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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: just glad of help on May 10, 2024, 10:33:20 am

Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on July 05, 2024, 06:46:59 am
thanks so much everyone will let you know outcome
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: H C Andersen on July 04, 2024, 09:34:33 pm
OP, let's focus on the central issues pl.

Their evidence is in the form of hand-held photos. It therefore follows that:


There is not a sign in evidence visible to disabled drivers stating the Ts and Cs, contrary to the BPA CoP, compliance with which is a prerequisite for obtaining keeper details from the DVLA and grounds which POPLA may consider. As this sign is not in evidence, the assessor must disregard the operator's claims regarding the driver's liability regarding strict compliance with conditions which are not in evidence.

If the assessor accepts that there is no evidence as to the existence of Ts and Cs ('for parking which can be viewed without the driver needing to leave the vehicle, in order for drivers with a disability to be able to make an informed decision on whether to park at the premises') then there is no evidence to support the creditor's claim. The presence or otherwise of signs elsewhere on the site is not relevant in this respect.

I would stick with main issues.

Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 04, 2024, 08:14:07 pm
It's section 16.2 of the BPA CoP that has not been complied with.

16.2 You must ensure that at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking can be viewed without the driver needing to leave the vehicle, in order for drivers with a disability to be able to make an informed decision on whether to park at the premises.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on July 04, 2024, 07:52:25 pm
According to the law, it is a consideration period
"According to [___] of the BPA Code of Practice"

In the section where you mention their failure to provide a sign that is legible to a disabled motorist without them needing to leave the car, I'd say there's no harm in again referring to the relevant section of the Code of Practice.

It also makes it difficult to turn into to park and dangerous.Probably a Health and Safety issue.
I'd be tempted to leave this sentence out. Whilst it's no doubt a fair point, it's arguably not directly related to whether or not the parking charge is owed. It's perhaps better to focus on the point immediately preceeding it, that the positioning of the bollards makes it difficult for wheelchair users to manoeuvre around their cars.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 04, 2024, 07:36:24 pm
OK, so assuming you sent the original POPLA appeal as advised, you need to file your response to the operators comments within the deadline. This can only be done online using their web portal.

It is good enough to go unless anyone else wants to add comment. It is well below the maximum character limit.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on July 04, 2024, 06:41:57 pm
No this was just put here for your help opinion , it was in response to premiers comments to my original letter to POPLA
thanks
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 04, 2024, 04:53:16 pm
Has that already been sent?
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on July 04, 2024, 04:25:22 pm
This was my response for Popla

"Premier Parking state, “The hatched markings are in place to allow disabled motorists additional space to manoeuvre around the vehicle and are used by motorists on both sides. They do not form part of the marked bay.
By the Appellant parking not wholly within a bay and over these markings, the vehicle was further causing an obstruction.”

No part of my vehicle was on the hatched markings, as evidenced by Premier Parking’s supplied photo. Therefore, my car was neither an obstruction to any other vehicle or to any other wheelchair user.


Premier Parking state, “motorists are given a reasonable grace period to check the terms and conditions and to leave the site before a PCN is issued.”

This is both inaccurate, misleading, and discriminatory. According to the law, it is a consideration period; not a grace period, and because there were no terms and conditions displayed at the disabled parking bays so therefore were no notices for me to consider and thus no contract was entered into. To add further insult, to expect me to leave the site because I had not read a notice that was ultimately not visible from the disable parking bay, is wholly discriminatory against myself as a disabled person.


Premier Parking states, “It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions and ensure that they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.”

A stated in my response above, there were no terms and conditions at all, that were visible from anywhere near the disabled bay in question. This is against regulations / law, that require such notices to be observable from the disabled bay itself. As such, no terms and conditions could be read or accepted, and thus no contract entered into.

The pictures provided by Premier Parking to illustrate positioning of such notices, are actually from 2017 and 2019, as evidenced by the fact they show Mothercare which closed down over 5 years ago, These photos do not portray the positioning of the signs as they are today. In reality, the nearest notice, from my subsequent research, is half way across the centre of the carpark, as shown by my own photos that were supplied previously, in a location that can easily be missed, is dangerous in the middle of the road  and is in no way observable from the disabled car parking bay as legally required as facing opposite way.

For Premier Parking to insist that a disabled person should hunt around the car park for these notices, is both disgusting and discriminatory.
It is actually the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the terms and conditions of parking are visible from a disabled parking space. Premier Parking have quite clearly failed in this regard.


Premier Parking did not respond at all to the fact they have breached the BPA CoP in that the disabled parking bay does not meet expected practice, as well as fail the Equality Act.
They offered no explanation for why they failed to provide the 1200mm of additional hatched space for access for wheelchair users as required by law as well as rear hatchings. If their parking bay had met these guidelines, I would have been able to park within the bay, without my tyre on the yellow line because I would have had ample space to operate my wheelchair to access both sides of the car? However, this was not the case.

