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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: roadster01 on May 14, 2024, 12:06:14 am

Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: Hippocrates on December 11, 2024, 06:59:00 am
Good to see the Practice Direction of former Chief Adjudicator, Martin Wood, being followed. One other, Mr Lane, has now sadly retired.  :'(
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on December 11, 2024, 12:47:37 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_7owiFtt9bfVmkbcjsUMh2f5d43SBQs/view).
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on September 15, 2024, 09:47:54 pm
@roadster01 well as they've not reoffered the discount you might as well appeal, as you have nothing to lose: appealing is free and if the appeal is unsuccessful you still only have to pay £80, so the worst case scenario is that you're no worse off than you are right now.

I'll drop you a line in case you'd like to be represented.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on September 15, 2024, 08:32:39 pm
@cp8759 I finally received my reply. Rejected. Any use taking this further? Or should I just pay?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nQQXn-FU89_Te5eJEXq1Uf24zzHW9rAD?usp=drive_link
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on July 29, 2024, 09:00:15 pm
@roadster01 I've finished off the draft in post 31 above.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: H C Andersen on July 29, 2024, 10:12:58 am
OP, can we go back to the permits pl.

Your account and the vouchers are at odds on the face of it. The permits are very badly worded IMO. If you took their instructions literally then drivers are hostage to events outside their control.

Why?

Because the permits state:
Visitors Hourly Parking Permit
Scratch out time of arrival.

So, how might a driver apply this when parked in a part-time bay?

Display the permit when parking but don't mark this time, mark when the restriction comes into force?
Don't display the permit until the last minute and scratch out the time when the permit is displayed?

Is there anything on the back which helps a driver interpret the otherwise clear but very difficult to comply with instruction on the front?

If not then the circumstances at 10am would have been beyond your control.

If not, could this be fed into your reps?

We haven't seen your initial reps so don't know what you've already said.

At least you could bat away any argument that you should have chosen a quieter time to fill out the permit i.e. children eat when they will; had to wait until nearly 10 so that you wouldn't be displaying a permit which indicated your arrival X hours into the future; perfect, or imperfect, storm of events.
And acknowledge making a complete hash, in fact the only thing you got right was the time..and even this wasn't when you arrived/displayed the permit!
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 29, 2024, 12:23:42 am
@cp8759
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 28, 2024, 12:00:51 am
@cp8759 No I did not, I already received the PCN and wasn't going to use another one for 15 mins. You can include the proof of the fact that the 1st of April wasn't a Wednesday. Also I'm not sure what can be done about the lack of VRM.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on July 26, 2024, 09:20:09 pm
Here's the best I can come up with in the circumstances:

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

On the day in question I was visiting my parents and I was well aware of the requirement to display a valid visitor's permit between the hours of 10 and noon.

I realized at around 9-9:15 that I needed to scratch out a permit and go outside to display it in the car. This was around Breakfast time for my two children. My wife was still upstairs so I had them both to feed, I put the one year old in the highchair and gave her Weetabix. The 2 year old was seemingly occupied with his cereal so I thought I'd grab a moment to scratch out the permit. I gave my phone a cursory glance to check the date while keeping an eye out to prevent a Weetabix tornado. I saw it was the 1st and proceeded to scratch it out.

Calm moments don't last too long and soon noticed the 2 year old run out of his seat, I carried on scratching slightly distracted and must've scratched April by rote. It all went downhill from there... I heard a muffled thud from the dining room and my oldest bursting into loud wails. I grabbed the permit and ran. By the time I had the situ under control I really needed to run to the car. however I came back to the kitchen and discovered that the 1 year old had happily used my absence to practise her make-up artistry - with Weetabix! I must admit by that point I was a bit flustered and yelled to my wife to come down while I ran out to the car. I finished scratching it out and made a dash for it. When came back I had the honors of weeding the Weetabix out of said youngest's hair, and I didn't give another moment's thought to the permit. It wasn't until around 11:45 when my mother mentioned some event that was due to take place on 9th May and she said "next week" that it hit me. I zipped out to the car but it was too late and a penalty charge notice had been issued.

I would point out that 1st April was not a Wednesday, while 1st May was a Wednesday. The last 1st April that fell on a Wednesday was in 2020 and the next 1st April falling on a Wednesday is in 2026, but as the permit requires the year to be scratched out there is no possibility of this permit having been used in 2020 or being re-used in 2026, this does not render the permit compliant but is clear evidence for the fact that there was no attempt to deliberately abuse the parking facilities nor has there been any attempt to re-use a permit.

In light of these mitigating circumstances I would invite you to consider not pursuing enforcement on this occasion, and you will no doubt be aware that the fact that a contravention occurred is not, in and of itself, a reason to refuse to exercise your discretion as requested.

