Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: let1less on May 12, 2024, 01:59:54 pm

Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 10:07:42 pm
I would recommend you send what I drafted and we wait and see what they come back with.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: let1less on May 16, 2024, 09:17:25 pm
i have also looked on Teignbridge council planning map and that little bit of road is marked as Seymour Rd

even though the houses on GSV are down as Rundle Rd.


I have been back and done some measuring and took some more photos
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWRal3Ue.jpg&hash=ca7a7e787c2cf39774a180cae6f5a6d41c8b2b33) (https://imgur.com/WRal3Ue)

This shows how deep the gulley is.

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4EMcgFE.jpg&hash=d753aad2ae78611c4e2b65bb1e2a4e86e2dcf0ea) (https://imgur.com/4EMcgFE)
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F97cvJQU.jpg&hash=f9673e820f8340d5b69863b527a8be939de73508) (https://imgur.com/97cvJQU)

this picture shows :- pink line edge of gulley
                      silver line 50 cm from edge of gulley
                      the blue circle on the picture with no car is the exact same place as the blue circle which i have added to ceo's picture also i have
measured the number plate of the mini which is 52cm which gives you some perspective.

I placed the car in the same position as exact as i could to the original photo and the silver lines are under the car.

Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: cp8759 on May 16, 2024, 09:02:00 pm
Quote from: let1less on May 16, 2024, 08:44:49 pm
can i appeal with multiple points, such as wrong location and also measurement from wrong starting point. ie ( edge of road ).
Yes you can submit as many arguments as you want.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: let1less on May 16, 2024, 08:44:49 pm
can i appeal with multiple points, such as wrong location and also measurement from wrong starting point. ie ( edge of road ).
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: H C Andersen on May 16, 2024, 12:26:40 pm
If Rundle and Seymour are entered separately into GSV neither gets highlighted.

The road markings aren't definitive sadly - have similar examples in my area.

However, Postcode Finder does list the various flats in Somerset Lodge under Rundle, not Seymour.

I'd cut and paste from this official record to support or lead the argument because the council's likely to argue the toss regarding GSV alone.





Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: cp8759 on May 16, 2024, 12:25:42 am
@let1less the location is definitely wrong:

(https://i.imgur.com/8cWFk9E.png)

Draft representation:

Dear Devon County Council,

My car was not parked on Seymour Road, my car was parked outside 13 Rundle Road, before getting to Seymour Road one would have to go past my car, then past 13 Rundle Road, 11 Rundle Road, then 9A Rundle Road, and one would then find the junction between Rundle Road and Seymour Road. In fact I was parked some 240 feet from the junction with Seymour Road.

It follows that no contravention could have occurred on Seymour Road, therefore the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Make sure to send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: Phantomcrusader on May 12, 2024, 05:13:47 pm
If the location on the PCN is wrong it would kill the penalty dead. The council will have a mapping system so include in your challenge that you believe you were parked inside the boundary of Rundle Road and not in Seymour Road and again, if they disagree require them to provide evidence from their mapping system that the location falls under Seymour Road.

When you challenge make sure you upload any photos that support your challenge such as ones that show the hidden gulley and worn edge of carriageway and a ruler on the carriageway illustarting what 50cm from the edge looks like compared to where your rear wheel was.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: let1less on May 12, 2024, 05:06:03 pm
Quote from: Phantomcrusader on May 12, 2024, 04:28:00 pm
The law does not require any signage so that is a losing argument. Your best bet if the location is correct, might be to argue that the edge of the carriageway is not where the stone wall is because there is a drainage gulley between your car and the wall that is mostly hidden by debris and vegetation. The edge of the carriageway is next to the gulley and you do not believe that the rear wheel of your car is more than 50cm away from the edge of the carriageway/gulley and if the council disagree ask them to provide evidence that the CEO measured the distance between the rear wheel of your car and the edge because it only takes a CEO judgement error of 1mm for the contravention to have not occurred.

