Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Simon321456 on May 10, 2024, 04:56:46 pm
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I got a letter thru this morning, again not addressed to anyone but 'Whom it may concern' stating that the previous letter was sent in error and that there is no outstanding balance
Just checking..
A letter was received "to whom ...".
A further letter has been received, in effect cancelling that.
However, a further letter had previously heen received elsewhere (and passed on) which was addressed to "Mr Bloggs, some nearby address". This seems to remain potentially outstanding.
Was this also requesting a payment and if so was it the same etc.
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OP---this Council watches these sites religiously. We have been faced with downloads of complete threads from Pepipoo when attending adjudication in the hope that the Council can sway the adjudicator.
They tried it on with that letter and got caught wanting.
I wonder how much money they have pocketed with that little scam?
Mike
That's absolutely disgusting
Half tempted to raise this with our local council rep, she's extremely responsive
But obviously, probably doesn't make sense to poke any bears
I'm just glad its not something I need to continue to worry about
Thanks again to all for your ultra helpful contributions in this thread, it certainly went a long way to putting my mind at ease. Much appreciated
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OP---this Council watches these sites religiously. We have been faced with downloads of complete threads from Pepipoo when attending adjudication in the hope that the Council can sway the adjudicator.
They tried it on with that letter and got caught wanting.
I wonder how much money they have pocketed with that little scam?
Mike
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UPDATE!!
I mentioned that I actually got TWO letters, one addressed to me but referencing a completely different address where the contravention occurred
I got a letter thru this morning, again not addressed to anyone but 'Whom it may concern' stating that the previous letter was sent in error and that there is no outstanding balance
So! A somewhat boring, if happy resolution. Apologies this kinda fizzled out 😁😁
I shall of course update it I get anything else, but this has to be the end of it, right? RIGHT?! 😅
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I think it would be useful to the OP to know when they are 'in the clear' because the council are too late to issue an FPN, partly for their peace of mind, and partly because anything the council tries after that can be countered with a request for a copy of a non-existent FPN.
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True, but it's merely a piece of correspondencec to a non legal person saying "hand over some cash or we'll send a random invoice to this address".
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Interesting but their request for money is complete balls.
They have to take action under the TMA 2004 which leads to a fixed penalty notice after a request to clear the highway is ignored.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/part/5/crossheading/skips-scaffolding-building-materials-and-excavations-charges-for-occupation-of-highway-etc
Mike
Thinking about the way PCNs work (the council only get one go, and they have to serve it promptly), is there similarly a time limit for this legislation after which the council can no longer issue a FPN?
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I wonder if the council may be really trying it on by sending the letter to other adjacent properties as well, more in the hope that someone will fess up, enabling them to pursue it?
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If it's kosher, there will be a record on their website, so have a look, quoting your PCN Number and car reg. number
There is no PCN number, nor reference of a 'Penalty Charge Notice' anywhere and I'm damned if I'm giving them my car reg for something that has nothing to do with my poor car. They're already trying to charge my house, they're not bullying any more of my inanimate objects!
It states "if payment not received, an invoice will be raised" so I'm just gonna see if that happens and take it from there
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Legit, just managed badly?
Somebody who was very curious could use a PC they have no connection with in any way, definitely have no payment information in any "wallet" or auto fill and scan it.
I hadn't registered the point about "this email". That leaves an obvious question of how an email address was both obtained and picked.
Incompetence seems most likely.
And the fact that its a letter and not an email ;D
I'll give the scanning thing a whirl
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If it's kosher, there will be a record on their website, so have a look, quoting your PCN Number and car reg. number
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Legit, just managed badly?
Somebody who was very curious could use a PC they have no connection with in any way, definitely have no payment information in any "wallet" or auto fill and scan it.
I hadn't registered the point about "this email". That leaves an obvious question of how an email address was both obtained and picked.
Incompetence seems most likely.
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Did you receive this by post or e-mail?
