Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: farenheit on June 15, 2023, 09:42:44 am
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No hearing at all, they've given up.
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1SANUYxIoTPw29FT9fdmIbAwgrKvBJxS1).
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You don't need to attend, hearings are done via video call and I can attend the hearing on your behalf. I'll drop you a PM with details on how to proceed.
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How does this work?
Do we need to attend?
Apologies for sounding 'thick'
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@farenheit that's an easy win: a notice issued on 31 August cannot be served on 31 August, the fastest you could possibly get it is 1 September.
For a representation received on 5 July the 56th day is 29 August, so the rejection is out of time and a guaranteed win at the tribunal.
Would you like me to represent you?
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Just received this through the post today.
One cancelled and the other at the reduced rate.
https://ibb.co/CtpQh2J
https://ibb.co/7GJqHj2
https://ibb.co/SxWxs1s
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It's the 31st and nothing received. 🤔
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If the representation was received by the council on 5 July, the deadline for them to serve a response is 29 August.
In the meantime, the traffic relevant traffic order schedules (should we need to look at them) are:
SCHEDULE 20 – Bus With Flow Lane (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1fCwEpBShc1O6CcTeDPV3toZU5blm6ukx)
SCHEDULE 20A – Bus With Flow Lane (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1O-nM9DShLAyQjiOEoHRGkubeIBffE0wn)
SCHEDULE 21 – Bus Contraflow Lane (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=10eyoL3ZnijU-7rOQPMDl3bte6mQyVdTa)
SCHEDULE 22 – Bus Guideway (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1eA_kDsAwJn2A0aaK3vhIibz0HEfMD5PD)
SCHEDULE 23 – Bus Only Street (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=19j8WMBw8a0X3FNOOazOUvmUQ-OB04o9k)
SCHEDULE 24 – Bus Gate (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1qtDK_sJZCvN4Fowgp_6-FOi39q1fhKhA)
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Thanks, I just checked and it states
"There is an outstanding charge of £70.00 for this Penalty Charge Notice. Click here if you would like to pay your Penalty Charge Notice"
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With most Councils you can check the status or enforcement history online. Sometimes hidden under 'check my PCN', Challenge my PCN', 'Pay me PCN' or similar.
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It's been over a month and have still not heard back regarding their decision?
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For later:
City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council (Moving Traffic) (Consolidation) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1h_GasMhOdLPMgABvv1j4VmtBhyfGov7Z)
City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council (Moving Traffic) (Consolidation) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2010 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gSczkxOyq-UAJyuxOAB1PW2TXWGtGWLF)
Just waiting on the original schedules.
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Received this response today:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I've tried checking online but can't see anything, the chatbot is purposely giving me options to either pay or appeal. Can't see the status.
You can get rid of that stupid chatbot (which is basically designed to dissuade you from challenging) by clicking "I don't need any help", which then takes you to https://pcnportal.bradford.gov.uk/
However the Bradford site is a bit rubbish so the only clue is in the amount due, once they issue a rejection the amount due will probably go back down to £35 so if that happens, you know a rejection has been issued.
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I've tried checking online but can't see anything, the chatbot is purposely giving me options to either pay or appeal. Can't see the status.
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Out of interest, how long should I wait or is it a case of waiting for a response?
Well, legally they have 56 days from receipt to respond, so you'll have to wait for a bit I'm afraid.
Keeping an eye on the amount should give you a clue, if they re-offer the discount you'll see the outstanding penalty go back down to the 50% rate when the rejection is issued. You can then call the council and ask them to email you a copy, which might be quicker than waiting for the post.
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Out of interest, how long should I wait or is it a case of waiting for a response?
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Uploaded proof of postage:
https://ibb.co/mSb0Fc3
Let's see...
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Ok, now I'm confused. Am I sending this letter?
Yes
Apologies if I come across thick but the last 2 posts before this post have gone over my head.
Don't worry, that's more of an internal discussion amongst experts, I have requested the traffic orders and I'll post them on here when they come back. If they open more avenues of appeal, I'll explain in more detail in due course.
Also, if I send the letter with just proof of postage, can't they just say they never received it.
If they receive it they're not going to lie and say that they didn't. Also as long as you can prove you posted it, there is a legal presumption it was received, see https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30/section/7
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Ok, now I'm confused. Am I sending this letter? Apologies if I come across thick but the last 2 posts before this post have gone over my head. Also, if I send the letter with just proof of postage, can't they just say they never received it.
