Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 12, 2024, 08:20:33 pm

Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: slapdash on June 26, 2024, 12:18:02 pm
Check the hire conditions carefully, some say they will refund if the charge is overturned. Some say they won't. Many are silent.

A complaint may cause an ex gratia refund,if not a bit of noise on their socials pointing out it is fundamentally unreasonable "xxx still charge £x for notifying an incorrect parking charge" is not a great look.

If it's silent on refunds there is an argument it's an unfair term under the consumer rights act.

I don't really see the issuer was negligent in the original issue, holding them liable would be a stretch.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on June 26, 2024, 10:30:32 am
Withdrawn by the operator, thanks all!

If anyone has tips for dealing with the administration charges added by the hire company, that would be helpful.

My contract with them is pretty clear that "traffic violations/PCN’s/Parking Charge Notices are subject to management fees", so seems unlikely I'd be able to dispute it with them.

Small claims against Premier Park for the costs incurred?
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on June 07, 2024, 01:21:08 pm
I'd swap #1 and #2 around. #2 becomes the issue because of the failure of #1.

State that you are the hirer. You should list all the points at the beginning of your POPLA appeal and then go through each one in detail. Throw the kitchen sink at them. For example:

Appeal re POPLA Code: [XXX] v [PPC name]
Vehicle Registration: [XXX]
POPLA ref: [XXX]

I, the Hirer of this vehicle, received a letter dated [date] acting as a Notice to Hirer (NtH). My appeal to the operator – [PPC name] – was submitted and acknowledged on [date] but subsequently rejected by a letter/email dated [date]. I contend that I, as the Hirer, am not liable for the alleged parking charge and wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:

1) Non-PoFA compliant Notice to Hirer (NtH)
2) Not the driver/not the person who may be liable for the charge
3) Not the landowner/No landowner contract
4) Inadequate signage

1.  Non-PoFA compliant NtH

PoFA Schedule 4, paragraph 14(1) states that for the creditor to be able exercise their right to recover from the Hirer any unpaid parking charges, the conditions set out in paragraph 14(2) must be met. Those conditions include that the documents mentioned in 14(2)(a), 14(2)(b) and 14(2)(c ) must be included with the NtH. The operator has failed to provide copies of those documents with the NtH and therefore failed to comply with the requirements of PoFA thus invalidation their right to recover any charges from the Hirer.

2. Not the driver/not the person who may be liable for the charge

The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103). In cases with a Hirer appellant, yet no PoFA 'Hirer liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption or inference can be made about liability whatsoever.

In cases with a Hirer appellant, yet no PoFA 'Hirer liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. As there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a Hirer without a valid NtH.

As the Hirer of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4 of PoFA. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported NtH was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the Hirer and ONLY Schedule 4 of PoFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a Hirer appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with PoFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

Understanding Keeper/Hirer liability - 'There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the Keeper/Hirer of the vehicle.

There is no 'reasonable presumption' in law that the Keeper/Hirer of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then Keeper/Hirer liability does not generally pass.'

Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as Hirer of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using PoFA.

This exact finding was made in POPLA case 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:

"I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."

3. Not the landowner/No landowner contract

As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

Section 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

Section 7.1 states:

"If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges."

Section 7.2 states:

"If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken."

Section 7.3 states:

"The written authorisation must also set out:

a. the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined.

b. any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation.

c. any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement.

d. who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs.

e. the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement”.

I do not believe that the Operators mere site agreement as a contractor issuing PCNs and letters 'on behalf of' the landowner gives the parking firm any rights to sue in their own name. This is insufficient to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and not enough to hold me liable in law to pay the Operator. The Operator has no title in this land and therefore has no standing to enforce 'parking charges' or penalties of any description in any court. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that the Operator is entitled to pursue these charges in their own right.

In order to comply with paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically worded contract with the landowner - not merely an 'agreement' with a non-landholder managing agent - otherwise there is no authority. I put the Operator to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements.

4. Inadequate Signage

I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given 'adequate notice' of the charge. PoFA defines 'adequate notice' as follows:

"(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) 'adequate notice' means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".

