Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: estevenin on May 15, 2024, 11:32:09 am
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Well done for staying the course.
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Hi all,
Here's an update on this PCN, the council have cancelled it following my new appeal :
The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
The contents of your letter have been considered and I can confirm that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.
Thank you very much @Hippocrates for the help with the procedural improperties of the PCN and the case numbers! Here's what I sent exactly, if this happens to anyone else.
Hope that helps, this case is now closed.
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Thank you for your response. I follow your request, asking for a medical report, that an illness forced me to stop.
1. As previously stated, I am a private hire driver and I have briefly stopped as I felt unwell, after finishing a previous booking. I couldn't keep on driving safely, as I was afraid I'd pass out and cause an incident.
Based on the traffic order at this location:
"Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places
7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and Restrictions on use of parking places as set out in Articles 4, 5 and 8 of this Order:
(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his control;"
You'v kindly asked evidence that an illness forced me to stop, however I have not mentioned having any illness in my initial message, nor do I believe I have one, this was only a punctual episode, that might have occurred only once or twice in my life, not associated with any illness whatsoever, only due to punctual circumstances.
I would trust that the evidence of me laying down in the car (which you have in your possession), would have been enough to satisfy the following "obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property".
With that said, I have nevertheless try to satisfy your request, and have contacted the GP regarding this. I have received an answer from my GP, saying that a letter from my GP to confirm this, will cost 60GBP and take 28 days to be produced. You will then understand that, it does not make sense to pay a 60GBP GP letter, against a 35GBP PCN, which will anyway arrive after the delay you kindly allowed for sending this.
Please find attached to this letter, the response from my GP for your knowledge.
Without beeing able to provide a medical report, I hope that the existing evidence will be enough to support my point.
2. I note that in your answer that you haven't responded to my concerns regarding as to why, on seeing my car in contravention with me inside but not in a conscious state, the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left the scene without enquiring about my health.
Whilst it would not be against the law to apply a PCN to a deceased person as there have been similar cases before in the past, I find it quite disturbing for a person working for the public, to leave a person in an unconscious state, whether or not the Officer decides to apply a PCN.
In addition to my previous message, I also found out the following facts regarding the PCN in question:
3. The wording used on the PCN is incorrect.
The requirements for the information to be included in a PCN are set out at Schedule 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022. The relevant section being:
“2(d) the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,"
However, the PCN said:
"The Penalty Charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this Penalty Charge Notice was served"
Although the two dates will often be the same, as the PCN in this case does not state what it is required to state it is non-compliant with the Regulatory requirements and the law must always be observed, no penalty could be demanded on the basis of it, this amounts to procedural impropriety.
4. I also see that the allegation in the Penalty Charge Notice is the standardized and rather complex wording of a "12" allegation.
It consists of 43 words and encompasses the possibility of application to four different ways in which a contravention might occur.
The reason for this standardization relates to how the Mayor of London authorizes rates of penalty, however, this does not exempt the local authority from the legal necessity of giving to myself an adequate description of why the claim to penalty is being made.
This is to allow me to be able to make an informed decision as to whether to pay the discount rate or dispute the PCN.
The PCN did not, adequately explain the nature of the allegation, and this is another procedural impropriety.
5. Further to that, as this contravention code (12) covers different types of bays, it is essential that the suffixes and the additional explanatory wording issued with the contravention codes (in this case Suffix R -Residents bay) are used as motorists are entitled to know in which type of bay they were in when the contravention occurred.
This is confirmed at paragraph 6 of the guidance issued in the FAQ on Differential Parking Penalties issued on 15 May 2007 to the various London local authorities.
No suffix can be seen on the copy Penalty Charge notice, and this is another procedural impropriety.
I trust that first my response will be satisfying your request, and also make you aware of the procedural improprieties on the PCN in question
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Thanks.
I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
Why you parked in contravention;
Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but not in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring about your health.
IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same reps but clearly separated.
From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:
Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff (whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training, authority and resources to give the public a high quality, professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.
As for point one, I had gone through 3 streets after finishing my previous job and didn't see any free parking, those are very hard to find in and around London. I know for a fact there is the stansted service area about 7mn drive from where I parked, and it would have been very easy for me to drive there in any other time, but I felt the urgency to stop as soon as possible, I was dizzy and was afraid I would loose control.
As for point two, only they know! I'll respond with both of those points, as I don't have any further to say so far.
@estevenin so are you waiting for the notice to owner, or have you received it already?
I'm waiting for it. They gave me 14 further days to send a medical report. Surely after this delay, whether I respond or not, they'll reply with a refusal, giving me 14 further days to pay the discount, and after that an NTO (Or perhaps the NTO will come directly, for parking, can't remember the procedure).
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@estevenin so are you waiting for the notice to owner, or have you received it already?