Further more, no explanation was given by Premier Parking for why bollardss have been placed on the line of a disabled parking space that should have had 1200mm of space and did not. To place bollards there, and then penalise people for having to position their vehicle accordingly so that doors can be opened and wheelchairs removed, is both ridiculous and discriminatory against wheelchair users.
It also makes it difficult to turn into to park and dangerous.Probably a Health and Safety issue.

I have protected characteristics and have been discriminated against because Premier Parking have treated me less favourably than it treats others, by providing a disabled parking space that does not comply with the requirements of both those stipulated in the guidance in the Equality Act and in the BPA’s own CoP".


Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 04, 2024, 03:42:42 pm
Please show us your POPLA appeal before you send it.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on July 04, 2024, 03:25:43 pm
Hello everyone thankyou
no I havent written to the newspaper, ive had enough struggle writing POPLA reply Im chronically ill so in bed most of time and neurologically struggle.

 B789 Premier have not complied with the BPA sign readable from the car, they sent photos from over 5 years ago which are not there today and I sent photo showing this to POPLA originally showing no sign and so saying there is no contract
I have complained to the BPA but no response as yet but did originally try to get out of it.
I did send details of my PCN too the council for premier to decide apparently even though they are overall responsible

The Rookie My POPLA appeal response to Premiers comments on my submission was there at the beginning of this post for comments, and teh original in this thread.

thanks again everyone
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2024, 02:06:50 pm
Have Premier Parking complied with BPA CoP section 16.2?

You must ensure that at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking can be viewed without the driver needing to leave the vehicle, in order for drivers with a disability to be able to make an informed decision on whether to park at the premises.

Additionally, the parking bay used is not only non-standard when it comes to disabled parking, it is even more restrictive than a normal parking bay for able bodied motorists by having the bollards located on the edge of the bay where even an able bodied person would not be able to open a door, never mind a person with disability who needs to access both sides of the vehicle.

That bay is designed to trap drivers into parking beyond the edge of the marked bay. Have you written to the editor of your local newspaper and asked them to look into this problem where an unregulated private parking company is acting in a predatory manner which amounts to direct discrimination of motorists with disabilities? The council is complicit.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: The Rookie on July 03, 2024, 09:05:54 am
So they have taken it as a 'simple appeal' and not a formal complaint.

So now you need to take the complaint to the BPA and one prong will be the fact they haven't even addressed the complaint in the reply contrary to the CoP as well.

Also you need to prepare a POPLA appeal although they are poor on the equalities act, this is so egregious that it may just spark their interest.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on July 02, 2024, 08:10:33 pm
You have misspelt "bollard" twice and the word "boulder" has replaced it in your appellant response to the operators evidence. Apart from that, I think it is good to go.

As for Torbay Councils response, it would need picking apart but does not advance your cause for now. You may want to get your local media interested in the councils mealy response, especially about the fact that only 7 out of 180 parking bays are "fully" accessible. That is less than 4%.

What they have not addressed is the fact that their agent has not complied with the CoP.

Did you respond to their email of 27th June requesting details of the PCN?
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on July 02, 2024, 07:34:26 pm
Hi
This is all I have managed to write as a response  as chronically ill to POPLA regarding premiers response if anyone can comment on it. I did ask for extra time due to not being able to do anything which I got an extra week.
Also had a refusal to uphold my complaint by Torbay Council on grounds of discrimination as copied AT END.
as they have 6 compliant disabled space??

My response for Popla grateful for any comments BELOW

"Premier Parking state, “The hatched markings are in place to allow disabled motorists additional space to manoeuvre around the vehicle and are used by motorists on both sides. They do not form part of the marked bay.
By the Appellant parking not wholly within a bay and over these markings, the vehicle was further causing an obstruction.”

No part of my vehicle was on the hatched markings, as evidenced by Premier Parking’s supplied photo. Therefore, my car was neither an obstruction to any other vehicle or to any other wheelchair user.


Premier Parking state, “motorists are given a reasonable grace period to check the terms and conditions and to leave the site before a PCN is issued.”

This is both inaccurate, misleading, and discriminatory. According to the law, it is a consideration period; not a grace period, and because there were no terms and conditions displayed at the disabled parking bays so therefore were no notices for me to consider and thus no contract was entered into. To add further insult, to expect me to leave the site because I had not read a notice that was ultimately not visible from the disable parking bay, is wholly discriminatory against myself as a disabled person.


Premier Parking states, “It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions and ensure that they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.”

A stated in my response above, there were no terms and conditions at all, that were visible from anywhere near the disabled bay in question. This is against regulations / law, that require such notices to be observable from the disabled bay itself. As such, no terms and conditions could be read or accepted, and thus no contract entered into.