Even in circumstances where PoFA does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making an assessment, as appellant, of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and POFA, I am of the view that the signage at the site - given the minuscule font size of the £sum, which is illegible in most photographs and does not appear at all at the entrance - is NOT sufficient to bring the parking charge (i.e. the sum itself) to the attention of the motorist.

There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

(https://i.imgur.com/RY8sJYk.jpeg)

In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

(https://i.imgur.com/0es4ZyS.jpeg)

This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the PoFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision case 5960956830 on 02/06/2016, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

"...the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal."

From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

http://www-archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm

As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

http://www.signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx

"When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2' letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3' or even larger."

"When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall.

"...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance."

So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

(1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.

(2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html

This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.

Conclusion

Taking all the above into account, I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld, and the PCN is dismissed.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on June 07, 2024, 12:12:51 pm
I'd beef up #1 by stating explicitly that Premier Park's notice states only that the driver is liable, and makes no mention of any other party being liable. Then state that they have written to you in your capacity as the hirer, that they do not know who the driver is. I wouldn't 'request' them to provide evidence, but instead state as fact that they do not know who the driver is, and are writing to you as the hirer.

I'd open #2 by being a bit more explicit that Premier Park are not seeking to hold you, the hirer, liable for the charge, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act. Then make your points that even if they were seeking to hold you liable as the hirer they are unable to because...

It might feel like you are repeating yourself or stating the obvious, but the more explicit you are with your points, the less room you leave for alternative interpretations.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on June 07, 2024, 11:58:32 am
Productive morning at work...



#1 - Driver not identified

The letter sent to me, the hirer, states that the driver is liable to pay a parking charge and that they have a right to recover the charge from the driver. I request that Premier Park Ltd (PP) provide evidence as to who the driver is.


#2 - PoFA NtH non-compliance

Hypothetically, even if PP had wanted to hold the hirer liable, their Notice to Hirer has failed to meet the conditions required in Section 14(2) of the PoFA 2012. Going point-by-point:

* 13(2)(a) - PP has not provided me with a statement signed by the vehicle-hire firm confirming the vehicle was on hire to me
* 13(2)(b) - PP has not provided me with a copy of the hire agreement
* 13(2)(c) - PP has not provided me with a copy of the statement of liability
* 14(5)(a, c) - PP has not informed me that any unpaid parking charges may be recovered from the hirer


#3 - No evidence of landowner authority

PP has not provided any evidence of their authority to carry out car park management at the location. They must submit a full and unredacted copy of their contract with the landowner that satisfies the BPA CoP Section 7.


#4 - Insufficient consideration period

I am assuming that the consideration period is 10 minutes based on PP's evidence of the vehicle being parked for 11 minutes. If the contract shows that it is longer, then I challenge PP to provide evidence of the vehicle being parked in excess of the consideration period.

The car park in question is strictly app-only, there is no provision for paying by phone/machine/etc (I ask PP to provide evidence of the signage to confirm this). This means that somebody has to download the app and register before they are even able to begin the process of paying for parking.

During the registration process for the 'Sippi' app, the user is prompted to read and accept its terms and conditions, a copy of which is available at https://sippi.app/policies/terms-app/. This is a 5000 word document, which alone takes 15 minutes to read. 

Per BPA CoP 13.1, a driver must have the chance to consider the terms and conditions before entering into the parking contract. By virtue of being required to pay for the parking at this location, the Sippi app's terms and conditions become a material part of the parking contract.

It is therefore unreasonable for the consideration period at this location to be 10 minutes when it takes at least 15 minutes to consider just one part of the parking contract before deciding whether to be bound by it or not.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on June 07, 2024, 11:24:45 am
The intellectually malnourished eejits are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree. I think they will withdraw once you file your POPLA appeal as they surely know they are on a hiding to nothing and a £35 POPLA fee if they contest your appeal.

Split your POPLA appeal one the PoFA points as follows:

1. Not PoFA compliant (NtH wording and lack of required hire docs)
2. No evidence the hirer was the driver(because of #1 above, #2 applies)
3. BPA CoP failure on signage and lack of consideration time to read Ts&Cs.
4. No evidence of landowner authority.