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Thanks.
In short, you parked where permit parking only was allowed. Your only reference to why you parked where you did, as opposed to why you parked, is in your posts:
For safety reasons I stopped as soon as possible, as I was afraid to cause an accident. I turned for about 3 mn and in that condition this is the safest place I could find, I wasn’t even in a condition to look at signs.
You would have to flesh out how you ended up where you did as being 'as soon as possible' having regard to your route home from work.
I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
Why you parked in contravention;
Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but not in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring about your health.
IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same reps but clearly separated.
From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:
Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff (whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training, authority and resources to give the public a high quality, professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.
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IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the relevant issues in this case.
The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first question IMO is when did you park?
If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.
But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and oversleeping!
The two could be related but IMO are different issues.
Between 10.40AM and 11AM roughly. I stopped as soon as I could and layed down for a second. That made me fell asleep. I opened my eyes 20mn later and saw the PCN on the windscreen.
Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the first time it's happened?
No I don't have any illness. It did happen 2/3 times before in the past, that happens if I force too much during the week and spend too much time sitting and/or the seat position is not straight enough. I also had just worked all night and probably not enough food/water. When this happens I just stop for a few minut to rest and drive home. It is not something usual and if my work rythm is normal never feel dizzy or anything like that.
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Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the first time it's happened?
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IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the relevant issues in this case.
The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first question IMO is when did you park?
If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.
But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and oversleeping!
The two could be related but IMO are different issues.
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Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.
@estevenin funny you say that:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html
By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.
Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?
That comes at no surprise to me...
Even if you lose the case, you can still complain to the council about the CEO.
They might give him a medal
As I understand it, the OP has submitted reps.
OP, if so pl post a copy here. And who is the registered keeper - to whom the next notice would be sent if the PCN is neither cancelled nor the penalty paid?
I am. Copy of the challenge and response below
@estevenin here is a copy of The East Hertfordshire District Council (Control of Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NEMb7eBabDq8gd9Rbw6zUTMxSklyGxF3/view).
Are you still with us?
Thank you for that, yes I am. Was waiting for their answer.
I'v checked the order, haven't seen anything out of the ordinary, just that part which could relate to my challenge :
Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places
7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and
Restrictions on use of parking places as set out in Articles 4, 5 and 8 of this Order:
(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his control;
But then again, would the photo of me in the car be sufficient evidence so as to satisfy "obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property" ?
The challenge :
This is what I sent :
I wish to challenge this PCN as had suffered from Vertigo, some minutes before the PCN was issued.
Around 10.35AM I suffered Vertigo whilst driving, and felt as I was about to faint. For safety reasons I stopped as soon as possible, as I was afraid to cause an accident. I turned for about 3 mn and in that condition this is the safest place I could find, I wasn’t even in a condition to look at signs.
I stayed in the car and closed my eyes to rest for a few minutes, and as I opened them again about 20mn after at 11AM feeling ready to drive again, I found the PCN on my windscreen.
I have reviewed the evidence and understand I was parked without a valid permit, I apologize for not being able to review the signs before parking.
In this case I kindly ask for your discretion in cancelling that PCN, as I felt I had no other option but to stop as soon as possible. Evidence of zoom in from the warden pictures can show my legs and hands, as I am laying down inside the car waiting for the dizziness to pass.
I am concerned that the Parking Officer would not knock on the window to check if I was ok, or even call an ambulance if need be. I could have been passed out in there, or even worst, it could have been a dead person, all instead of receiving assistance, call an ambulance or at least check if the person inside is ok, there’d be instead a PCN being recorded.
It turns my stomack around writing those lines as I imagine the cynism of the situation, I wish the Enforcement Officer would simply have had more humanity in him this morning.
I hope the zoom-in evidence showing me inside the car will be sufficient to allow your discretion in that matter, I could phone up the doctor if need be in order to get a report, I’m not sure that’d help as it was a punctual trouble, but I can do it if you require. Can also provide evidence that I had driven away a few minutes after opening my eyes, as I felt the dizziness had passed, if required as well.
This is their answer :
Thank you for your correspondence in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
I have investigated the circumstances within your correspondence, however at this point I do not have all the evidence that I need from you in order for me to make a decision on your representation. Therefore in order to consider your case, we require further information within 14 days from the date of this letter.
You explained that you had to stop because the driver of the vehicle was feeling unwell.
I am sorry to hear about the circumstances that you have described, regarding the driver of the vehicle feeling unwell.
In order for me to consider your case further, I require proof that an illness required you to park where you did.
I have carefully looked through everything you have submitted, but cannot find any items of evidence from you to support what you have stated in your correspondence. Without the required evidence I am not prepared to accept your representation.
As such, in order for me to consider your representation thoroughly, please could you send us a copy of the relevant medical report?