The pictures provided by Premier Parking to illustrate positioning of such notices, are actually from 2017 and 2019, as evidenced by the fact they show Mothercare which closed down over 5 years ago, These photos do not portray the positioning of the signs as they are today. In reality, the nearest notice, from my subsequent research, is half way across the centre of the carpark, as shown by my own photos that were supplied previously, in a location that can easily be missed, is dangerous in the middle of the road  and is in no way observable from the disabled car parking bay as legally required as facing opposite way.

For Premier Parking to insist that a disabled person should hunt around the car park for these notices, is both disgusting and discriminatory.
It is actually the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the terms and conditions of parking are visible from a disabled parking space. Premier Parking have quite clearly failed in this regard.


Premier Parking did not respond at all to the fact they have breached the BPA CoP in that the disabled parking bay does not meet expected practice, as well as fail the Equality Act.
They offered no explanation for why they failed to provide the 1200mm of additional hatched space for access for wheelchair users as required by law. If their parking bay had met these guidelines, I would have been able to park within the bay, without my tyre on the yellow line because I would have had ample space to operate my wheelchair to access both sides of the car? However, this was not the case.

Further more, no explanation was given by Premier Parking for why boulders have been placed on the line of a disabled parking space that should have had 1200mm of space and did not. To place boulders there, and then penalise people for having to position their vehicle accordingly so that doors can be opened and wheelchairs removed, is both ridiculous and discriminatory against wheelchair users.
It also makes it difficult to turn into to park and dangerous.Probably a Health and Safety issue.

I have protected characteristics and have been discriminated against because Premier Parking have treated me less favourably than it treats others, by providing a disabled parking space that does not comply with the requirements of both those stipulated in the guidance in the Equality Act and in the BPA’s own CoP".




COUNCIL RESPONSE TO FORMAL COMPLAINT
"That Premier Parking who the Council employ fail to comply with BPA CoP Section 16.5 and have discriminated against you as disabled person.
Torbay Council as landowner fails to provide fully accessible parking bays at Wren Retail Park, Torquay TQ2 7BJ, such as an end disabled parking bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by 'inclusive mobility' in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 is related to disability discrimination.
Disabled parking bays are also situated in unsafe areas such as the middle of the car park, making it unsafe for disabled people to cross the car park to get to the shops.
Should Premier Parking not cancel the PCN their discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.
Your desired outcome
The outcome you seek from your complaint is:
You would like to know how many disabled people are employed on this retail site and how many disabled parking spaces there are.
For the parking spaces to be redesigned.
What I have investigated
Set out below are the key issues that have been investigated:
What are the Council’s responsibilities in respect of the car park at Wren Park. 
What reasonable adjustments we are required to make in respect of parking available at the site.
The Council’s Complaints Procedure
The Council operates a one stage complaint procedure. Complaints are investigated by either an officer within the relevant department or by the Information Compliance Team.  Where a complaint is investigated within the department, the Information Compliance Team will review the response to ensure it has been investigated thoroughly and fairly and provides an independent review of the response prior to it being sent.
How I considered your complaint
In investigating your complaint, I have:
Spoken with our legal services department who in turn have liaised with Paul Palmer, Strategic Head of Asset Management and Colliers who manage the estate for us at Wren Park.
Considered the responsibilities under the Equality Act 2010.
Considered the guidance Inclusive Mobility and the BPA Code of Practice.
Background
Torbay Council own the Wren Park site as a commercial investment property. Council / public services are not provided in relation to this site.  The car park is for use exclusively by our tenants in the carrying out of their business, which are the retail units operating at the site.  The site itself is managed on our behalf by a third-party agent.

A Disability Access Audit of the site was carried out in 2022 by an independent organisation. The site itself has circa 180 parking bays.  The Inclusive Mobility 2021 guidance recommends:
For car parks associated with shopping areas, leisure or recreational facilities, and places open to the general public: a minimum of one space for each employee who is a disabled motorist, plus 6% of the total capacity for visiting disabled motorists.

This 6% would equal approximately 11 spaces.

In respect of the space available to allow for access the guidance recommends:
Where the spaces are perpendicular to the access aisle, an additional width of 1200mm should be provided on each side. This extra width may be shared with adjacent spaces.

The audit carried out in respect of parking at Wren Park identified the following provision at the site:
7 accessible parking spaces with a 1200mm clearance either side, but none to the rear.
6 accessible parking spaces with a 1200mm clearance to one side with none to the rear.

In order to achieve full compliance with the guidance, it has been identified that 4 of the 13 accessible parking spaces with 1200mm clearance to one side would need to be upgraded to benefit from 1200mm clearance on both sides and an additional 1200mm clearance would need to be added to the rear.

The Inclusive Mobility guidance 2021 is a best practice guide and specific requirements in respect of accessible parking spaces are not set out in legislation.

Investigation

That Premier Parking who the Council employ fail to comply with BPA CoP Section 16.5 and have discriminated against you as disabled person.