Lead the POPLA assessor by the nose to each point. Assume it is the tea-boy doing the assessment and never graduated beyond grade 5 or 6.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on June 07, 2024, 10:55:14 am
That should do it. Feel free to show us a draft before submitting.

An obvious point, but worth making: be careful with the wording of point #3, so as not to inadvertently reveal who was driving.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on June 07, 2024, 10:46:47 am
Appeal rejected, unsurprisingly. Tried to have some fun with it.

Quote
As the hirer I decline to provide the details of the driver who, as your letter states, is liable to pay the parking charge. You have not met the conditions of Schedule 4, Section 14 of the PoFA 2012 which would allow liability to pass to the hirer. Happy to go into more detail at POPLA if you want to waste your money and my time by rejecting this appeal!

Quote
Whilst we note your comments and reason for appeal, we can confirm that payment wasnt made for the duration of the stay. Therefore, as your vehicle was parked in contravention of the terms and conditions as advertised on the signage displayed on site, this PCN has been issued to you correctly.

Time for POPLA! Points:

1. Not PoFA compliant, hirer cannot be held liable. (slam dunk on this alone)
2. No evidence of landowner authority. (just interested in reading the contract tbh)
3. My initial argument of 10 mins grace period being insufficient to read and agree to app T&Cs
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 30, 2024, 05:03:58 pm
OP, you do NOT have a Notice to Hirer, you have a Parking Charge Notice! This is a total f***-up on the creditor's part.



A Notice to Hirer must include FOUR additional docs, and the reference to 13(2) was correct:

14(1)...the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.
(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper
;


The creditor must PROVE to the person from whom they're demanding payment that the keeper WAS SERVED with a valid PCN in the first instance and that in response they relieved themselves of liability* - and we've done this point to death - by claiming and proving that the vehicle was being hired under a hiring-agreement.


*- this is not a matter on which the creditor has any say. If the docs are produced in the context specified then the creditor's right to hold the keeper liable no longer exists whether they like it or not.

And if those FOUR docs are not included with a NTH then they have no legal claim against the hirer(even less against you, but we've been over this) because their inclusion is mandatory.

Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 30, 2024, 04:16:12 pm
They are not even relying on PoFA
Indeed, and my suggested appeal says as much - I'm personally in favour of at least making reference to PoFA (and pointing out that they're choosing not to rely on it), to demonstrate that you're well-informed and potentially increase the chances of them giving up and cancelling now rather than pushing the matter to POPLA.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 30, 2024, 03:19:47 pm
They are not even relying on PoFA:

(https://i.imgur.com/5ghco3n.png)

"I am the hirer. I suggest the operator chase the driver" should do it!
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 30, 2024, 03:12:45 pm
Wording sounds good, although to be rock solid - the second point should refer to 14(2) rather than 13(2) right? (13 is for the hire company, 14 is for the hirer?)
You could change this to  "Not serving the additional documents mentioned in 13(2) of the Act, as required by 14(2)(a) of the Act" for clarity (I think I used an old version of my own template above).

Should delay my appeal until 21 days after the issue date so they can't come back and provide the documents within the 'relevant period' (per 14(3) )
You can do for a belt and braces approach. Although the 'relevant period' is "the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor." - there's a good chance those documents haven't been given to the creditor in the first place.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 30, 2024, 02:43:20 pm
Nope, just the attached sheet of paper; no extra evidence added online either.

Wording sounds good, although to be rock solid - the second point should refer to 14(2) rather than 13(2) right? (13 is for the hire company, 14 is for the hirer?)

Should delay my appeal until 21 days after the issue date so they can't come back and provide the documents within the 'relevant period' (per 14(3) ), or did they have to deliver it with the NtH?
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 30, 2024, 01:59:22 pm
Good, you've been named as hirer. I assume they didn't send you any additional documents alongside the PCN? If so, here's an initial suggestion for an appeal:

Dear Sirs

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ______) for vehicle registration mark _______, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the hirer of the vehicle, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"), as you have not met the conditions required to do so, including (but not limited to):

  • Not serving a Notice to Hirer containing all the information required by 14(5) of the Act.
  • Not serving the additional documents required by by 13(2) of the Act.
There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that no further action will be taken against me in relation to this charge. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours...

