Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Choice4 on May 15, 2024, 07:50:18 pm
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https://imgur.com/a/TF77tq9
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Hi all
I want to thank all for their help
After my appeal was rejected I made a representation online stating there was no sign at the location of the event
I was waiting for the tribunal and today i received a letter that the ticket has been cancelled
It is good to fight
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Ok thanks
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Do I guess I will wait for the tribunal
How long those this take
And do I need to print out all my evidence to submit on that day or ahead of time
It doesn't work like that, the council has 56 days to serve a notice of rejection, you then have 28 days to appeal. Appeals are done online, you don't need to print anything at all. If you print documents and post them to the tribunal, they all get scanned and shredded, so it's a pointless exercise. You also don't need to submit anything unless the council contests the appeal.
Don't get ahead of yourself, let us know when you get the notice of rejection and we'll explain the next steps.
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Ok thanks
It worked
I have made a representation that the incident didn’t occur
Do I guess I will wait for the tribunal
How long those this take
And do I need to print out all my evidence to submit on that day or ahead of time
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@Choice4 you just follow the options to make the challenge again.
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Please which section on their website do I need to select to make a representation
Is it “Challenge a PCN” as I have previously challenged it
What will be the difference this time during representation
Thanks
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/pcns-and-parking-fines/
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@Choice4 honestly I would just make a simple representation saying that the contravention did not occur, without giving any further details or reasons. The council will reject no matter what you say but at the tribunal, it'll be up to them to prove their case.
Representations should always be made online via the council website, do not send anything by post.
Take a screenshot of the confirmation page once representations have been submitted.
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https://imgur.com/a/XwlCkGQ
See photos of the sign on G1 as the g
Junction of G1 and where E1 ends
And see previous signs they used to put in that location of G1 but they didn’t put it this time
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OP, where is the photo of your sign?
The council are required to ensure that event day info is adequately displayed. If not on the parking place traffic signs themselves then CPZ entry signs are permissible.
You were in zone G1.
Only signs pertaining to this zone count. The website publishes these locations.
Or are they claiming that zone G1 signs don't need Event Days if they follow from an adjoining zone on which Event Days are advertised?
OP, how did you arrive at your location and using the list as a reference which signs did you pass and were Event Days published and if so in what form?
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In the letter they said
“Whilst you have provided a photograph of a zone entry without event information, this sign is within the event zone and therefore doesn’t bear the even zone information on Garrat lane, only E1 signage when entering the zone from the south has event day restrictions “
Given the above I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued
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https://imgur.com/a/r4LnV5s
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I was parked at G1 garratt lane/ summertown
There was no notice there and when I appealed my PCN they replied to say the notice was at the beginning of E1
Let me find their reply
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OP, it's not clear to me where exactly you parked. You posted an apple maps link to a street (Garratt lane) which doesn't seem to have any parking?
As a starting point:
understand where exactly you parked
check on the council website what area it corresponds to
check if there was a sign where the council said there should have been https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/
For example, the council website states that the signs for G1 are located at:
G1 St. Martin’s Way/Maskell Road
G1 Garratt Lane/Summerstown
G1 Wimbledon Road/Blackshaw Road
If there was no sign, you can challenge the PCN on that basis. But you need proof. You can say that, according to the council website, you were expecting a sign at location X, no such sign was there, so the only logical conclusion was it was NOT an event day.
Be sure to take a screenshot or a video of the council website with some kind of timestamp, in case those esteemed gentlemen change it later!
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I took pictures on that day and there was no sign about the date of the event at that junction you mentioned they used to ah e it there in the
Past but they stopped putting it there
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GSV, May 2023; Moreton House (opp junction of Garratt Lane with Wimbledon Road); CPZ sign immediately outside with 'event day' board beneath facing towards traffic leaving G1.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QbQNCHbj4FstPRRC6?g_st=ic
The ad hoc sign on the post as you enter G1 is there, but the glaring issues to me are:
The CPZ sign is not of the form given in the website or in the council's evidence to the tribunal in the cited case (something which the appellant in that case didn't spot!);
The lower sign is not firmly attached and can reverse as shown in GSV.
And the so-called parking place is covered by a waiting restriction for 'goods vehicles' of any weight for part of its operational time which cannot be.
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Please can you post a picture of the signs you are referring to
Thanks a lot
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Don't just rely on that case, the merits of which would be in the minority among adjudicators IMO.
