Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: fine_off on July 12, 2023, 08:58:46 pm

Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: cp8759 on August 26, 2023, 06:57:05 pm
I suspect we could have won the other case, but if you're happy then that's not a bad outcome.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: fine_off on August 21, 2023, 04:10:15 pm
I finally received a response to my representations from Tower Hamlets after quite a long wait.  I have shared the response below.

The long story short is that Tower Hamlets have cancelled one charge and insisted I pay the other, citing a case of "double jeopardy".  I was satisfied with accepting this rather than draw out the process.  I made the £65 payment today.

I understand that I may have had a case for fighting against it further, but I did want the matter closed.  Thank you for your research that you have shared here, cp8759.  I will note this for any future cases I may have to deal with, and I hope it serves as fightback material for others around London.

Thank you for all of your help!  I am happy with the result.


PS - I don't seem to get email notifications when I receive replies to this topic.....

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 06:25:04 pm
The principal traffic order is The Tower Hamlets (Traffic Movement And Speed Limit Regulations) (Consolidation) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16hxRVmY5YuQYPiZpOXCXjpS6KQ6jUAQE/view?usp=sharing), which is amended by The Tower Hamlets (Traffic Movement and Speed Limit) (Map Based) (No.1) (Amendment No. 7) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XBpwhbsbQUMja2SOr2QyjmtmdEQLe50J/view?usp=sharing).

The amendment order implements a series of new map tiles including:

Map tile K10 revision 2 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IdVsbCKQjG0F2w17cti9m2blJHEm_r3p/view?usp=sharing), which torpedoes PCN TT55449109 as it shows that the sign shown in the video is not enforceable as it's not positioned as close as practicable to the start of the restriction, and the two signs shown further back on google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/WR1ePyUNsWxQ6Uao8) are not enforceable by the council because they're not on the Tower Hamlets part of the road (they can be enforced by TFL, or by Tower Hamlets with TFL's prior written consent, but we know from experience that Tower Hamlets are unlikely to have any such written consent).

Supporting cases on the consent issue:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022) (https://bit.ly/3W0P71M)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023) (https://bit.ly/3lo6Bb9)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023) (https://bit.ly/41uq7SX)

Map tile J10 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sgCQO-tOqItcepJmHIa5P9rd1K6daHHG/view?usp=drive_link) shows the junction for the other PCN, but the issue of signage there is enough to potentially win.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: fine_off on July 19, 2023, 10:27:06 am
Understood!  Thank you for your time!
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 12:34:00 am
Quote from: fine_off on July 18, 2023, 12:24:50 pm
Thank you very much for this draft.

You say that the PCN numbers have been very deliberately cited as they have been
Yes, it's deliberate. It's better if I don't elaborate on here the reasons for that.

Also the sign you've found isn't compliant with the regulations, so it doesn't invalidate the case.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: fine_off on July 18, 2023, 12:24:50 pm
Thank you very much for this draft.

You say that the PCN numbers have been very deliberately cited as they have been - but I am confused. TT55449277 concerns the left turn into Coborn Street from Coborn Road and TT55449109 from the other end - from Mile End Road.  You have referred to them the other way around?

Also, I found an advance warning sign on Coborn Road - very easily missed: https://goo.gl/maps/fJpw1iHb7AGxCV9i6

[attach=1]

Does this invalidate the case?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: cp8759 on July 14, 2023, 01:55:10 pm
The controlled parking zone sign is for, well, parking; it has nothing to do with moving traffic restrictions. Here's a draft representation.

Dear London Borough of Tower Hamlets

I would like to make representations against PCNs TT55449277 and TT55449109 on the following grounds.

Firstly in respect of PCN TT55449109, I would suggest that in the absence of any advance warning signs, there is inadequate notice of the restriction given to motorists turning left into Coborn Street from Coborn Road.

Secondly, both PCNs were incurred within a few minutes of each other, so looking at the totality of the circumstances I invite you to consider whether it is proportionate to enforce both penalties.

I would thus ask whether you would be willing to cancel PCN TT55449109 and allow PCN TT55449277 to be paid at the 50% discounted rate.

Yours faithfully,

Before you ask, the PCN numbers have been very deliberately cited as they have been.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: fine_off on July 14, 2023, 12:22:19 pm
Thank you for your time on this.  It is interesting you say that the sign to the north end might be contestable (TT55449277) - it is indeed hard to spot the signs from the direction I approached.

Regarding the advance warning sign, I don't know if this will count ("Controlled Zone" sign):
https://goo.gl/maps/XKEZqsfANjU2Aypo9

Here are the orders to revoke from the Traffic Enforcement Centre:

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

Do you not think that the "continuing offence" claim is viable?  I am prepared to take the hit on just one of the tickets if there is a simpler case for doing so.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: cp8759 on July 12, 2023, 11:54:57 pm
PCN TT55449277 might be winnable on the signage as you turned left:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtl2rGJMjqU

Looking here https://goo.gl/maps/9HJGoaxAMHX7Q75x8 I can't see any evidence of an advance warning sign.

TT55449109 is more problematic as you were facing the sign head-on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-hQWw00fSA

Can you post up the revoking orders form TEC please?

In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
Title: Tower Hamlets, code 53 - 2 x PCNs within 20 mins - Coborn Street
Post by: fine_off on July 12, 2023, 08:58:46 pm
I received 2 PCNs for driving through a time-restricted pedestrian zone, within 20 minutes of each other. I drove through from the North side, then 20 minutes later, I drove back through from the other way. This street is very close to my home, and my sense of familiarity with the local streets I guess blinded me to the signs. I also just followed my Google Maps navigation (even locals need to use it in London to navigate the no-turning/one-way/restriction jungle)

What hurts and feels unfair is that I get fined twice within 20 minutes, for the same street restriction.  I feel that it is really just one offence.

The other annoying thing is that the restrictions are there to keep the children at the school on this road safe (zone restrictions operate 8.15am to 9.15am, and 3pm to 4pm, Mon-Fri) - on the day of the contravention, the school was closed due to national teacher strikes. Indeed, it was because I had to drop off my kids at a friend's so I could work, that I ended up taking this journey which I would otherwise not make.  I doubt this ground for a case, but you can see the frustration.

If I were to be nit-picky, I would say that the sign to the South end of Coborn Street is very difficult to read before you turn into the street. The Bow Road is a fast road with a lot of traffic and there is a cycling lane that you mustn't block. You have to stop to read the sign. Coupled with the double red lines at the mouth of the street in front of the sign that means "no stopping", you are forced to contravene traffic rules one way or another if you don't have prior knowledge.

I would be willing to take the hit on one of the tickets, but I don't think it is fair to pay the fine for the second offence. I have read posts on pepipoo about "continuing offence" and I wondered if this would apply here?

I would appreciate any further advice if I had a fair chance of success. I appreciate all that you guys on this forum do.

NB:
Note that these PCNs were re-issued as I didn't receive the original ones and had the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery cancelled, hence the long delay between contravention date and Date of Notice. I followed the advice of a good post on these forums and followed this process:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

Copy of PCN 1:
[attach=1]

Street View Coborn Street (North-West end):
https://goo.gl/maps/ELXZ1zZQBDREyKse9


Copy of PCN 2:
[attach=2]

Junction Street View Coborn Street (South end):
https://goo.gl/maps/gtc8u5VjuZYsQahm7

[attachment deleted by admin]