If appealing online be careful not to tick any boxes etc. that reveal who was driving. Keep an eye on your spam folder and if they don't respond within the 35 days allowed then chase them. See if others have any comments.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 30, 2024, 01:38:58 pm
Alrighty, that took a while but we've finally got a letter addressed directly to me, the hirer. What's our plan of action going forward?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 14, 2024, 02:19:39 pm
+1.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 14, 2024, 02:11:05 pm
I don't want to seem like I'm stifling worthwhile discussion here, but, lest the thread become crowded with "What if..." scenarios, I think it might be wise for us to wait to see what the OP receives from the parking company and then advise accordingly.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 14, 2024, 02:03:57 pm
Are we not getting ahead of ourselves here? The judgment referred to above was made in 1996 and was in reference to a penalty notice issued by an authority.

PoFA was introduced in 2012. According to PoFA, “keeper” means the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper. It has nothing to do with who owns the vehicle and since that judgment, every V5C registration document has printed in large font that the document is NOT proof of ownership.

The judgment referred to above, may apply in the case of a penalty notice issued under bylaws because the archaic reference to "owner" is still used in those instances. In this instance, it is already agreed that there is no need to reference "ownership". Only driver or keeper liability needs to be referenced.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 14, 2024, 01:02:21 pm
There is case law on this point, if I remember correctly involving a car given to a garage for repair, the question being who is the 'owner' for the purposes of TMA? The judgment then examined the issue of 'keeper'.

And it is not the person who simply has day-to-day control, in that case the garage. There has to have been some degree of permanence as regards disposition. 

IMO, the 'keeper' as regards PoFA does not operate as posited.

Just found it:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/francis-v-wandsworth.pdf

It might be convenient to consider that the 'keeper' is whoever has possession at any one time, but IMO as the judgment makes clear it is more complex.

Anyway OP, what may the 'hirer' as in PoFA do? They cannot relieve themselves of liability by naming you as the hirer. They could defend their position in other ways e.g. unless the creditor has sent them a Notice to Hirer(as per PoFA) accompanied by the necessary docs? Probably not, but unless they authorise you to represent them they might not bother to defend their position, it's simpler just to pass on your details* and see what happens.

But what might as opposed to may happen, who knows? Ignorance of PoFA abounds among PPCs and hire companies.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 14, 2024, 12:43:17 pm
To clarify, we're saying that the Finance Company (as the RK) names the Hire Company as the hirer; but the hire company is then unable to recursively name me as the hirer.

This is because the POFA only makes provision for the RK to name a hirer?

Could the Finance Company be able to name me as the hirer directly under guidance from the Hire Company perhaps? Presumably not as there isn't a statement signed by the Finance Company and I per 13(1)(a).

In any case, full wording of the Hire Companies email to me attached - some relevant bits highlighted, sounds like liability will pass from the Finance Company to the Hire Company; and then they'll pass the hirers details to Premier Park (I'm assuming their wording of driver is poorly chosen here, how can they know who was driving).

We'll ignore the fact that a private invoice is not a 'road traffic offence, penalty charge, or fine' for now - one case at a time (I've already said I don't authorise the deduction, will be disputing it, etc etc).

There is no mention of “registered” keeper in PoFA. The Act allows a person/company that, in the course of their business hires/leases vehicles to third parties to discharge their liability for the charge as long as they comply with the requirements as set out in PoFA. I don’t see that recursively doing this is not specifically allowed.

There are two separate issues here. Neither the RK, hire company or creditor can know who the driver was.

Whether you are liable to pay the hire company an administration fee is a completely separate matter. However, based on this additional documentation you have shown us, it is doubtful that they can hold you liable for that. You are likely to be covered under the CRA as you never committed any “offence” nor incurred any “parking fine”.

For now, you just need to understand that the hirer is not liable to the creditor (PPC) for the alleged debt.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 14, 2024, 12:38:32 pm
Let's see what you receive and a response can be drafted accordingly. The hire company may well name you as driver - I've seen this happen in cases where the hire agreement states that the hirer agrees to not let anyone else drive the vehicle. Even then, though, the hire company have no way of knowing who was actually driving at the material time.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 14, 2024, 12:30:46 pm
The hirer does not become the registered keeper but they are the day to day keeper for the purposes of PoFA.

