy on July 23, 2023, 04:57:46 am

The “my exit was clear because I could have switched lanes” argument isn’t great here. Immediately after the box, the two lanes split off and go in two different directions.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 22, 2023, 10:01:38 pm

Here's my draft submission. Please advise if you think of any other grounds. Thanks
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I entered the box from the right lane at 15:28:40, confident that the way ahead was clear, As I began to move to the left lane I had a sight line of the left lane flowing easily around the corner ahead, where the A3 rounds a bend and leaves the South Circular to continue straight. No sooner had I moved into the left lane than a car in the right lane ahead of me made a sudden lane switch, perhaps upon realising they were in the wrong lane. The sudden move caused the security truck ahead of me to perform an emergency stop to avoid an accident. The after-effects of the emergency stop can be seen in the video as it causes the security truck to rock back and forth several times, following its suspension being heavily compressed during sudden hard braking. The car behind this truck was also forced to make a sudden stop, as was I, causing me to become briefly stuck, halfway inside the left side of the box.

When entering the box, I very reasonably anticipated my exit ahead would be clear. Reasonable anticipation of the behaviour of other road users is a fundamental pillar of safe motoring, a lesson drummed into every learner driver, yet we all know that no matter how carefully one drives, and however reasonably one anticipates the behaviour of other road users, there is always a risk that another road user will do something sudden, dangerous and entirely unexpected, with little or no regard for their fellow road users.

I contend that there was no contravention, as when I entered the box I had every reason to expect my exit from the box to be clear of any obstacle. I cannot be held responsible for the behaviour of other road users.

I further contend that the contravention alleged in the PCN could not have occurred at the time alleged in the PCN. According to the time-stamped video evidence captured by TFL, I was leaving the box at 15:29, not entering it, as the PCN alleges.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 22, 2023, 02:09:27 am

Thanks all. Will draft something on that, but I have to attend a wedding today (Sat)

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: cp8759 on July 22, 2023, 01:14:05 am

Quote from: P.Parker on July 21, 2023, 08:21:19 pm

Am I clutching at semantic straws? If you think that defence won't wash please suggest anything else. I'm all ears, or all eyes, if you prefer.

Yes, I don't see any adjudicator buying that argument.

Quote from: MrChips on July 21, 2023, 09:58:56 pm

I'm just wondering though... the offence occurs at the point of entry which was at 1528.  The PCN says the offence occurs at 1529.

Contravention as stated on PCN didn't occur?

That's a good point, it's certainly arguable but not a sure thing, as it could go either way.

P.Parker, try drafting a representation based on this suggestion and put it on here for review.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: MrChips on July 21, 2023, 09:58:56 pm

In my opinion, the video shows a contravention.  Your vehicle enters the box junction in such a way that it has to stop within due to presence of stationary vehicles.

I'm just wondering though... the offence occurs at the point of entry which was at 1528.  The PCN says the offence occurs at 1529.

Contravention as stated on PCN didn't occur?

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 21, 2023, 08:21:19 pm

Thanks. The video arrived today (21st July). So ten days for the PCN and nine for the video. Fortunately my old G4 Mac Powerbook still fires up, so I could use the DVD drive to transfer the file to a USB stick. TFL seem to be stuck in the past. I don't know why they can't just host these videos on a server, accessible through a reference code.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/66yd3dtvzcal9rb/2525804.mkv?dl=0

Unfortunately the video supplied is a rather long length of footage. For my cameo, I enter stage left at 15:28:36.0 and exit stage right at about 15:29:12.0. My car is the sunset orange late model BMW 3 series sedan - it looks almost red in the video.

The video shows me changing lanes once inside the box but, as I understand it, the contravention relates to the moment I enter the box. To quote the Highway Code: "You must not enter a Yellow Box Junction unless your exit is clear or if you are turning right but need to wait in the box because of oncoming, moving traffic".

It seems by the word of the law that a Code 31 contravention must occurr at the moment one enters a box. I could argue that the lane I was (still) in as I entered the box - the right lane - was sufficiently clear to exit the box without stopping. There was a VW van in front, but the road was completely clear in front of that vehicle and the Mercedes van that was behind me in the right lane was also able to pass through the box without stopping. Had I continued in that right lane I would have cleared the box. because I chose to change lanes inside the box, I ended up stuck and forced to stop in the box. That seems to be another matter altogether than the contravention I've been charged with.

