Free Traffic Legal Advice
General discussion => The Flame Pit => Topic started by: estevenin on May 16, 2024, 01:05:52 am
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Fraud, an offence of dishonesty, is usually treated pretty seriously, yes. Bye.
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Let's try and make it a little easier to understand. Imagine that you hold your two licences and commit an offence for which you are disqualified from driving. You provide the court with (say) your Greek licence details. Do you think you can continue driving in the UK, despite a UK court having disqualified you from doing so, because you hold a GB licence which is "clean"?
You seem to be confusing what you are obliged or allowed to do with what you think you might get away with.
I completely agree that if a UK court disqualifies me, I must not drive—no question there. I certainly won't. However, that scenario isn’t what I’m discussing. My hypothetical is just different: Let’s assume a UK driving licence already has 3 penalty points, and then I receive a typical speeding ticket (for instance, another 3 points). Would those points automatically be applied to my UK licence if I provide details from my EU licence instead?
Of course, in theory, the authorities could cross-reference everything and link the two licences. But in practical reality, given the high volume of daily fines, is it really so unreasonable to assume they’d rely solely on the unique licence number and not perform an exhaustive first-name–last-name–date-of-birth check? That’s the core of my question here—not whether I could ignore a disqualification issued by a court.
given the OP was clearly trying to educate everyone as opposed to getting advice. I suggest waiting to see hiw he gets on with his plan and see if he returns to tell us, truthfully (as, by his own admission he tells lies)
I wasn’t trying to “educate” anyone; I was simply making a reasonable assumption about how the police handle fines when provided with a licence number. If you view my reporting the licence as lost—purely so I could hand it over to the Greek authorities and reclaim my rightful EU driving licence—as a grave wrongdoing, then I’ll deal with that consequence if it ever arises.
Either way, I would like to thank everyone for your answers. I appreciate the time you've taken to share your thoughts.
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given the OP was clearly trying to educate everyone as opposed to getting advice. I suggest waiting to see hiw he gets on with his plan and see if he returns to tell us, truthfully (as, by his own admission he tells lies)
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I wonder what the response of the Greek authorities if the situation were reversed & the OP tried to pull the same stunt in Greece.
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I would assume that the penalty points would be loaded onto my Greek licence. For all practical purposes, the system would treat me as a completely separate individual holding an EU licence.
Why do you make those assumptions?
Penalty points are not loaded on to any licence. They are attributed to a driver's driving record.
And so to this:
....but if I do get caught, I plan to use my Greek licence so those points go there, leaving the UK licence at 9 points.
Let's try and make it a little easier to understand. Imagine that you hold your two licences and commit an offence for which you are disqualified from driving. You provide the court with (say) your Greek licence details. Do you think you can continue driving in the UK, despite a UK court having disqualified you from doing so, because you hold a GB licence which is "clean"?
You seem to be confusing what you are obliged or allowed to do with what you think you might get away with.
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Your assumptions are wrong. This can be surmised by the responses received so far, but that is apparently unsatisfactory.
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Clearly you know better than us. You certainly think you do.
Thanks for your response, but how about a reasoned counterargument over a snarky remark? All I’m saying is that, given the volume of fines police handle, it’s reasonable to assume they rely primarily on the driver’s name and licence number, rather than launching a comprehensive detective search for every matching first and last name. If you believe otherwise, I’d be interested to know exactly where you think my reasoning falls short.
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I understand that I’ve technically broken the law by falsely reporting my UK licence as lost, but this was done purely for technical reasons
Oh, well, that’s ok then.
2.Assigning Points to the Licence
Setting aside how I ended up with two perfectly valid licenses, when someone receives a fine, they’re required to provide their name and their driving licence number. While names like Jonh Stewart or John Smith might be common and appear thousands of times, driving licence numbers are unique and serve as the primary identifier. If I provide my Greek driving licence number when fined, I would assume that the penalty points would be loaded onto my Greek licence. For all practical purposes, the system would treat me as a completely separate individual holding an EU licence. I could very well be a tourist with the same name driving in the UK. The EU driving licence has no connection with any NIN or UK passport! And from their end how confident would they be to just arbritrarily charge a UK driving licence with points only from a name match? So in practice I am very confident that they will never be any link between these 2 driving licences. (For the purpose of this conversation we can set aside the ethical side of things ;D )
In the unfortunate scenario that I do something stupid again and end up with a fine I will definitely update you all with the results of my attempt ;D
Clearly you know better than us. You certainly think you do.
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Thank you all for your responses. Let me address this in two parts:
1.How I Ended Up with Two Licences
I understand that I’ve technically broken the law by falsely reporting my UK licence as lost, but this was done purely for technical reasons so I could hand it over to the Greek authorities.