Having considered the BPA Code in place at the time of this complaint, I do not agree that the parking available at Wren Park fails to comply with the code.  The code states as follows:
16.1 The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove barriers which may discriminate against disabled people.
16.2 ‘Reasonable adjustments’ to prevent discrimination are likely to include larger ‘disabled’ parking spaces near to the entrance or amenities for disabled people whose mobility is impaired.

As the audit of the car park has identified, reasonable adjustments have been made in that there are accessible spaces available at Wren Park and these are close to the entrance of the retail units, these spaces are larger in size and do have additional space around them.

Torbay Council as landowner fails to provide fully accessible parking bays at Wren Retail Park, Torquay TQ2 7BJ, such as an end disabled parking bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by 'inclusive mobility' in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 is related to disability discrimination.

The Inclusive Mobility guidance 2021 is a best practice guide and specific requirements in respect of accessible parking spaces are not set out in legislation. As set out above, there are reasonable adjustments in place in respect of spaces which are designated as accessible parking spaces and these are larger, with additional space around them.

It is recognised within the audit that there are a total of 13 accessible bays which is in excess of the recommended 6% of bays.  However, the audit did identify that 4 of the accessible parking spaces with 1200mm clearance to one side would need to be upgraded to benefit from 1200mm clearance on both sides and an additional 1200mm clearance would need to be added to the rear. This would ensure full compliance with the guidance.

Therefore, I am satisfied that whilst there are some improvements which could be made to the car park, there are accessible bays available at Wren Park and there is no contravention of the Equality Act 2010.

Disabled parking bays are also situated in unsafe areas such as the middle of the car park, making it unsafe for disabled people to cross the car park to get to the shops.

It is noted that 2 of the accessible parking spaces are located in the middle of the car park, with the majority of the accessible spaces available directly in front of the retail units and thereby complying with the recommendation associated with location in the guidance:
Ideally, designated accessible spaces should be located adjacent, or as close as possible, to the entrance to the facility they serve and no more than 50 metres away.  The route between parking place and venue should be well maintained with no obstructions to access.

Should Premier Parking not cancel the PCN their discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.
This is a matter for Premier Parking to consider whether the PCN was issued correctly for a contravention identified at the time. As such this is not a matter which Torbay Council can consider.
Consideration of Outcomes Requested
In investigating your complaint, I have also considered the outcomes requested:

You would like to know how many disabled people are employed on this retail site and how many disabled parking spaces there are.

We do not hold information about how many disabled people and / or disabled motorists are employed at the retail site.

The number of accessible parking spaces is as set out above:

7 accessible parking spaces with a 1200mm clearance either side, but none to the rear.
6 accessible parking spaces with a 1200mm clearance to one side with none to the rear.


For the parking spaces to be redesigned.
The improvements highlighted within the audit were identified as medium and low priority requirements.  Although it has been noted that our agent will be requesting a follow up review / audit be undertaken.
Conclusions
Whilst it is noted that there are some improvements which could be made to the accessible parking facilities at Wren Park, I am satisfied from my investigation that reasonable adjustments have been made to allow for an appropriate number of accessible spaces.   

I therefore do not uphold your complaint.
Recommendations
As a result of this investigation, the following recommendations have been made:
That the Council fully consider the recommendations from any further audit undertaken.
Parts of the complaint I did not investigate
I have not investigated the following complaint issue:

Should Premier Parking not cancel the PCN their discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.
As stated above, this is a matter for Premier Parking to consider whether the PCN was issued correctly for a contravention identified at the time. As such this is not a matter which Torbay Council can consider.  However, we have requested from you in an email sent on 27 June 2024, details of the PCN issued as the agent we use to manage the site has said they may be able to consider this matter.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on June 18, 2024, 03:57:23 pm
I think it may be limited to 10,000 characters  so you may want to format your response in a text editor that can do a character count for you.
With this is mind, be concise and factual. As b789 suggests, list (as numbered or bulleted points) each point they have not addressed, pointing out that as they have not addressed this point they seemingly do not dispute it. And if you disagree with any of the points they have made, explain your disagreements.

As usual, feel free to show us a draft before submitting.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on June 18, 2024, 03:45:43 pm
The scent of desperation in that operator response. It is also fairly obvious that whoever wrote it is either ignorant or just plain stupid when they refer to "a reasonable grace period to check the terms and conditions" when it is a consideration period, not a grace period. Not that you can use their intellectual malnourishment against them in your POPLA response. Pity.

In your response to the operators response, you must highlight that the photos the operator provided are old and the signs are not present there now as evidenced in the photos you sent in. Also highlight that they have not responded to your claim that they have breached the BPA CoP in that the disabled parking bay does not meet their own guidelines nor those under the Equalities Act.

"The hatched markings are in place to allow disabled motorists additional space to manoeuvre around the vehicle and are used by motorists on both sides. They do not form part of the marked bay.". The bay in question, whilst marked as a disabled bay, does not provide additional space on one side and the driver had no option but to park as they did in order to be able to manoeuvre around the vehicle in order to access their wheelchair.