The hire/lease company discharges their liability as keeper as soon as they give the creditor the hirers details AND include a copy of the documents in PoFA 13(2). The creditor cannot come back at a later date and try to recover the charge from the RK.

If the creditor wishes to hold the hirer (day to day keeper) liable for the charge in the absence of the drivers identity, they must then send an NtH to the hirer that complies with the requirements of PoFA section 14. It is at this point that 99.9% of all creditors manage to fail to comply with the strict requirements of PoFA to hold the hirer liable for the charge.

At all times the driver remains liable for the charge. As the creditor inevitably fails to transfer that liability in the overwhelming majority of cases of PCNs involving hire/lease vehicles, the creditor can only hope that the hirer is one of the majority of hirers who are not aware of their rights and protections and reveals themselves to be both the hirer AND the driver.

This is why a PCN issued to a hire/lease vehicle is considered to be a “golden ticket”. As long as the hirer does not reveal the identity of the driver, there is no legal recourse for the creditor to recover the charge from the hirer. The creditor cannot presume or infer that the hirer was the driver.

Nothing above stops the creditor from trying to intimidate the hirer into paying the charge. These ex-clamper, unregulated private parking companies will, in most cases, threaten the hirer through debt collector letters and even initiating a court claim in the hope that the hirer is low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will not only pay the charge but also pay the fake added debt recovery fee/damages.

As long as the hirer has received the advice and understands that they cannot be held liable for the charge if the creditor has failed to fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA AND have not already dobbed themselves in the mire by revealing themselves to have also been the driver, they won’t be paying a penny to the ex-clamper cowboys (Hansard).
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 14, 2024, 12:18:55 pm
To clarify, we're saying that the Finance Company (as the RK) names the Hire Company as the hirer; but the hire company is then unable to recursively name me as the hirer.

This is because the POFA only makes provision for the RK to name a hirer?

Could the Finance Company be able to name me as the hirer directly under guidance from the Hire Company perhaps? Presumably not as there isn't a statement signed by the Finance Company and I per 13(1)(a).

In any case, full wording of the Hire Companies email to me attached - some relevant bits highlighted, sounds like liability will pass from the Finance Company to the Hire Company; and then they'll pass the hirers details to Premier Park (I'm assuming their wording of driver is poorly chosen here, how can they know who was driving).

We'll ignore the fact that a private invoice is not a 'road traffic offence, penalty charge, or fine' for now - one case at a time (I've already said I don't authorise the deduction, will be disputing it, etc etc).


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Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 14, 2024, 11:13:38 am
I'm not disagreeing with that. If the OP receives a notice in his name he can appeal on the basis that he has no liability for the matter.

I'm not sure how any of this runs at odds with what I said, which is that if the company name the OP as the hirer, the parking company are likely to write to him.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 14, 2024, 10:18:50 am
The registered keeper may relieve themselves of liability by invoking 4(7) which is to provide the creditor with specified documents showing that the vehicle was on hire etc. This is the RK's defence.

This right applies to the registered keeper only.

There is no such provision available to the hirer under para. 14. Therefore the person named by the registered keeper who has signed a statement accepting liability cannot pass their liability to anyone else under PoFA because the Act doesn't allow this as a defence.

They could pay and sue their hirer, they could authorise their hirer to appeal on their behalf but they cannot offload their liability using any provision within PoFA,

In my opinion.

If someone could point me to such a provision - without saying that for the purposes of PoFA the hirer under the 'hire agreement' referred to at 4(7) suddenly becomes the effective RK under para. 4 and therefore entitled to those rights, for which there is no legal basis IMO, then I should appreciate it.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 14, 2024, 09:39:47 am
I'm not sure why you believe the above prevents the hire company from naming the OP as the hirer.

Whether that leads to the hire company being able to recover the charge from him is another matter (it almost certainly doesn't, given how often all parties involved usually misunderstand and mi's-apply the relevant legislation).

Edit: Just seen your edit. I agree that the parking company will be unlikely to be able to hold the OP liable, but the hire company are likely to name him as the hirer, and he is likely to receive a notice in his capacity as hirer.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 14, 2024, 09:31:58 am
@DWMB2, IMO no, and here are the legal references and reasoning which lead to this conclusion:

PoFA is a unique piece of statute which interferes in a centuries-old principle that only the parties to a contract have rights and liabilities under said contract.