The 'letter'says
Pay ... within three working days of the date of this e-mail.
If it came by post one would expect it to say 'of this letter'.
If it came by post was there a date on the post mark? Or was it delivered by hand?
I didn't spot that
It came by post, unsure whether hand delivered or not as I didn't keep the envelope. Foolishly, in hindsight
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Did you receive this by post or e-mail?
The 'letter'says
Pay ... within three working days of the date of this e-mail.
If it came by post one would expect it to say 'of this letter'.
If it came by post was there a date on the post mark? Or was it delivered by hand?
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Yes, it strikes as somewhat unlikely they'd go to such measures but the whole thing is puzzling. If not, are they just hoping whomever was responsible for the materials pops a head above the parapet? And if they do not, next action is direct contact?
Just weird that there would be no warnings or contact before this level of escalation
It does tally though, the charge to suspend a parking bay is £51 per day
Legit, just managed badly?
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The typical QR scam is fake stickers on parking machines.
It is a bit specific, you could attempt to derive the payment amount from the information on the council websitem
It doesn't have a particular "feel" for a scam. It would take someeffort to be driving round the streets looking for piles of material and posting off letters to adjacent properties.
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Morning all
Huge, huge thanks for all the replies, its very much appreciated
To confirm, the items in question were removed immediately upon receipt of the letter
@H C Anderson - correct, not addressed to anyone, only the street address
@MMV Redux - again, thanks for taking the time to point out another case as precedent, and highlighting how odd this whole thing appears to be
Is there a chance that this is some kind of scam? Clutching at straws potentially, but now that I think more about it and looking at the letters (there were 2x, one for a random address....) whilst all of the details on the letters are correct, they are not on letterheaded paper? The letter is in black and white, as opposed to the normal colours that appear on council letters
There is a QR code to scan and make payment, but anyone could do that, right?
I'm going to see what, if anything, further happens from here on in and update accordingly
Thanks a million once again, this whole thread is a huge comfort
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Sorry phantomcrusader---no contact!. The Council don't know and the OP won't tell!
Mike
Yes that makes sense for now. Should the council chase the OP directly for payment then the council need to answer the questions.
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Sorry phantomcrusader---no contact!. The Council don't know and the OP won't tell!
Mike
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The letter completely fails to advise what law has been allegedly contravened. Require the council to identify the law they accuse you of having contravened and to point you in the direction of where the fees they seek are prescribed in law. They cannot charge unless the law allows them to.
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OP, is the letter addressed to a person by name or an address?
Your posts do not suggest that a licence to deposit materials had been obtained therefore I assume one was not.
I am shocked by the letter. As I posted, unauthorised - and therefore by definition unsafe - deposits on the highway are potentially lethal. A council officer from the highways authority should have been knocking on doors to find out what's what and then taken proportionate action. But to tacitly allow the obstruction to continue providing that someone paid for a parking bay suspension is as laughable as it is worrying.
The council's 'debt recovery procedure' won't do anything without a name and unless you personally deposited the materials then it cannot be you.
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OP--This one should give you an idea of the process to be undertaken by the Council:-
https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/news/feb-2023/seven-kings-resident-hammered-with-court-fine-after-illegally-storing-building-materials-on-road/
Your Council have tried to dun money through an abuse of process:-
1) It was never anything to do with a parking bay suspension--come on!
2) Their calculation of the amount due using a spurious bay suspension is risible.
3) They have a duty to act properly using the appropriate legislation --they haven't.
4) Their intention to use debt recovery processes on non payment is likewise ultra vires.
5) A licence usually costs £50-£100 for a number of days--so IMO that amounts to the Council's loss albeit without the penal element of a FPN.
But we obviousy have a "fishing" letter to identify the "miscreants" so my view is that you clear the highway asap and wait for any follow up.
Since the "fishing" letter isn't an instruction to clear the highway then any FPN is stymied IMO.