Look at the website; look at the G1 entry sign locations - at least one is wrong, massively so; look at Moreton House; look at the style of sign outside, it's NOT even the same format as per the website(in fact it's two signs one of which has been photographed facing the wrong way; get your own photos.
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Wow thank you so much for this reply
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OP, I won a similar (but different) case here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-on-an-event-day-but-no-sign-it-was-an-event-day/
I won it because the Council website reported the wrong dates as event days. The council replied that the dates on the website were just an example and not to be relied on, but the adjudicator disagreed and cancelled my PCN.
I also represented that the sign they had put up was outside Earlsfield train station, where cars cannot park; it was a dozen lines of text, it was impossible to read it without stopping, and, if every driver did that, it would be total chaos. The adjudicator remained completely silent on this point.
As of now, their website still has the same dates (Oct 2023). You might try that defense (case reference 2240033072 https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1606505,2992486,60,APPEAL&cs=3-BwrpHTBMXr3-4KGuHeNFK2uoRhj3W5chyVL07dMSVN5jHRb15KGP924ubbMcPTDJs3Nf7UdjEILtEhcK65Dkw ) but I suspect the council will say that, since the date on their website is so many months in the past, then it is clear it was just an example.
Their website says there should still be signs on G1 https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/
If you can prove there weren't, I believe you should have a stronger case.
FWIW I think it should be compulsory for councils to mention the exact days on their website, and not just in some hard-to-read signs far away from the actual parking locations. It would cost them nothing. But then cash-strapped councils wouldn't catch out as many motorists, would they?
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Please what evidence do I need to provide for representation I only have 28 days to do it
The reason I am thinking of writing are
1. The ticket issuer didn’t attach a reason why I was given a ticket
2. It was when I appealed I was told a football match was on and it was an event day
3.There was no notice about the match at the beginning of zone G1 but I was told there was a notice at the beginning of E1
4. I didn’t approach the road from E1 so i didn’t see the notice
5. I have a photo of previous notice they had kept at the beginning of G1 on match days and it looks they have stopped putting the notice and moved it to another location
Are these reasons enough for a representation or should I add something else
Thanks
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This is the google street view of where I parked
I parked exactly where that bike is parked under the road sign. And the picture of the road sign was also sent with the PCN
But please how do I write a representation
https://maps.apple.com/?address=London,%20SW17%200NN,%20England&auid=12106244587369337672&ll=51.432868,-0.182023&lsp=6489&q=SW17%200NN&_mvs=CjYJwxJ5M263SUARsARO5pNNx78ZAACSlKDZTEAh6Z6Cbk3wakApktwsMyfPC8AxAAAAAAAAAAASJgoQODM5IEdhcnJhdHQgTGFuZRIKV2FuZHN3b3J0aBoGTG9uZG9u
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I don’t think the sign at the location is the problem
But IMO it is. A sign may only reflect the provisions in a traffic order and in this case you may not have a waiting restriction and a parking place extant on the same length of road as here. Which brings the traffic orders into the equation, which means we need to know where in Garratt Lane you were parked.
A 'goods vehicle' could fit wholly within the parking place especially here where there isn't a weight limit attached to the restriction.
So, can you post a GSV of the location pl.
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I don’t think the sign at the location is the problem
The problem is that they are saying there was an event on the day parked there
But there must be a sign to warn motorists that an event is on but there was no sign of an event in G1 they said the sign was in E1
I appealed and it was rejected
So my next step is to do representation
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https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
OP, there is a significant conflict here between the signs.
The 'parking' sign has been amended to reflect AFC's success and purports to add controls on 'event days' on Saturdays '1-8.30pm', but unfortunately the lower sign states that there is a pre-existing 'order prohibiting waiting by goods vehicles[and buses] from [Mon-Sun] '6.30pm - M'night'.
They may not overlap, but do.
I suggest looking at the(or both) traffic orders.
And post a GSV location, we need to look at how widespread these 'no waiting' signs are.
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See notice to keeper which option do I select
https://imgur.com/a/murXhQf
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I received notice to owner today
Please can someone help me regarding what to do for the next step
There are a list of options to select on grounds for representation which I can make online
I haven’t done this before but my grounds are
1. There were no clear signs in zone G1 informing me that there was a football match on that day
I was told the sign was at the beginning of E1 but if one didn’t enter the road from E1 it would not be seen
And no evidence of the sign was attached to the photographic images on line
Is this enough to write or do I need to write more
Thanks
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True
How do I delete that post or edit it
Click on 'Modify' at top r-h corner of each of your own posts. (N>B> this function expires after a few days)
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True
How do I delete that post or edit it
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Well the CEO didn't take a photo of any zone entrance signs at all:
(https://i.imgur.com/DnfaD1d.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5rtSgJL.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XoqWmff.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/l993GAU.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/juxaDbU.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pv8zZb4.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SipqsrL.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BMWq4Fp.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zAP4ZCb.jpeg)
If this is all they can come up with at the tribunal, a submission of no case to answer might suffice. You certainly don't want to mention any evidential deficiencies in your representations though, as you don't want to forewarn them and give them a chance to submit better evidence to the adjudicator.