If you are tried for a criminal offence in England or Wales, there are two possible outcomes - guilty or not guilty. "Technically" guilty is not an option.
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Thank you all for your responses. Let me address this in two parts:
1.How I Ended Up with Two Licences
I understand that I’ve technically broken the law by falsely reporting my UK licence as lost, but this was done purely for technical reasons so I could hand it over to the Greek authorities. They informed me that they require the original licence to issue a Greek (EU) licence, regardless of whether the licence is from the UK, the U.S., China, or any other non-EU country. This is just the standard process in Greece for converting third-country licences to EU licences. Importantly, they explicitly stated that they do not send the handed-over licence back to the country of origin. For example, if someone hands over a U.S. licence to get a Greek licence, the U.S. authorities would never be informed, and the same applies to the UK. As the UK is no longer part of the EU, the old rule requiring only one EU licence per person doesn’t apply in this case. Therefore, no notification of invalidation or revocation would be sent from Greece to the UK.
2.Assigning Points to the Licence
Setting aside how I ended up with two perfectly valid licenses, when someone receives a fine, they’re required to provide their name and their driving licence number. While names like Jonh Stewart or John Smith might be common and appear thousands of times, driving licence numbers are unique and serve as the primary identifier. If I provide my Greek driving licence number when fined, I would assume that the penalty points would be loaded onto my Greek licence. For all practical purposes, the system would treat me as a completely separate individual holding an EU licence. I could very well be a tourist with the same name driving in the UK. The EU driving licence has no connection with any NIN or UK passport! And from their end how confident would they be to just arbritrarily charge a UK driving licence with points only from a name match? So in practice I am very confident that they will never be any link between these 2 driving licences. (For the purpose of this conversation we can set aside the ethical side of things ;D )
In the unfortunate scenario that I do something stupid again and end up with a fine I will definitely update you all with the results of my attempt ;D
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The reason you could not obtain a new Greek licence unless you handed over your GB one is that, for driving licence purposes, nothing has changed since Brexit. You can only hold one licence if it is issued by any of the 28 nations (27 EU plus GB). For the same reason you would no have been granted a GB licence if you said you held a Greek one.
It's got nothing to do with the OP but in fact for driving licence purposes everything has changed since Brexit.
There never was any necessity to exchange a UK licence for an EU licence as a UK licence was of course a perfectly valid EU driving licence. Neither the Withdrawal Agreement nor the Trade and Cooperation Agreement make any mention of driving licences. The previous automatic exchange of a UK licence for an EU licence or vice versa is now no longer possible.
I personally know the situation in France where if a Brit now takes up residence then provided their UK driving licence was issued before 31st January 2020 they do not need to exchange it for a French licence until it expires. However if they passed their test after 31st January 2020 then you only have 12 months after they become resident to exchange their UK licence for a French licence. If they miss that window then they cannot exchange & must pass a French driving test to legally drive in which case they will quite legally hold both a valid UK & a French driving licence.
Every EU state now has different rules for licence exchange as all post-Brexit arrangements for driving licences have had to be agreed on a bilateral basis.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-uk-licence-holders-living-in-the-eu
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I don’t see how the points could be applied to my UK driving licence.
You still haven't grasped this.
As southpaw said, penalty points are not applied to your licence. They are applied to your driving record. You can accrue UK points no matter what licence you hold or even if you hold no licence at all.
Importantly, no law is being broken here....
I think the DVLA might see it differently. You declared to them that your GB licence was lost or stolen. That was a false declaration because it wasn't lost. You know exactly where it is (or at least where it was when you handed it over to the Greek authorities).
The reason you could not obtain a new Greek licence unless you handed over your GB one is that, for driving licence purposes, nothing has changed since Brexit. You can only hold one licence if it is issued by any of the 28 nations (27 EU plus GB). For the same reason you would no have been granted a GB licence if you said you held a Greek one.
If I were to use my Greek (EU) driving licence number, I don’t see how the points could be applied to my UK driving licence.
You might get away with that, however, you might not. Since you made a false declaration to the DVLA you need to tread very carefully.
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Thank you for your response! Let me clarify a couple of points:
1. Handing Over My UK Licence in Greece
The Greek authorities required me to hand over a valid driving licence in order to reissue my Greek (EU) licence. Simply requesting a reissue of my original Greek licence wasn’t an option. Since I needed to provide my UK licence to meet their requirements, I reported it as lost in the UK to ensure I could still obtain a replacement here while complying with the Greek process. This was the only way to satisfy their rules. Importantly, no law is being broken here because the EU rule allowing only one driving licence across member states no longer applies in this situation, as the UK is no longer part of the EU.
That is true, but as part of the final (oven-ready?) Brexit deal the existing driving licence arrangements remained unchanged.