In short:
4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

...except

(7)The right under this paragraph is subject to paragraph 13 (which provides for the right not to apply in certain circumstances in the case of a hire vehicle).


However.

14(1)If—

(a)the creditor is ......unable to exercise the right to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges mentioned in the notice to keeper, and

(b)the conditions mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) below are met,

the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.


Not transfer of liability, but a separate stand-alone prospective right available to a creditor against the hirer.

In my opinion..

..this does not create a legal structure which permits liability to be passed ad infinitum like a parcel.

Liability as regards reliance upon PoFA ends at the person who is specified by the registered keeper as the hirer. *

OP, in short:
The hirer of the car on this occasion has no liability under PoFA and the creditor cannot pursue you as such....but they can pursue the hire company who cannot offload their liability using PoFA.
So, no NTH to you - a purely PoFA inspired creation.

You as hirer from the PoFA 'hire company' have NO liability under PoFA, but the creditor could take a punt on you being the driver, especially if the hire company puts your name in the frame.

What email accompanied the NTK sent by the hirer company?

..which isn't to say that the creditor wouldn't be stupid enough to send you some hybrid PCN claiming that they have rights under PoFA! But cross this bridge later.

*- unlike local authority law which specifically includes the hirer as a prospective 'keeper' in its definitions.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 14, 2024, 08:54:41 am
Quote
Presumably I should expect a NtH in the post later this week? Will report back.
Your hire firm should name you as the hirer, leading to you receiving a notice to hirer in due course, yes.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 14, 2024, 08:38:46 am
The NtK is addressed to a finance company (not the hire company), the letter we have seen thus far was emailed to me by the hire company on the 11th.
Presumably I should expect a NtH in the post later this week? Will report back.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 14, 2024, 12:39:07 am
…vehicle is a short term hire car, no sticker left on windscreen…

This is now becoming convoluted. In your opening post, you stated:

Recently the recipient of a parking ticket where they have evidence of my vehicle

Call me weird, but (as the keeper)

If the vehicle was hired, who is the NtK addressed to? Has the hire company simply forwarded the NtK to you? Can you see why this is now confusing?

In 99.99% of PCNs issued to hire/lease vehicles, they are what are known as “golden tickets” because the PPCs fail to follow the strict requirements of PoFA to be able to transfer liability from the driver to the hirer… as long as the hirer does not identify the driver.

So, because you now mention that the vehicle was a hire car, that would mean that the original NtK would have been sent to the hire company who are usually the registered keeper. Please tell us who is the NtK you have shown addressed to. The hire company as the keeper or the hirer, in which case it is an NtH.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 13, 2024, 07:05:14 pm
Another potential angle, the postcode specified in the NtK is E20 1BA (Cheering Lane) but the vehicle was parked at E20 1FN (Scarlet Close), a number of streets away. Each cul-de-sac is private land/parking, connected by the main council-owned highways with standard council permit parking (ie. they are not connected/joined in any way, nor is the entire area private land).

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Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 13, 2024, 05:11:12 pm
Thanks all for the responses so far. Regarding 'case law', poor choice of wording on my part considering this is a legal forum - I'm merely suggesting an extra appeal point that may or may not be successful, a brief search around hasn't shown up any instances of people using the time taken to register for an app as an appeal point before (maybe there's a reason why!).

I'll quieten down and leave it to the experts from here on out; as requested a less redacted letter is attached, vehicle is a short term hire car, no sticker left on windscreen, evidential image of the sign attached too (it's quite high...).

Don't have exact timings as there's no ANPR etc, but images in the evidence pack range from 13:45:59 to 13:56:34 (including lots of photos of the vehicles blank windscreen, can't see the VIN in it if that matters? example attached).

After parking shortly prior to the timestamp in the first image, the driver downloaded the app in question, signed up for an account, but was unable to successfully pay for parking. This is because they had rejected the apps 'precise location' request as they felt this was an invasion of their privacy (GDPR necessity etc etc), especially as a location code is provided on the sign (and inputable into the app). They have a screen recording of the app malfunctioning without this permission, timestamped at 13:55 (ie. during the evidential period). The driver departed later that day.