Please send your evidence by uploading it to www.hertsparking.co.uk/eastherts or by post to the PO Box address at the top of this letter.
I should be grateful if you would forward this information within the next 14 days, to prevent further correspondence on this matter and the possible escalation of the case.
Once I am in receipt of this information I will be pleased to consider the matter further
Thank you in anticipation of your prompt attention to this request.
Yours sincerely
That gives me 2 more weeks, before they reject it. They are asking for a medical report that "an illness required me to park immediately". I'm sure I could get a medical report by saying to my GP that I felt sleepy and was nearly passing out and had to stop, but there's no illness involved and this is a very punctual thing that might have happened only once before. I think they didn't write "illness" by mistake here, so not sure a medical report would even help.
If you think that it would be wise to get one anyway, then I can phone up the GP and try to get that. If not, then I just need to wait for the refusal.
Thank you
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@estevenin here is a copy of The East Hertfordshire District Council (Control of Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NEMb7eBabDq8gd9Rbw6zUTMxSklyGxF3/view).
Are you still with us?
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Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.
@estevenin funny you say that:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html
By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.
Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?
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As I understand it, the OP has submitted reps.
OP, if so pl post a copy here. And who is the registered keeper - to whom the next notice would be sent if the PCN is neither cancelled nor the penalty paid?
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I have e mailed estevenin (whose sartorial attire was not the same on the day of his mega case v Ealing in October 2022 ;D ) and have offered to do a draft on two technical issues re the PCN and discretion.
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Which of the CEO's photos best shows you asleep in the car and where were you?
Image 6 (https://ibb.co/yQs6TCz) you can clearly see a person in jeans lying back in the drivers seat.
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Which of the CEO's photos best shows you asleep in the car and where were you?
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Even if you lose the case, you can still complain to the council about the CEO.
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Hi all,
Thank you for the feedback.
Sorry for not responding earlier, just got back to my laptop, I'm between moves and it's a bit of a chaos.
Seems to be the last day today for the reduced amount, I will appeal tonight probably asking for discretion (likely to fail but will at least make them work), couldn't find anything to say myself but here goes the PCN and evidence anyway (In the 4th pictures we see my legs, in some others, a bit of my hands) :
(https://i.ibb.co/ZV4Hg0Y/pcn.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZV4Hg0Y) (https://i.ibb.co/6sMygzW/pcn-back.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sMygzW) (https://i.ibb.co/mvNFQPp/Get-Image-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mvNFQPp) (https://i.ibb.co/KjmRQ20/Get-Image-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KjmRQ20) (https://i.ibb.co/kqSjHgQ/Get-Image-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqSjHgQ) (https://i.ibb.co/yQs6TCz/Get-Image-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yQs6TCz) (https://i.ibb.co/v3NyCwS/Get-Image-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v3NyCwS) (https://i.ibb.co/ZMFbR3H/Get-Image-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZMFbR3H) (https://i.ibb.co/x5sSXfX/Get-Image-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x5sSXfX) (https://i.ibb.co/GtLHwc5/Get-Image-8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GtLHwc5) (https://i.ibb.co/XZBynvV/Get-Image-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XZBynvV) (https://i.ibb.co/Brhdqw7/Get-Image-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Brhdqw7) (https://i.ibb.co/xfJY6Y5/Get-Image-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xfJY6Y5) (https://i.ibb.co/PYS9xJC/GetImage.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PYS9xJC)
It doesn't matter whether you are in the car or not.
I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move.
Understanding went out with traffic wardens who would probably have asked you to move on. They came under the police, so there was no money influence, unlike with councils who make shedloads of money out of PCN penalties.
Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.
Would that PCN be passed on to my heirs, or would it be cancelled since written after the death of the keeper ? Haven't seen that one on the list of grounds of appeal...
What we do for £35.
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@estevenin as always please post up the paperwork and we'll see if we can sort something out.
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Incandescent has answered your direct question, however, please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to loacation and we can see if there is any error in the 'small print'.
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It doesn't matter whether you are in the car or not.
I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move.
Understanding went out with traffic wardens who would probably have asked you to move on. They came under the police, so there was no money influence, unlike with councils who make shedloads of money out of PCN penalties.
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Hi all,
After a long night working, I started falling asleep whilst driving, so I stopped as soon as I could to take a nap.
I was parked in a resident permit street, without permit, so the ticket is issued correctly no doubt about that.
Nevertheless, I fell asleep and after a 20mn nap I wake up to a PCN in my windscreen. I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move. Needless to say that I feel really upset.
Is it legal to give someone a PCN when the person is in the car ? Can't post the evidence now just woke up to it.
In most pictures the reflect prevents seeing anything inside however in one picture we can see my legs resting.
Thanks for the advice.