Thank you also Phantomcrusader

I might go around tonight and mark with some chalk 50cm, take some photo's and see what it looks like,
I also notice there is a plastic bollard lying in the gutter, which looks like was in the ground further out.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: let1less on May 12, 2024, 05:01:01 pm
Quote from: baroudeur on May 12, 2024, 04:01:18 pm
GSV suggests that the vehicle was (only just) in Seymour Road?

https://tinyurl.com/42krm8um

Thank you for your reply barouder, would wrong location be a defense, because if you travel further up the hill there is a property
on the left with the address 9 Rundle Rd, then you also come to the white line junction with Seymour Rd which goes left to right.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: Phantomcrusader on May 12, 2024, 04:28:00 pm
The law does not require any signage so that is a losing argument. Your best bet if the location is correct, might be to argue that the edge of the carriageway is not where the stone wall is because there is a drainage gulley between your car and the wall that is mostly hidden by debris and vegetation. The edge of the carriageway is next to the gulley and you do not believe that the rear wheel of your car is more than 50cm away from the edge of the carriageway/gulley and if the council disagree ask them to provide evidence that the CEO measured the distance between the rear wheel of your car and the edge because it only takes a CEO judgement error of 1mm for the contravention to have not occurred.
Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: baroudeur on May 12, 2024, 04:01:18 pm
GSV suggests that the vehicle was (only just) in Seymour Road?

https://tinyurl.com/42krm8um

Title: Re: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: guest17 on May 12, 2024, 02:56:32 pm
OP-I've attached the Council's photos:-

Mike

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Devon County Council - Newton Abbot - PCN Code 26
Post by: let1less on May 12, 2024, 01:59:54 pm
YD 17344511A  WJ13FMO

A family member has received a PCN (https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYI39UPh.jpg&hash=57f2a7fc3bec5a3da56681ed203c69ace5ce0761) (https://imgur.com/YI39UPh)


(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVfOlLuz.jpg&hash=ee2047dd6e7c7748bbe472557f285528d7ec2d2a) (https://imgur.com/VfOlLuz)


 on 4/5/2024 while parking to go to work
at this location  https://maps.app.goo.gl/GgMNKzpec8gnd1k58

they normally park in  this area but unfortunately fell foul of this
code 26, " Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking place.

i have lived in this area for over 50 years and have never heard about this "Special enforcement area" but on further investigation have found two signs which are at the two main entrances to this area , here (https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNe9ydFD.png&hash=933159f5f7347973c8b961e60452533d1524bd47) (https://imgur.com/Ne9ydFD)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4SRNu6kSwUgg9yYs9

and here (https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fw48cHi6.png&hash=4df40aca6a333d10b1f119a0ae881dd115b461f9) (https://imgur.com/w48cHi6)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SxHrNzoT6RU3gBX6A

But there is another way into this so called "enforcement area" here (https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FM44zIZ3.jpg&hash=abe1b75431904ac388d93cbcbb1e3043565ad9e0) (https://imgur.com/M44zIZ3)


https://maps.app.goo.gl/be33h3Zmc2yMRBDj9

we live on the side of town were you would use the entrance into Rundle Road and as you can see there are no signs informing you of the enforcement area,
also on the PCN the location specifies that the car was parked in Seymour Road  which is wrong they were parked in Rundle Road.

Also at the location in question there is a deep gulley were you have to be careful not to get your wheel in or you can bottom out your car quite easily, these images don't do it justice.
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlTw1HX7.jpg&hash=ed69cdcf2bdfcd643b56dc42152c7b45761f7df5) (https://imgur.com/lTw1HX7)
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdF0Dkse.jpg&hash=fdfdad4acc4bcc18529b5ec718f717c53182f8ad) (https://imgur.com/dF0Dkse)
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJ3F8TN8.jpg&hash=309c635712dc301e43ee112d1ff786a25b128084) (https://imgur.com/J3F8TN8)

so therefore where is the actual edge of the road, now admittedly they could of got a bit closer than they did, but having been stuck in this gulley before they have possibly been more careful and kept out a bit too much.

So therefore my question is do we have a case to appeal, 1. on lack of signage.

2. wrong location.
 
3. cant determine where the edge of the road is.
[/list]