Free Traffic Legal Advice
General discussion => The Flame Pit => Topic started by: KGR54 on May 16, 2024, 04:16:19 pm
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This has deja vu connotations for me. So OP, let me set out my thought processes at that time and the action which IMO you should take.
And my case was my wife v Chief Constable of the Sussex Constabulary and it was a home win!
I found out from the traffic wardens that the police had instructed a contractor to take my car away because it has been hit by anothger vehicle and it is severely damaged.
The police ordered the company to remove my vehicle without my agreement by a contractor that is charging an extortionate amount.
At present, the attending police officer is refusing to provide me with the licence number of the vehicle that hit mine, citing the GDPR. The vehicle that hit mine was left abandoned and he is waiting to hear from the registered keeper if the vehicle was stolen,
Traffic warden? Even worse, traffic warden said!!
OP, can we try and put some concrete evidence behind the above pl.
What written communications have you had with the police?
What power did they say they used in order to, as you say, remove your car?
You must post written correspondence pl. Nothing else will do.
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Therefore as the police seem to know who was driving the car that hit his car, he can claim for the loss of his car and other expenses from the other party. surely the police are obliged to give those details if they are known.
As I've said above, the easiest way to get the details is to report the incident as a hit and run. Yes you could look at all sorts of legal routes to get the information, but filling in the relevant form on the force website will put this in the intray of someone who is going to want to get details of insurance companies exchanged so the report can be closed.
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Therefore as the police seem to know who was driving the car that hit his car, he can claim for the loss of his car and other expenses from the other party. surely the police are obliged to give those details if they are known.
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I was about to suggest simply reporting the matter to your insurance company and let them deal with it 100%.
As the OP has TP cover only, the only thing the insurer is likely to do is pass the details on to a claims management company.
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I was about to suggest simply reporting the matter to your insurance company and let them deal with it 100%. It's what you pay insurance for. They will find out through the MIB who insures the other car that hit yours. Let them do the legwork. Stop worrying about it. They will need to know about it, I don't recall seeing any mention of your insurance above, even if you are third party only your car has been damaged whilst parked and presumably unattended so you can't be at fault. The police will have to release details of the other vehicle to the insurers.
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As the O/P cannot recover his personal effects unless he pays the charges
We don't know that though, we've been told he can recover his personal effects if he attends with the V5C, and the V5C is in the car. It might be that he can get his personal effect if he turns up with the key and the towing company get the V5C that way. It might also be that there's nothing of value in the car.
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As the O/P cannot recover his personal effects unless he pays the charges, wouldn't he be able to site 'payment made under duress'? if he paid to get his belongings, could he then sue the recovery company on the basis that he had no contract with them and that they were in effect demanding money with menaces?
As far as the Police are concerned, if the damage was such that it cause a further accident or be the cause of injury then I can understand why it had to be removed.
Is the O/P a member of the AA/RAC or other company, which may be able to provide legal assistant. Even though his insurance is TPFT, he may still be able to speak to their legal team.
Best of luck with this.
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Unless the collision was such that the entirety of the exterior of the vehicle was damaged, the undamaged parts would tend to indicate the overall condition of the vehicle prior to the collision.
That said, unless the OP is looking to claim that his car was in exceptional condition for its age, it is not immediately obvious that it would fall to the OP to prove the condition of his vehicle prior to the collision, rather than to the other party's insurer to prove that the value was less than would be expected for that vehicle.
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Would it be prudent for OP to get some photos of the condition of the car now, pending getting the other vehicles reg and claiming through their insurer?
Surely the relevant question is the condition of the car before the accident, rather than after? If the car is now worthless then the current condition hardly matters.
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I was going to respond saying that you should get in touch with your insurers, with the crime ref, and let them deal with the police if they won't tell you the reg, but I think you're on TPO insurance?
If there are any other personal effects you want, why don't you just arrange to attend with the key and photo ID and then they can get the log book and confirm it's really you and you can remove any other personal effects?