That means (AIUI) you had to surrender your UK licence to the Greeks, and you have broken at least one law by falsely reporting it stolen.
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Thank you for your response! Let me clarify a couple of points:
1. Handing Over My UK Licence in Greece
The Greek authorities required me to hand over a valid driving licence in order to reissue my Greek (EU) licence. Simply requesting a reissue of my original Greek licence wasn’t an option. Since I needed to provide my UK licence to meet their requirements, I reported it as lost in the UK to ensure I could still obtain a replacement here while complying with the Greek process. This was the only way to satisfy their rules. Importantly, no law is being broken here because the EU rule allowing only one driving licence across member states no longer applies in this situation, as the UK is no longer part of the EU.
2. Accumulating Points on the UK Licence
When you receive a fine, you are required to provide a driving licence number. If I were to use my Greek (EU) driving licence number, I don’t see how the points could be applied to my UK driving licence. Theoretically, the authorities could check databases for individuals with the same name and date of birth. However, I would assume the primary method of assigning points is by using the driving licence number itself, which is unique to each licence. This means that, practically speaking, the system would treat me as a completely separate person when using my Greek licence.
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Any points would be applied to your UK driver record, so you would still be liable for a ban on reaching 12 points.
How was your UK licence stolen and at the same time handed to the Greek authorities?
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With all that beeing said, is choosing to disclose your foreign licence instead of a UK one, when receiving a speed ticket (without thinking of the reasons why that I mentionned on the first post), an offence, or is that then a grey area ?
I initially obtained my driving licence (car and motorcycle) in Greece. In 2015, I moved to the UK and exchanged my Greek licence for a UK one. At that time, the rule was that the country issuing the new licence had to send the original licence back to the country of origin. That’s exactly what happened, so the Greek online driving licence database showed my Greek licence as revoked (since the UK was in the EU at the time, and you can only hold one EU licence).
Now, in January 2025, I spoke with the public transport office in Greece, and they told me that to get a new Greek (EU) licence, I would have to hand over my UK licence. However, they also said that because the UK is no longer in the EU, they would simply keep the UK licence “in an envelope” rather than sending it back, and thus from what I understand an EU country does not inform in any way, shape, or form for the handed over driving licence so the driving licence remains perfectly valid in the UK.
Back in the UK, I reported my UK licence as lost. This was because in Greece they required me to hand over a driving licence in order to reissue a Greek licence. They were unable to simply reissue my original Greek licence, as they needed to physically receive a valid licence. That’s the reason I reported it as lost, allowing me to provide my UK licence to Greece while still obtaining a replacement in the UK.
So now I ended up with two perfectly valid driving licences—one from the UK and one from Greece (EU). The reason for doing that was My UK licence already has 9 points (all from driving 24 mph in a 20 mph zone—clearly I didn’t learn my lesson :'( ), so I only have one more chance before a ban.
Hopefully, I won’t be posting here again about another speeding ticket, but if I do get caught, I plan to use my Greek licence so those points go there, leaving the UK licence at 9 points. As estevenin mentioned, I’m not sure if this is technically illegal or just a grey area—but that’s the route I’m considering.
I know I am technically gaming the system, and if I do get another speeding ticket, I should pay the consequences. What I want to ask is: would it be technically legal to fill in my Greek driving licence if I get another speeding ticket so I load up that one instead of the UK one?
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As may have already been state, the DVLA make a ghost licence and any points or fines will be put on that ghost licence. UK law can ban holders of foreign licences from driving in the UK. That won't affect their ability to drive in their home country or any other country outside the UK.
Unless there’s a reciprocal agreement.
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As may have already been state, the DVLA make a ghost licence and any points or fines will be put on that ghost licence. UK law can ban holders of foreign licences from driving in the UK. That won't affect their ability to drive in their home country or any other country outside the UK.
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The City of London police would only be guidelines, not what the law actually says. Much like the Highway Code and advice given by the DVLA in a lot of their guidelines, it's what the law actually says that matters.
Indeed. Just haven't found the law on that topic. They had a law on double EU/EEA Licence prior to Brexit, but now I think it is simply a grey area at the moment.
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The City of London police would only be guidelines, not what the law actually says. Much like the Highway Code and advice given by the DVLA in a lot of their guidelines, it's what the law actually says that matters.
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Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback, those are all interesting talks. If I was asked the question, I would declare it. However the insurance that I use usually does not ask for convictions during quote renewals every year (Only for new quotes), and you are not required to disclose it either. So I suppose they would run some sort of a test on your DVLA records to generate that new quote, even though I'm just assuming, hence my question.
That sounds unlikely.
A renewal notice normally asks you whether anything has changed, e.g. my latest one said "It is important that you review your ‘Schedule and Information provided by you’ document to ensure that the data we hold is current and that you inform us of any changes."