On a subsequent day, the driver of the vehicle parked in the same area, and attempted to use the app; again it malfunctioned without the 'precise location' permission but they decided to part with their privacy to avoid getting a parking ticket; ironic really. May be a stretch but potentially it shows a genuine attempt to pay was made considering a driver later did for that vehicle?

Thanks





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Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: b789 on May 13, 2024, 12:33:54 am
The only way a county court judgment can apply to case law is if there is a successful appeal and, even then, it would only be “persuasive”, not “binding” on the lower court. To make a judgment binding, it would have to be from a higher court or more likely, the Supreme Court.

The parts of the NtK you have shown only provide a limited amount of the necessary information to check if the keeper can be liable for the charge. By redacting the dates, you are making it difficult to assist.

There are technical defects in the NtK that mean that the NtK is not PoFA compliant but that is not likely to help you unless you manage to persuade a POPLA assessor of this point or, more likely, a judge. The sign you have shown is also defective in that it does not adequately bring the £100 charge to the notice of the driver. It is lost in a wall of text.

If the PCN was issued for failing to “pay in time” but the amount actually paid more than covered the period of parking, then it would, in fact, be a penalty, which is not allowed.

You are dealing with Premier Park who are a notorious firm of ex-clamper thugs but easily warded off if they try to take this all the way to a court claim.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: sparxy on May 13, 2024, 12:26:31 am
Quote
If the matter does get to court, what will matter is what happened in practice, not what could have happened in theory. So far, we don't know what actually happened.

It is entirely plausible that the company behind the app will have every single event timestamped. A SAR might get those, if they are of any benefit at all, if the company plays ball with the UK or EU GDPR legislation...
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: DWMB2 on May 12, 2024, 09:14:44 pm
Be nice to contribute some new 'case law' to the parking fine fighting community.
From what you've shared so far there doesn't appear to be very much that is overly novel about the case. Consideration periods as set out in the relevant codes of practice are not law, and there have been many cases that have argued that the time allowed by the parking company was insufficient - how successful these arguments are depends on the circumstances of each case.

This (in theory) significantly increases the time required to pay for parking, as you have to get internet connectivity, download an app, register for it, and then actually go through the payment flow.
If the matter does get to court, what will matter is what happened in practice, not what could have happened in theory. So far, we don't know what actually happened.
Title: Re: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: H C Andersen on May 12, 2024, 08:53:49 pm
At ** on ** the driver entered the car park and left at *** having paid £**/not paid etc.

OP, pl just tell us what happened. Then we can look at 'why' after we know the 'what'.

Pl reinstate everything in the PCN other than personal details.
Title: 10m grace period, app-only payment, registering requires agreeing to 5k word T&Cs...
Post by: Clear-Egg-673 on May 12, 2024, 08:20:33 pm
Recently the recipient of a parking ticket where they have evidence of my vehicle parked 11 minutes apart, exceeding the (presumably) 10 minute grace period. Not my first rodeo, know all the standard tricks from PePiPoo, MSE, etc.

Call me weird, but (as the keeper) I'm interested in exploring the novelty that this car park is strictly app-only (no machine, no call/text, etc) which means one has to create an account with some third party application before they're able to pay.

This (in theory) significantly increases the time required to pay for parking, as you have to get internet connectivity, download an app, register for it, and then actually go through the payment flow.

Of particular interest is the classic wall-of-text terms and conditions, which prospective payees have to agree to when creating an account; surely the grace period has to account for the time taken to diligently read and digest these terms (google says 5k words is ~15m of reading). In my mind, they form part of the parking contract (in conjunction with the sign wording) as there is no other way to pay.

I'm lucky enough that the prospect of losing at all of the appeal/court stages and having to pay a couple hundred pounds isn't too big of a financial hit; reckon it's worth a shot? Be nice to contribute some new 'case law' to the parking fine fighting community.


NTK and signage attached, don't see anything wrong with the NTK; the clarity of the PCN amount on the sign is a little unclear - looks more like an icon than an amount, in an attempt to stand out it actually blends in more.

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