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Thank you
I guess I will have to wait until I receive it
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This is what the Statutory Guidance says: -
Issuing the notice to owner
If the penalty charge is not paid the enforcement authority may issue a notice to owner (NtO). The purpose of this is to ensure that the PCN was received by the vehicle owner and to remind the vehicle owner that the payment in full is now due and, if it is not paid within a further 28 days, it may be increased.
The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months [footnote 33] from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO. The regulations set out the information that the NtO must [footnote 34] give.
There are different requirements when the penalty charge notice acts as the NtO - see the section in this guidance on ‘Enforcement using approved devices’).
Authorities must [footnote 35] specify on the NtO (or the PCN when served by post) the statutory grounds on which representations may be made. Where a photograph or other camera evidence shows that the parking contravention took place, authorities should send this with the NtO as it should help to prevent unfounded representations.
Where a penalty charge is served on a vehicle with a diplomatic registration plate, but no payment is received within 28 days, an enforcement authority should not issue an NtO but keep a record of the unpaid penalty charge.
Every year the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will request details of all unpaid penalty charge notices and then seek payment from the relevant contraveners.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions#policy-and-administrative-functions
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I still haven’t received a notice to owner
How long does it usually take
I drove around yesterday and I have seen where they put a sign on E1 but it is misleading as it has a date and not a year also it is not at the beginning of G1 but at the beginning of E1 zone
So it is misleading to motorists especially those who don’t enter the road from E1 entrance
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I am sending the link
(https://i.imgur.com/EtTc9Km.jpeg)
The road is garratt lane which starts from Tooting Broadway all the way to Wandsworth
At the end of E1 zone there is a round about one goes to Wimbledon Road and the other continues as garratt lane and that’s when G1 zone begins
Normally there is a notice at the beginning of the round about as you enter G1 zone from E1 to inform motorists of event days but on this day there was no notice as I went back and took pictures that same day and I didn’t see the notice
Unless they now put the notice in a different location which wasn’t visible,
The rejection letter from Wandsworth could claims there was a notice on E1 entrance but i didn’t see it when I took photos
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@Choice4 please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) and then re-post the PCN without any redactions. Also please give us the location of the exact spot where you entered zone G1.
I do agree you have a viable case, if zone G1 is an event zone the signs should say so and if the zone sign did not tell you about this, the signage is inadequate IMO.
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I understand what you're getting at now. With an event day sign right by the sign for one of the zones, but with no applicable zones on it, it could be considered confusing if you then pass a sign for another zone with no event day sign. You could be mislead into thinking there were no restrictions for that zone.
So if you want to take this further, you'll have to wait for the Notice to Owner and submit a formal representation on the above lines. Note that whilst the discount option is lost, they normally re-offer it when rejecting reps, although there is no guarantee on this.
Others may wish to comment so do wait a bit.
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This is the type of notice they put at the beginning of the street on E1 but i took a picture on that day and this notice wasn’t there although the council letter was saying there was a notice on E1
There was none
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The road is Garrat lane in Tooting SW17
Please how do I send the link to the zone
I didn’t see any notice at the beginning of the road although they used to put it before
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Please give us a link to the relevant zones.
Where a street in one of the zones runs into another of the zones, one would not normally expect an EVD sign at the boundary between two zones that are part of the EVD scheme. EVD signs must be placed where one enters one of the relevant zones.
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Please can someone help!
I got a parking ticket from Wandswoth council on Saturday 27th of April on contravention 12( parking without permit)
But as this was a Saturday i didn’t need permit to park.
Sometimes when there is football on for AFC Wimbledon there is a notice as you enter the street to warn you of event day , but on this day there was no notice
I appealed the ticket and it was rejected saying there was football on in this day and there was a notice on entry of E1 only, there was no notice on entry for G1 where I was parked
Please can I contest this further or pay up, I have attached the PCN, and the appeal rejection letter
They used to put up notice on G1 entry on event days but they don’t anymore
[attachment deleted by admin]