As for recovering the car, if the car is now worthless I don't understand why you care?
I would SORN the car & also send a letter to DVLA explaining that you're not longer keeping the car, which is now kept by the towing company at their address so please could you be removed from the DVLA records as the registered keeper.
At that point the car is no longer your problem or your responsibility and the towing company can do whatever they like with it. If they then send you any more demands for money, tell them to take a hike.
Would it be prudent for OP to get some photos of the condition of the car now, pending getting the other vehicles reg and claiming through their insurer?
Otherwise, OP will have no vehicle for the third party insurer to inspect, and I am betting they'll then go "well, we'll give you a fiver".
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cp8759 Many thanks.
I shall follow your suggestion. I needed an objective opinion and yours follows my thinking. I will also put a warning shot across the bow of the towing company that there has been no police suggestion of any offence and that what they do with the car will be at their risk; not that I want the thing again!
I'll update this thread when there is anything interesting to those in a similar dilema and thank you all.
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At present, the attending police officer is refusing to provide me with the licence number of the vehicle that hit mine, citing the GDPR.
That's utter nonsense, your rights to claim against the third party's insurer trump the data subject's personal data rights. I suggest you go onto your police force's website and report it as a hit and run, you're the victim of that and I can't see any reason not to report it as such. Once you're in the system as a victim I suspect the details will be passed to you with no fuss.
You don't need the V5C to declare the vehicle SORN, you can use form V890 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5faeabec8fa8f55de359f6d4/V890-make-a-statutory-off-road-notification.pdf).
If there are any other personal effects you want, why don't you just arrange to attend with the key and photo ID and then they can get the log book and confirm it's really you and you can remove any other personal effects?
As for recovering the car, if the car is now worthless I don't understand why you care?
I would SORN the car & also send a letter to DVLA explaining that you're not longer keeping the car, which is now kept by the towing company at their address so please could you be removed from the DVLA records as the registered keeper.
At that point the car is no longer your problem or your responsibility and the towing company can do whatever they like with it. If they then send you any more demands for money, tell them to take a hike.
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I very much appreciate the advice from everyone. I'm certainly not a follower of FoTL.
My situation is unlikely to be unique but what it comes down to is that one minute my car was fully legal and the next it was in breach of the regulations (I assume construction and use). At that point, did I commit an offence under which the police exercised their right to remove the vehicle?
If I have committed an offence why haven't the police advised me of this, as noted by cp8759?
At present, the attending police officer is refusing to provide me with the licence number of the vehicle that hit mine, citing the GDPR. The vehicle that hit mine was left abandoned and he is waiting to hear from the registered keeper if the vehicle was stolen, TWOC or otherwise. This puts me in limbo as I can't contact the other vehicle's insurer. In addition, the towing company refuse to provide me with their own photographs, also citing the GDPR, so I have no records to present to the other party's insurers when I find out who they are.
In practical terms, the towing company won't let me recover my personal effects unless I attend in person with the log book but the log book is in the car, which they won't open because they don't have the door key. I want the log book so that I can SORN the vehicle or have it removed by a breaker. The towing company have said that they won't release the vehicle unless their charges are paid and the will want a further £75 plus VAT for using their forklift to load the car onto any removal vehicle.
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For now, the costs are down to me.
Based on what?
If the police think they can recover charges under a statutory power, I'd expect them to serve some sort of statutory notice. A private company cannot require payment by simply sending you an invoice and if that's all that's happened, I would ignore it. After all, if you don't pay what are they going to do about it?
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To expand upon what our illustrious, overworked and underappreciated co-admin said, FMOTL is a delusional and dangerous movement that seeks to argue that their consent is required to be bound by what everyone understands to be well known criminal law provisions, etc.
In the instant case, the OP appears to have fallen foul of far less well known quasi-criminal/administrative provisions that effectively punish not only those that have not been convicted of anything, in many cases have done absolutely nothing wrong.