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I'm going to have a look for the TROs, we've had strange things turn up in this sort of scenario before.
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2140244922
Contravention: Being in a bus lane
I am asked to overturn this penalty charge notice which the appellant emphasises was one of a pair of bearing the same time and date.
Mr F tells me that he calculates there is approximately some 250 metres between what is recorded.
The other penalty charge has been paid at £130 and I regard that as a closed file.
Given the proximity in time and space between the two occurrences I am not persuaded to uphold Barnet's claim to the second penalty charge under appeal today. Any Council arguments that separate bus lanes have a discrete legal status and thus justify two separate penalty charges on the facts of this case appear to me artificial and I do not accept them. I consider the appellant case stronger.
These considerations have resulted in me recording this appeal as allowed.
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Mike
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You won't hear back for weeks, but as long as you submit representations during the initial discount period, the rejection letter will re-offer the discount for at least another 14 days from the date of the letter.
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Thanks, will get on it.
If I don't hear back within the time limit of the reduced rate, then what?
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Can't see any obvious technical grounds, so a basic challenge will have to do:
Dear City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council,
I am challenging PCNs BQ95001402 and BQ95005287. Both PCNs were issued in under a minute on the same road, and I have not been able to locate any evidence of any signage, nor is any shown in any of the videos or photographs on the council website.
If you are not willing to cancel both penalties, I would ask that you at least cancel one of them and then allow me to pay the other at the 50% rate.
Yours faithfully,
If you send a single letter in the post, there's a chance they might only consider it as a representation against one of them, which then amounts to a procedural impropriety of failing to consider the representation against the other one, so this is one of the rare cases where I'll suggest a letter in the post would be best. But make sure to keep a copy, and get a certificate of postage from the post office (don't send it recorded delivery, a certificate of posting is free).
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Hi
This wasn't a written response, it was a phone conversation. Sorry if I didn't make this clear.
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The response I got was, pay one and appeal the other on the grounds that it is unfair and they will cancel it.
We need to see this response as well please.
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The rear of both letters is the same:
https://imgur.com/fx8byUl
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Can we see the remaining pages of the PCN please?
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Name
Address
PCN Numbers ????
I wish to challenge these two bus lane contraventions which happened at exactly the same time on Bridge Street.
Both occurred as a result of one continuous journey down Bridge Street and therefore should be classed as a continuous contravention. As such the combined penalty is excessive and it would be grossly unfair for the Council to penalise me twice.
I would therefore ask the Council to cancel the second PCN with a view to settling the first PCN at the discount rate.
Yours
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Thank you Mike,
I was planning on paying the one but not the other, just don't know how to go about it.
As I still have a couple of weeks, should I wait for someone r.e the validity of the PCN before I pay one?
Secondly, do I just draft a simple paragraph stating 2 pcns for the same contravention is unfair?
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OP---it would be classed as a continuous contravention and therefore only one PCN should be payable.
If there were bus lanes/gates in sequence it might have been difficult to "escape" once you were into the system.
If there are no faults on the PCNs I might pay one at the discount and challenge the other as above.
The same timing would suggest you are being penalised unfairly.
Mike
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Intro:
On Tuesday the 13th June I received 2 Bus Lane PCN's through the post:
BQ95001402-Bridge St Interchange and BQ95005287-Bridge St Hall Ings in Bradford.
They are both date 20/05/2023 at 15:56 (both for the exact same time - See documents).
https://imgur.com/a/wxvSOGw
Summary:
On the 20th May 2023, my father borrowed my vehicle to visit a few friends up north. Neither myself nor my father know Bradford very well. Unbeknown to them they had drove in a bus lane that day. Both letters (PCN's) state the same time for the same contravention. I contacted Bradford City Council to question why they think its acceptable to issue 2 bus lane pcn's on the same stretch. The response I got was, pay one and appeal the other on the grounds that it is unfair and they will cancel it.
As i am unaware of the area, i am unable to locate the exact stretch on google maps.
Google Street View Bridge Street:
https://goo.gl/maps/exNTkGLqMwTxzExu8
Google Street View Hall Ings:
https://goo.gl/maps/JYiP9cQurwEnERrL7
Conclusion:
My question is, are they within their right to issue 2 x PCN's for the same stretch (contravention)?
Should i appeal one and what would be my best argument other than what i was told by the call handler?