Am I clutching at semantic straws? If you think that defence won't wash please suggest anything else. I'm all ears, or all eyes, if you prefer.

The reason I changed lanes there was because the A3 branches left at that point. I took that opportunity to change lanes without having to squeeze in after the box. In fact, it was traffic squeezing in from the right lane that stopped the left lane and, ultimately, landed me stuck in the box.

All ideas and suggestions are welcome. I'd like very much to fight this but I'm not holding a lot of hope.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: cp8759 on July 20, 2023, 10:31:25 pm

If you haven't got the video by 31 July, just put in a one line representation saying the contravention did not occur.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 20, 2023, 03:27:21 pm

These are the only photos TFL have provided online. They don't provide any conclusive evidence to support the charge.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f1u5szlm2dum123/First%20shot%20in%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/417s4ughmj3gh45/2nd%20shot%20in%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pw2bkq5xe3a6zw2/Some%20way%20north%20of%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0

I think it's clear why I need to see the video evidence.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 20, 2023, 03:07:23 pm

I've not received the video from TFL yet and it's been 8 days. The status online shows it's on hold until 1st August. I called TFL and told the operator the video hadn't arrived. I expressed my concern that it might not arrive within 14 days - given the PCN only arrived 10 days after the notice date.

The phone operator asked me why I needed the video anyway as it was obviously my car in the photo. He suggested I should just pay the fine if I was worried. I told him I wanted the video as there is no evidence in the photos to suggest I broke any laws. There are two photos where a car is partially inside a box but that car is mostly hidden behind a van. The only photo where a car has a visible registration plate is from further up the road, outside of the box.

I asked the operator how long I should wait for the video to arrive, before calling to have the hold period extended. He suggested I call back in a week's time. I'll give it until next Tuesday 25th July.

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 16, 2023, 03:41:10 pm

Thanks, I've set a reminder

Title: Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: cp8759 on July 13, 2023, 11:27:59 pm

If you haven't received the video in a week call TFL to chase it up.

It's impossible for us to give any advice on a yellow box case without seeing the video.

Title: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill Fire Station
Post by: P.Parker on July 13, 2023, 01:54:03 pm

Hi

I originally posted this on Pepipoo. I would like to know what grounds I might have to appeal a PCN I received on 11th July 2023 dated 1st July 2023 by post. The postal delay afforded me only a few days to respond.

Yesterday I called TFL and asked for a copy of the video evidence. The lady I spoke to asked me what the circumstances were. I gave a brief answer along the lines of what I've written below, but I clearly stated that I would need to see the video evidence for better recollection. I didn't want the discussion to necessarily form a pillar of my clallenge.

Photos:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejnvtlyvylhlfxg/IMG_4800.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8evpt3sjlstuxbw/IMG_4801.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gsotdgxawc3jrqo/P...Viewer.jpg?dl=0

Location https://goo.gl/maps/kXBkL4hQ5jurzJQ96.

I originally intended to wait for the box to clear but the driver behind was impatient and tooted me to get moving. I've never driven this road before so I proceeded using best judegement. I was almost across the box when the traffic in front stopped suddenly. Subsequently I had to stop in the box. Had I not been in so close to the car in front due the unexpected stop or if I'd known there was a camera, I might have quickly moved into the right lane, which was clear.

The photos online show what I presume to be my car squeezed in behind the one on front. The registration mark is not visible until well after I've left the box. The photo of my registration appears to taken further up the road at the A3 road marking. As I understand it, the law states that "You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear". The exit road on my was clear on the right when I entered the box, I just didn't think to switch to that lane when the traffic stopped. I felt I was clear of the firestation access and I guess, on an unfamiliar road and faced with a split second decision, I took what I preceived as the safe option and stopped half inside the box, rather than changing to the clear right hand lane while inside the box.

I've not yet been able to view the video. I was a bit miffed at only having a few days to challenge the PCN, but the lady I spoke to at TFL told me I've been granted a 14 day extension so I can receive and view the video evidence before deciding whether to make a challenge.

I can afford the fine but I'd rather not pay if I've committed no offence (under the law) or the PCN doesn't meet the legal requirements to enforce it.

Please advise. Any help will be greatly appreciated.