Yours faithfully,

Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 26, 2024, 12:00:30 am
@cp8759 I've noticed that my deadline is actually Friday 2 August 2024.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 25, 2024, 07:23:39 pm
@cp8759 I'm merely tagging you as I see you haven't noticed my reply.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 24, 2024, 01:24:53 am
@cp8759 I needed two permits as each one is valid for an hour. (restriction's from 10-12)
I don't have the original permits but these are all the pictures on the council page. You will see that both have the same date (wrong month scratched out- it was the 1st of May...) one is from 10am and the other from 11am, however as the council pointed out, I also forgot to write the reg.
Permits (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1o-HP8H5wMhbKHnTy6spF_hOjk62IaBE9?usp=drive_link)
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on July 23, 2024, 11:46:48 pm
@@roadster01 so why are there two permits on the dashboard?

Also, could you please upload a proper scan of both permits? I can barely work out what's been scratched out.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 23, 2024, 11:00:43 pm
@cp8759, I'm sorry I thought I made it clear (in my first post). I'm married and live in another borough, I was visiting my parents who live in Harringay and ended up staying overnight. I only realised the next morning that if I stay till after 10am I'd need a permit.
P.S. I'm really grateful for all your tireless work. Thank You!
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on July 23, 2024, 08:02:15 pm
@roadster01 well unfortunately you've missed the 14 days, you only tagged me in the thread yesterday and I've been swamped with tribunal hearings these past few days (I can't realistically read every thread 100% the time).

Anyway, you now have a hard deadline of 5 August to make a representation, so we might as well do the best we can in the time available. Starting with the basics could you clarify "I realized only that morning around 9-9:15 that I needed to scratch out a permit", how would this have come about? They look like daily permits, so surely you have to do this every day?

And if it's outside your house why are you using daily permits in the first place?

And you must tag me when you reply, or I might not see your reply for three weeks.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 22, 2024, 01:44:45 pm
@cp8759, do you think There's any hope? I think my 14 days are up... Please can you help me draft a formal representation? Or do you think I should just pay?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 11, 2024, 11:16:49 pm
Oh gosh! You're right- I totally overlooked that! I really didn't enter the VRM. Is there still any hope?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: H C Andersen on July 11, 2024, 06:03:57 pm
OP, according to their response - although you hadn't mentioned it as far as I can see - marking the wrong date wasn't the only issue:

'..you also needed to enter the vehicle registration number in the yellow box...but it was blank.'

Then it wasn't valid, ever!

OP, you photo is tricky to view because of the reflected flash, was the VRM entered or not? It seems not.

Then it's the wrong contravention. But maybe we should cut them some slack and say that the CEO thought this permit belonged with your car. In which case IMO it's improper of the authority to use this as part of their rational for rejecting your challenge.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on July 10, 2024, 11:57:27 pm
I have just received my NTO (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iyO_cAD19xOh1KkwfSOwE8kh1QLTHgXF?usp=sharing) . Please advise me how to proceed.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: Incandescent on June 16, 2024, 11:21:22 pm
Hmm, interesting.
They may have shot themselves in the foot by mentioning they have already cancelled one PCN previously. The implication is that because of this they have not bothered to consider your representations for this latest PCN. This could be interpreted as "fettered discretion", a procedural impropriety.

However, I may be wrong, so wait until others comment.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:19:55 pm
@roadster01 let me know when you get the notice to owner and I'll draft a formal representation for you.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on June 16, 2024, 10:58:03 pm
I've actually just received my rejection. I've attached it here.
Rejection (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kRqx41wwqvmdi9JhO_D_5fiwmToXcrsdzW58A2VnRMw/edit?usp=drive_link)
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 15, 2024, 06:38:19 pm
@roadster01 as far as I can see your informal representation has not been dealt with yet?

(https://i.imgur.com/TjWL1fw.png)

I think you've given us enough information to build a compelling formal representation, but we might as well wait for the informal rejection first.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on June 10, 2024, 09:20:16 pm
Okay. I'll do my best to remember all the details.
I realized only that morning around 9-9:15 that I needed to scratch out a permit and go outside to display it in the car. This was around Breakfast time for my two kids (no playgroup that day hence I visited my parents). My wife was still upstairs so I had them both to feed. I put the one year old in the highchair and gave her Weetabix. The 2 year old was seemingly occupied with his cereal so I thought I'd grab a moment to scratch it out. I gave my phone a cursory glance to check the date while keeping an eye out to prevent a Weetabix tornado. I saw it was the 1st and proceeded to scratch it out.
Calm moments don't last too long and soon noticed the 2 year old run out of his seat , I carried on scratching slightly distracted and must've scratched April by rote. It all went downhill from there... I heard a muffled thud from the dining room and my oldest bursting into loud wails. I grabbed the permit and ran. By the time I had the situ under control I really needed to run to the car. however I came back to the kitchen and discovered that the 1 year old had happily used my absence to practise her make-up artistry - with Weetabix! I must admit by that point I was a bit flustered and yelled to my wife to come down while I ran out to the car. I finished scratching it out and made a dash for it. When came back I had the honors of weeding the Weetabix out of said youngest's hair, and I didn't give another moment's thought to the permit. It wasn't until around 11:45 when my mother mentioned some event that was due to take place on 9th May and she said "next week" that it hit me. I zipped out to the car but it was too late. it was all adorned with a bright yellow souvenir...