The operators response does not explain why they have not allowed the driver the "additional space to manoeuvre" in order to access their wheelchair. The driver has protected characteristics  and has been discriminated against because the operator has been treated less favourably than it treats or would treat others by providing a disable parking space that does not comply with the requirements of both those stipulated in the guidance in the Equality Act and in the BPAs own CoP.

Keep going through their response and list all the points they either haven't answered or are trying to squirm out of that you raised. You are limited to how much you can put in your response as you have to use their pathetic little webspace. I think it may be limited to 10,000 characters  so you may want to format your response in a text editor that can do a character count for you.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on June 18, 2024, 03:15:06 pm
Hi everyone I have just had this response through popla from premier parking. they also provided popla with photo showing a signs near the disabled area. this was an old photo when there used to be posts in front of teh cars holding. VERENDAH UP BUT THIS has long gone a few yeARS AGO and I have sent in a photo of this evidencing no signs.
Completely ignoring teh bay does not meet BPA guidelines or disability law under teh equality act
thanks for any help again


They state "On the date of the contravention, our operative observed the vehicle Not Parked Wholly Within Bay, as the driver side wheels were over the bay line and on the hatched markings.
It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions and ensure that they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.
When entering on to a managed car park, motorists are given a reasonable grace period to check the terms and conditions and to leave the site before a PCN is issued. If this time is used for anything other than checking and complying with the terms and conditions, the motorist is considered to have accepted the contract, as they are making use of the facilities the operator is providing.
However, as per the BPA code of practice, no grace period is required to be offered when a parking event has taken place. As the Appellant left the vehicle parked, they accepted the terms and conditions and entered into the contract.
The terms and conditions of parking are clearly stated on the signage.
The Appellant has not denied seeing the signage. Premier Park cannot be held liable for the Appellant failing to see or ignoring the signage.
It is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle to ensure that they have located, read and are able to fully comply with the terms and conditions of parking at all times.
The hatched markings are in place to allow disabled motorists additional space to manoeuvre around the vehicle and are used by motorists on both sides. They do not form part of the marked bay.
By the Appellant parking not wholly within a bay and over these markings, the vehicle was further causing an obstruction.
The terms and conditions of parking apply at all times and to all users of the car park. There are no exceptions to these.
If the Appellant was unable to park wholly within the marked bay due to any reason, they could have sought an alternate parking bay or exited the car park until they were able to comply.
Appellant
We do not believe that we have contravened the Equality Act and do not believe that we discriminate against those who are protected by this Act. The Act defines discrimination at Paragraph 13 as:
“A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a protected characteristic, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat others.”
We have provided disabled bays at this location to provide motorists with additional space around the vehicles. Therefore, we have complied with the Equality Act and the BPA Code of Practice.
 As per the BPA Code of Practice, we allow motorists 5 minutes to enter the site, read the signage, decide if they can comply and if not, exit the site prior to a PCN being issued. This
 period is not a period of free parking but is a consideration period.
 Premier Park Ltd do not have access to or monitor any CCTV footage at this location.
 Therefore, we would not have been aware of the reasons for the
not parking wholly
 within the marked bay on the date of the contravention.
At the time the Parking Charge Notice was issued we could not have reasonably been expected to know of the Appellant’s circumstances and reason for not parking wholly within a bay. We cannot be said to have treated them unfairly or be profiteering from their disability, at the point we issued the Parking Charge.
The signage clearly states that vehicles must park in marked bays only and not cause any obstruction to other users of the parking area. By the Driver not parking wholly within the bay, they were causing an obstruction to other users.
Whilst we note the Appellants comments regarding the layout and design of the car park and bays on-site, we would advise that Premier Park Ltd only monitor the car park for the purpose of ensuring all vehicles park in compliance with the terms and conditions detailed on the signage. We are not responsible for the layout of the car park. We would advise the Appellant to contact the Landowner with any further concerns regarding this.
Premier Park Ltd can confirm that a legal contract does exist between us and the Landowner. See attached separate contract. Please be advised that the contract has been redacted in- line with GDPR.
Premier Park Ltd can confirm that all signage at this location is BPA compliant. We have placed a number of signs around the location which have been approved by the BPA Auditing Team. Our signs follow a tried and tested method to grab the attention of all motorists entering the location. Our signs outline the terms and conditions, so a motorist is able to decide whether they wish to stay or remain and abide by the terms. By designing our signs in the way that we have we believe that we are fully compliant with the BPA Code of Practice and have brought the issue of a PCN, and its amount, to the adequate attention of the motorist.
Our signs are readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk. There is no direct lighting, but the parking area is lit from surrounding businesses and street lighting. The vehicle’s headlights would have lit up the signage and the car park as well.
The vehicle was left parked not wholly within a marked bay, therefore a Parking Charge Notice was issued.
It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have read and parked in compliance with the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the Appellant did not.
We request that the Appellant's appeal be refused.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on May 29, 2024, 08:31:40 pm
BPA won't get involved until the complaints process of the operator has been concluded, which given they've seemingly treated your complaint as an appeal, it hasn't been.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 29, 2024, 08:21:39 pm
I have just received thsi from BPA. which I think is bad as refusing to be involved with disability discrimination with car parking spaces. would be glad of thoughts??