I specifically asked them, their email reply was "There is no need to inform us of any conviction as we are able to pull that data automatically from DVLA"
If I ever get a speeding fine in the future, I will try, to get a definitive answer to that question, and update that post accordingly. I will update the insurance by email and that way if they already had the data or not and I'll know if the data is joint to my UK profile or sent to a seperate account. Given that there is no law instructing that it is mandatory to send your UK licence, instead or a foreign one.
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I found this in the city of London police website :
"If you're a foreign national and have been issued with a licence by the DVLA then you should provide the details of the licence issued by the DVLA. If you don't hold a UK licence then you must send us the licence number and country of issue of your non-UK licence."
I note that they use the word "should" but not "must"
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Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback, those are all interesting talks. If I was asked the question, I would declare it. However the insurance that I use usually does not ask for convictions during quote renewals every year (Only for new quotes), and you are not required to disclose it either. So I suppose they would run some sort of a test on your DVLA records to generate that new quote, even though I'm just assuming, hence my question.
That sounds unlikely.
A renewal notice normally asks you whether anything has changed, e.g. my latest one said "It is important that you review your ‘Schedule and Information provided by you’ document to ensure that the data we hold is current and that you inform us of any changes."
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Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback, those are all interesting talks. If I was asked the question, I would declare it. However the insurance that I use usually does not ask for convictions during quote renewals every year (Only for new quotes), and you are not required to disclose it either. So I suppose they would run some sort of a test on your DVLA records to generate that new quote, even though I'm just assuming, hence my question.
However, if it's attached to the driver and they only use the name and DOB, then yes, I assume that would probably get attached to that UK licence.
You would need to pass your driving test in both the UK & EU state to have two driving licences. Do you actually have two driving licences or is this just a hypothetical question?
Yes correct. So I passed my driving test in France many years ago, and exchanged that licence again many years ago, for a full UK on, when I became resident.
I recently passed my bike licence in France, so they issued me a new driving licence over there. It also contained the car licence, as I had it on their records. So I have a UK (car) driving licence, and now a FR (car / bike) driving licence.
I strached my head for a while with that but it seems to be perfectly legal and acceptable, despite consultations a while back before Brexit, it obviously didn't go through now thay Brexit went ahead.
I'v also read that you are required to exchange your foreign licence if you are à resident (which I did), but nothing forces you to use that licence, over a foreign one.
Even in the hypothetical case I am stopped by the police, if I decide to show the FR licence instead of the UK, they will end up saying that it should be exchanged, which I did.
At the end, I understand that the law does not plan for a country to issue à driving licence twice, after the first beeing exchanged already...
So I understand that records are attached to the driver. Also that you need to disclose offences, applied to you. And also, that you need to have a UK licence beeing a UK resident...
With all that beeing said, is choosing to disclose your foreign licence instead of a UK one, when receiving a speed ticket (without thinking of the reasons why that I mentionned on the first post), an offence, or is that then a grey area ?
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You would need to pass your driving test in both the UK & EU state to have two driving licences. Do you actually have two driving licences or is this just a hypothetical question?
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Points can't be added to a foreign licence, so the DVLA set up a "ghost" licence record. Doing so would presumably flag up the existence of a UK licence holder with the same name and DOB (and possibly address). If so, the OP's cunning plan would fail.
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Offences are recorded against a driver record, not a licence. See s 44A of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Even if DVLA failed to add it to your driver record, you would know you had been punished for the offence so not declaring it would be fraudulent.
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Offences are recorded against a driver record, not a licence. See s 44A of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
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I imagine the insurer would ask about offences by the person. If it bypasses the question by optionally accepting a UK license doing so would seem to be a fraudulent act to gain a lower premium.
The foreign or EU license would typically be valid for a defined period after becoming resident. If you didn't cease to be resident it's hard to see how it would be valid.
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Hi all,
I have a question that goes through my mind. It's related to speeding offences, but not a specific one so posting here.
Let's assume a British resident (foreigner or national), legally owns 2 driving licence. One from UK, one from EU.
He drives a car in the UK, and when having an insurance quote, he has to provide his UK driving licence informations.
Question : When receiving a motorist offence notice, can the driver choose to declare his foreign (EU) licence instead of the British one ?
The obvious reason is to avoid the points on the British one, and the premium on insurance renewal, and there would be no offence attached to it.
I'v looked it up and it's quite blurred. First of all, it is allowed to hold those two licences. Then, the insurance, even if the quote requires your driving licence, is issued at your name and your name only.
So I can't find a reason why the police would refuse a submission, if you choose to mention and send a valid EU licence, instead of your UK one.
Any thoughts anyone ? Or return of experience ?
Thank you.