That's the basic outline. Theatrics were added for effect (and because I enjoy it.) but all the details are true to the best of my memory. Anyone with kids will understand that a babysitting dad requires too much multitasking for any male. Just the constant thought "what are they gonna do next?" is enough to distract...
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 10, 2024, 02:40:29 am
@roadster01 as painful as it might be, I think you need to provide a detailed account of all the goings-on that you describe as "mini-emergencies". You only have mitigation to advance at the notice to owner stage, so the representation needs to be truly compelling.

Once we have your account, we can build a representation around that.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on June 07, 2024, 07:00:08 pm
Just the usual's, Catching Nappies before they leak. I think at some point one of them banged into the edge of a table and needed calming while we needed to keep an eye out for the younger one (who only crawls) as she kept making a beeline for the stairs. Regular lively kids. I don't generally get a long time to focus on things while they're in action ;D
Trying to juggle that and breakfast just meant that my permit scratching skills were not up to par. I can't say for sure but I probably would've noticed the mistake had I been more settled.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 07, 2024, 01:05:25 pm
Can you please describe the nature of the "mini-emergencies"?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on June 02, 2024, 11:32:11 pm
Youngest is just over 1. The older one is turning 3 in a 2 months
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 02, 2024, 10:00:19 pm
How old are the children?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 29, 2024, 11:12:53 pm
Not anything special that I can think of other than what @zwi pointed out. I couldn't have used the permit on any other date.
I was visiting my parents at the time and I couldn't leave early. My two kids were busy having mini emergencies (this happens quite often 😁) so it's quite understandable that I wasn't fully focused as I was scratching out the card.
Thanks
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 05:34:34 pm
@roadster01 well the only things you can do now are wait for the NTO or pay, and considering that the discount will be offered again as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days, there's not much point in paying now.

That being said the formal representations need to be as robust as possible.

Do you have any mitigation that could be put to the council, even if it is wholly unrelated to the contravention?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 22, 2024, 11:28:19 pm
I had sent it before posting here. So I just wrote in short that it was a mistake and that i had really filled it out that morning. I was just trying to buy time as my 14 days were nearly up.
They will definitly uphold the PCN (hard hearts...), So I'll just wait for an NTO?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 10:05:45 pm
Good point, however as I already sent my reps I want to make sure this claim would stand in court. What do you think?
PCNs don't go to court, so that would be a bit difficult. It wouldn't be relevant at the tribunal either because you're submitting mitigation, and only the authority has a power to cancel a penalty based on mitigating circumstances.

But even if the PCN is upheld at the informal stage that is not a reason not to have another go at the NTO stage, as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days you're almost certain to get the discount reoffered.

That being said, for now it would be useful to see what you sent.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 16, 2024, 08:27:59 pm
Good point, however as I already sent my reps I want to make sure this claim would stand in court. What do you think?
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: zwi on May 15, 2024, 02:58:52 pm
Maybe you can prove that 01/04/24 was not on Wednesday, as I see you scratch Wed  which was 01/05/24
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 14, 2024, 08:38:08 pm
I had a look,
I believe that the paragraph I circled in the picture attached contains the info in 3 (1)(c). I'm not that great with all the legal jargon (quite hopeless actually) but let me know if I'm wrong.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: Incandescent on May 14, 2024, 01:44:27 am
As far as I can see, the PCN does not comply with these regulations: -

The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022

In particular, Chapter 1, Regulation 3

Quote
CHAPTER 1
Information to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices
Information about right to make representations or appeal to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices
3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Do you see anything like 3(1)(c) on it ? All of 3(1) a, b, and c must be on the PCN. Different words can be used, but must convey the same meaning.
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 14, 2024, 12:36:15 am
Here's the back.
I've the grovelling approach before- hard hearts indeed.... 


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: Incandescent on May 14, 2024, 12:24:30 am
Please post the back of the PCN so we can look for errors in the "small print".

It might be worth submitting reps on a grovelling basis, saying that you were staying at your parents and had not realised the month was now May, (the PCN is dated 1st May), so scratched-out the wrong month and ask that on this ocasion the PCN be cancelled. However the hardest of hard hearts are found in council parking departments, so don't expect too much, but you never know.
Title: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
Post by: roadster01 on May 14, 2024, 12:06:14 am
Hi,
I recently received this PCN for an expired visitors permit (I was visiting my parents here). It is true that I scratched out "April" instead of "May" (Contravention occurred on 01/05/2024) however this was a total mistake, I had actually scratched it that morning!
I have submitted a reps stating this just to extend my Reduced Charge, although I know this won't stand at all to cancel the PCN.
I'm wondering if anyone can find some legal issue to invalidate the PCN before I pay.

Photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WdCoK8vB1z_91BOAdkc4QjL2Erhjmp3s?usp=drive_link

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xWw8nB69HByxD6ZS9

There are more pictures on the council website.

Thanks