 
Our Role
 
Our role as an Accredited Trade Association is to investigate alleged breaches of our Code of Practice by members of our Approved Operator Scheme where evidence can be supplied and where the operator’s internal complaints process has been exhausted.
 
We are unable to become involved in individual ticket disputes or compel our members to cancel charges.
 Next Steps
 
I note you have attached your complaint to Premier Park Ltd dated 13th May 2024. Please note we require a copy of the Complaint Outcome from the operator before we can determine if further investigation is required.
 
Please allow sufficient time for the operator to respond within the timescale set out in their internal complaints procedure which can be found here: 428d3e_d67b994b1cd543669c515ecd5827bcce.pdf (premierpark.co.uk)
 
Kind regards
Sarah Pell
Compliance Investigation Officer
British Parking Association
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 24, 2024, 01:51:34 pm
thanks so much for your time, I didnt get the messages at first only "edited : hence not understanding.

Yes I did make formal complaint to torbay council it is under investigation as copied below. Normally anything they employ  firms to do, they dont ever monitor these firms and there are always problems which they never learn to start monitoring them

the one to premier was a formal complaint but they dont seem to have took it as a formal complaint. just an appeal.
thankyou for the BPA letter that looks so good will send that and what for others to reply too


the response form Torbay Council was
"The Council operates a one stage complaint procedure. Complaints are investigated by either an officer within the relevant department or by the Information Governance Team.  Where a complaint is investigated within the department, the Information Governance Team will review the response to ensure it has been investigated thoroughly and fairly and provides an independent review of the response prior to it being sent.
 
We are currently arranging for your complaint to be investigated under the Council's Corporate Complaints Procedure and you should expect to receive a response by 12 June 2024. If there is going to be a delay we will notify you as soon as possible.
 
Further information on the Council's Complaints Procedure can be found online at www.torbay.gov.uk/complaints
 
With regards to the issues raised in your complaint, I understand these to be as follows:
That Premier Parking who the Council employ fail to comply with BPA CoP Section 16.5 and have discriminated against you as disabled person.
Torbay Council as landowner fails to provide fully accessible parking bays at Wren Retail Park, Torquay TQ2 7BJ, such as an end disabled parking bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by 'inclusive mobility' in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 is related to disability discrimination.
Disabled parking bays are also situated in unsafe areas such as the middle of the car park, making it unsafe for disabled people to cross the car park to get to the shops.
Should Premier Parking not cancel the PCN their discrimination goes from 'indirect' to 'direct' discrimination.
The outcome you are seeking from your complaint is:
You would like to know how many disabled people are employed on this retail site and how many disabled parking spaces there are.
The parking spaces need to be redesigned.
If we have misunderstood the issues or outcome you seek, please reply to this email within 10 working days clarifying clearly, the issues and outcome sought.
 
Should you wish to challenge or appeal a PCN you have been issued by Premier Parking you will need to contact them directly and follow their process. "
 
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 24, 2024, 12:56:57 pm
Here is a draft POPLA appeal but don't rush this. I'd like to see what other regulars on here have to critique about it.

Quote
POPLA ref: [POPLA Reference Code]
Premier Park Ltd ref: [PCN Reference Number]
Vehicle registration: [Vehicle Registration Mark]

I am the Registered Keeper (RK) of the vehicle. I dispute the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the following grounds:

1. Non-Compliant Disabled Parking Bay Dimensions
2. Failure to Comply with BPA Code of Practice Section 16.5
3. Discrimination under the Equality Act 2010
4. De Minimis Principle
5. Inadequate Signage Leading to Breach of BPA Code of Practice Section 16.2
6. No Evidence of Landholder Authority
7. Operator has not shown that it has a contract to issue PCNs in its own name

1. Non-Compliant Disabled Parking Bay Dimensions:

The parking bay in question is a disabled parking bay that does not conform to the dimensions required by the "Inclusive Mobility" section of the Equality Act 2010. According to these guidelines, disabled parking bays should provide an extra 1200mm on each side to allow occupants with disabilities to safely access their vehicles.

In this instance, the bay in question is an end bay in a row of disabled parking bays. It only has the additional 1200mm space on one side, while the other side is obstructed by bollards, significantly restricting access. As the driver required access to both sides of the vehicle to accommodate a wheelchair, they parked with the vehicle slightly touching the edge of the bay marking. This was necessary to ensure safe access, as the photos provided clearly show that the vehicle was still wholly within the bay, with only the edge of the tyres touching the marking.