If you do pay anything I would report the Council to the LA Ombudsman on the basis of maladministration. They are,in my view,in abuse of process by ignoring their responsibilities under the TMA ect legislation to process a FPN and even more so by inventing a fairy story on costs.
In all of this, pay close attention to what HCA says, he used to be a senior Council official.
Mike
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Realistically I think the householders options are either:-
- Send some money
- Totally ignore it
I would expect the latter to possibly generate some noise.
If the householder happens to be involved in any way lying to the authority may be a bad move. Equally they may want to consider that forums posts are not unknown to be used in both civil and criminal proceedings. It may be the case that an appropriately framed enquiry could be used to force disclosure of an account owner.
What (if anything) is received next should govern action. But until they move from fishing to something specific, perhaps making an actual allegation against an individual under some regulation I would do nothing.
(The next stage might be the issue of an invoice to whoever happens to be the council tax payer at some property close to the materials. I fail to see any contractual relationship).
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@slapdash that is an absolutely outstanding response. Splendid work
@H C Andersen Somebody has moved the materials now, yes. I can swear in court that I did not leave the materials there but I would wager that nobody applied for any permits, licences or insurance
What would you fine folk say my next action is, do nothing? The letter gives a deadline of 15th by which to make payment but of course, it isn't addressed to anyone
@MMV Redux cheers for that but would you mind highlighting where on that page refers to a penalty notice AFTER a request to move? This is the first and only thing that we've been sent
But interestingly, I was chatting to a neighbour who had a loft conversion done and they had building materials in the road outside their house too. In their case, the council called the trader's (had a sign up) and gave them 24hrs notice to shift it before they'd issue a fine
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Interesting but their request for money is complete balls.
They have to take action under the TMA 2004 which leads to a fixed penalty notice after a request to clear the highway is ignored.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/part/5/crossheading/skips-scaffolding-building-materials-and-excavations-charges-for-occupation-of-highway-etc
Mike
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An invoice made out to 'Whom it may concern'. Worth saving for the grandchildren!
Anyway, 'the materials were left on the road,', but by whom were they left?
If you, then (and there's no point dancing around this) you've been very foolish because you need a licence AND insurance cover for this, B&H Council refer to £10 million, and your home insurer would disclaim any liability. Frankly, the parking suspension issue is of secondary importance. If there's a fatal or serious accident which occurs because of this you could lose your house.
If by a contractor on your behalf, then they should know better. B&H refer to 'professional' contractors knowing what's required, and they do. So who was used?
This is very serious and potentially financially devastating for you, or whoever was the person who commissioned this act.
But if a licence is held then the issue is parking suspension. But there couldn't/shouldn't be a licence without a suspension?! If you had any hand in this then IMO get it moved. At least check if whoever left the materials has a licence from the council for this purpose.
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Some unknown person should have applied for a license to store building materials. It seems that random person didn't. Maybe it was me renovating a house a bit down the road
Currently the authoriry have taken umbage and decided to invoice the fee to a property under threat of enforcement via their debt recovery.
It is somewhat unclear as to how they can successfully take out any form of civil claim against that entity.
They might be quite pleased if somebody said to them "I got it delivered".
If the property failed to respond, which unless it suddenly gains some form of sentience it would be the case then they need to find some way of assigning culpability to an individual. Once they have done that an owner or occupier might have a better idea of how to react.
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Good afternoon
First post, so thanks in advance to anyone that takes the time to read and/or reply
Apologies in advance also if I've raised incorrectly or am missing anything
I've received a charge for having 'building materials' on the 'highway'
We do not have a front garden and as opposed to leaving the building materials on the pavement, obstructing what is a busy street (school & nursery nearby) the materials were left on the road, in front of my house and where I would normally park my car (that I have a paid-for residents permit for)
Letter below
I haven't received any warnings or notifications, this is the first I've heard of it. Its not addressed to me by name, just to my street address.
Do I have any options here pls?
Thanks in advance
(https://i.imgur.com/1auzmAn.png)