Unlike those who have chosen to cast aspersions at the OP...
As has been explained, there are statutory provisions variously empowering and/or requiring public authorities to seize vehicles and charge for their release. Such powers must be applied proportionately, otherwise they are likely unlawful both under public law in general and through the application of the Human Rights Act.
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Unfortunately, I have no idea what FoTL means.
"Freemen on the Land". It is a movement followed by people who believe, among other things, that they are not bound by statutory laws unless they "consent" or "contract" to them. For example, they believe that they can only be prosecuted for speeding if they have given their consent to be bound by the Road Traffic Act.
My only redress is through the Motor Insurers Bureau or the other vehicle's insurer.
Best to think about it the other way round. Any insurer covering the other vehicle against Third Party risks comes first. The MIB only become involved as a last resort if no cover is in place.
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Unfortunately, I have no idea what FoTL means.
The advice that I have received from an online solicitor is that once the vehicle was damaged it became in breach of the regulations (no longer road worthy) and that the police then had the right to remove it. I don't know whether they should have advised the registered keeper that it needed to be removed beforehand. When the dust settles, I'll make a complaint to the Chief Constable, as advised on the police website.
For now, the costs are down to me.
My only redress is through the Motor Insurers Bureau or the other vehicle's insurer.
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Uhh ohh you are straying into FoTL territory here ... of course the police force will have a contract with a recovery company.
I don’t think he is. The point has fairly and properly been raised and he’s addressing it.
Yes the police have the duty to recover a vehicle under certain circumstances, see Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
And is it not more specifically the Retention and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations?
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Uhh ohh you are straying into FoTL territory here ... of course the police force will have a contract with a recovery company.
Yes the police have the duty to recover a vehicle under certain circumstances, see Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
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I'm still trying to work out how to reply to posts as I'm new to this forum.
Thank you all three responders.
I suspect that the towing company won't have any contract with the police, otherwise, why are they trying to get money from me? Previous experience makes me think that these type of arrangements are on a "mates" basis.
It's true that I have no contract with the towing company but I don't know if there is any statutory power that the police have to tow and destroy a fully legal vehicle and, if so, does this automatically make the registered keeper liable for the associated costs.
I'll try getting a free thirty minute call with a solicitor on this.
Thanks folks
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Surely the towing company is under contract to the police, who should then chase you the rk, who could then chase the MIB for the unknown/uninsured hit-and-run driver.
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@KGR54 you say the car is severely damaged and you have third party cover only. So the key question is whether the car is a write-off?
If it's not worth having it back you might as well forget about it, I don't see how the towing company can enforce any charges against you.
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Is the other vehicle's registered keeper liable for the damage and costs caused by their vehicle?
No, but the driver of that vehicle, or the insurer of that vehicle (if it was even insured) is. But without any details of that vehicle, you're at a bit of a dead-end.
It might be a bit glib to say it, but that's what comprehensive insurance is for :-(
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My car was parked legally on the street in Brighton but when I returned to leave town it was missing. I found out from the traffic wardens that the police had instructed a contractor to take my car away because it has been hit by anothger vehicle and it is severley damaged.
The car is in a private compound and I have received a registered letter telling me that I owe this company £300 for towing charges and I will have to pay them £26 per day until I remove the car. If I don't pay their charges and remove the car within 14 days they will destroy it.
The police ordered the company to remove my vehicle without my agreement by a contractor that is charging an extortionate amount.
I have committed no offence and have only third party insurance. I have no contract with this company. The police can't tell me the details of the vehicle that hit my car as the relevant officer hasn't filled in the paperwork and so I cannot contact that vehicle's insurer.
Am I liable to pay these charges?
Can a third party destroy my car against my wishes?
Is the other vehicle's registered keeper liable for the damage and costs caused by their vehicle?
Please help as soon as possible as this is a current ongoing dilema.