2. Failure to Comply with BPA Code of Practice Section 16.5:

Premier Parking Ltd, as an operator, is required to have regard for their duties under the Equality Act 2010, as stipulated by the BPA Code of Practice Section 16.5. By managing a disabled parking bay that does not meet the standards set out in the "Inclusive Mobility" guidelines, Premier Parking Ltd has failed to comply with these requirements. The inadequate dimensions of the bay directly resulted in the alleged infringement, as it was impossible to park fully within the bay while ensuring necessary access for the disabled driver.

3. Discrimination under the Equality Act 2010:

By failing to provide a disabled parking bay that conforms to the required standards, Premier Parking Ltd has discriminated against me as a disabled person. The Equality Act 2010 mandates that reasonable adjustments be made to avoid placing disabled persons at a substantial disadvantage. The parking bay's non-compliance with the stipulated dimensions placed me at such a disadvantage, necessitating the minor deviation in parking.

4. De Minimis Principle:

The alleged infringement is de minimis, meaning it is too minor to warrant action. The slight touching of the tyre on the bay marking did not obstruct other vehicles or pedestrians and was necessary due to the non-compliant bay dimensions. The principle of de minimis non curat lex (the law does not concern itself with trifles) should apply here, especially given the mitigating circumstances of the bay's non-compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

5. Inadequate Signage Leading to Breach of BPA Code of Practice Section 16.2:

The signage at the location fails to adequately bring to the attention of the driver the terms and conditions, including the charge for not complying. BPA Code of Practice Section 16.2 states that signs must be clearly readable without the driver needing to leave the vehicle. The signs at this location are not prominent, clear, or legible from all parking spaces, meaning that the terms were not properly communicated to the driver.

6. No Evidence of Landholder Authority:

Premier Parking Ltd has not shown that it has the authority from the landowner to issue and enforce parking charges. As stipulated in the BPA Code of Practice, operators must have clear authorization from the landowner to manage and enforce parking rules. Without such evidence, the PCN is invalid.

7. Operator Has Not Shown That It Has a Contract to Issue PCNs in Its Own Name:

There is no evidence that Premier Parking Ltd has a contract that entitles them to issue PCNs in their own name. This raises questions about the legitimacy of their operations and their authority to enforce parking regulations at this location.

Conclusion:

Given these points, I request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel the PCN. The operators failure to provide a disabled parking bay that meets the required standards directly impacted the situation, and the operator has not adhered to the legal and procedural requirements necessary to issue a valid PCN.

It will require some evidential photos to show that the operators employee has deliberately failed to show the restriction on the side of the bay that caused the driver to park in the manner that they did. Having looked at the location on GSV, you can see that in 2022, there was no signage of the terms that could seen by a disabled driver without having to leave the vehicle:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DWh3N5VJoRd8cCye8
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 24, 2024, 12:05:41 pm
Did you try to contact anyone at Torbay Council. They are the landowners and are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, Premier Park Ltd. As such, they can instruct their agents to cancel the PCN. If you are not sure who to contact at the council and you are a local, try contacting your local councillor and asking them for help in dealing with this and pointing you in the right direction for who you should be complaining to at the council.

Your next step is going to be an appeal to POPLA. You have 32 days from the date of the rejection email to file your POPLA appeal. We will help you put that together. A complaint to the BPA is also in order for the failings of their member to fully comply with the BPA CoP section 16.5.

You can fire off a complaint to the BPA with the following:

Quote
Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Formal Complaint Against Premier Parking Ltd for Non-Compliance and Discrimination

I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against Premier Parking Ltd, an AOS member of the BPA, regarding the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued to me on [Date], PCN reference number [PCN Number], and their subsequent handling of my complaint.

Discrimination and Non-Compliance with the Equality Act

The PCN was issued for the alleged infringement of "not parked fully within the bay". The parking bay in question does not conform to the required standards set out in the “Inclusive Mobility” section of the Equality Act 2010 (EA) and as such, is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice section 16.5. As a disabled person, I require bays that meet the required standards to ensure I can safely and effectively access my vehicle. The inadequate width of the bay, due to it not having the extra 1,200mm width and with bollards on the edge, forced me to park with a minor and unavoidable deviation, with my tyre marginally touching the edge of the bay marking. This minor infringement was deemed de minimis and did not obstruct or inconvenience others.

By failing to provide disabled parking bays that meet the necessary standards, Premier Park Ltd has discriminated against me as a disabled person. Discrimination under the Equality Act is an offence in law. While Premier Park Ltd may not own the land, they are responsible for the management of the car park and must ensure that the disabled bays conform to legal requirements. A similar complaint is being lodged with the landowner, Torbay Council.

Breach of BPA Code of Practice and Inadequate Response

Moreover, the failure of Premier Park Ltd to adequately respond to my complaint, separate from my appeal, constitutes a breach of the BPA Code of Practice section 9.7. Section 16.5 of the BPA Code of Practice stipulates that operators must have regard to their duties under the Equality Act. Issuing a PCN for a de minimis infringement in a non-compliant disabled parking bay, and then ignoring a legitimate complaint about this issue, is neither reasonable nor proportionate.

Request for BPA Review and Action

In light of these points, I request the BPA to:
1. Conduct a thorough investigation into this matter.
2. Take appropriate action against Premier Park Ltd for non-compliance with the Equality Act and the BPA Code of Practice.
3. Mandate the cancellation of the unjust PCN.
4. Ensure that Premier Park Ltd rectifies the bay dimensions to comply with the “Inclusive Mobility” standards.

I would appreciate your attention to this matter. I look forward to your prompt response and a resolution to this issue.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 24, 2024, 11:28:41 am
Sorry I dont understand ?  thanks
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 24, 2024, 11:05:34 am
Next step is your POPLA appeal. You actually have 32 days, not 28 days from the date of the email you received with your initial appeal rejection. No need to rush this.

The letter of complaint you have shown needs slight tweaking. Has that already been sent? If so, was it acknowledged as a complaint received?

What about the council? Did you contact anyone there. A similar complaint should be sent to the council. You just need to try and find the person/department responsible for the car park at that location. You may want to find the name of your local councillor and ask for their assistance in finding out who to complain to at the council.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on May 24, 2024, 11:03:05 am
Edited.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 24, 2024, 09:12:28 am
Hi I have just received a response from premier parking as below
also complained to council no response yet other than saying to continue to deal with premier
and have copied the formal complaint I made to premier parking

PCN REFERENCE NUMBER:
POPLA CODE:
DATE OF PARKING EVENT: 20th April 2024


PAYMENT DUE DATE:  6th June 2024
TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00

Dear

Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was not parked fully within a bay, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.

Please note, our complaints process can be found on our website.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; you can either pay or appeal to POPLA - you cannot do both:

You can pay the total amount due as shown above via the following payment options;
• Call us on: 01302 513232
• Pay online: www.pcnpayments.com
• Send a postal order: Premier Park Ltd, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG

Or, you can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service, POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) using the POPLA reference code provided above. Please note, should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected or you withdraw your appeal, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due. Please note, if you pay the PCN prior to appealing to POPLA, your appeal will be withdrawn as you will have accepted liability in full.

If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk where further details of how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be found. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure your POPLA Reference Number, as noted above, is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this email to submit an appeal to POPLA. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN and the charge will not increase until the appeal has been determined.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.


Premier Park Ltd. PO Box 624, Exeter, Devon, EX1 9JG

13th May 2024

PREMIER PARKING FORMAL COMPLAINt

Re DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION re

I wish to make a formal complaint (not an appeal) to Premier Parking highlighting their failure to comply with the BPA CoP section 16.
Section 16.5 in particular is breached and you have discriminated against me as a disabled person.

TORBAY COUNCIL the landowner fails to provide a fully accessible parking bay, such as an end bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by “Inclusive Mobility” in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 is related to disability discrimination.

Equality Act 2010 and Accessibility:

The Equality Act 2010 requires reasonable adjustments to be made to ensure accessibility for disabled individuals in various contexts, including parking facilities.

Disabled Parking Bays and Reasonable Adjustments:

When designing parking bays, landowners must consider the needs of disabled users.

Reasonable adjustments may include:

Providing sufficient space for wheelchair users to access and manoeuvre.
Ensuring unobstructed access to vehicle doors. Adhering to guidelines on dimensions and placement.

“Inclusive Mobility” Guidelines:

The “Inclusive Mobility” guide provides best practices for accessible pedestrian and transport infrastructure. It recommends that each side of a disabled parking bay should have an extra 1200mm space beyond the standard bay width. This additional space allows for safe door opening and manoeuvring.

Breach of Equality Act:

Torbay council failed to provide the recommended additional space, it should be considered a breach of the Equality Act. Disabled individuals are facing difficulties accessing their vehicles or using the parking bay effectively. Such non-compliance constitutes disability discrimination.

In this scenario, scenario where a disabled driver is penalised by an unregulated private parking company due to the landowner’s (Torbay Council) failure to comply with the Inclusive Mobility guidelines of the Equality Act 2010, it is essential to consider the roles and responsibilities of each party:

The Landowner:

The landowner is responsible for providing accessible parking facilities on their property. If the landowner fails to comply with guidelines (such as not providing the recommended additional space in a disabled parking bay), they are indirectly contributing to discrimination against disabled individuals. Their actions (or lack thereof) impacts the accessibility and usability of parking spaces.

Unregulated Private Parking Company Premier parking

Premier Parking unregulated private parking company acts as an agent on behalf of the landowner, you enforce parking rules and issue charges.

As you have penalised me as a disabled driver unfairly due to inadequate parking facilities (as a result of the landowner’s non-compliance), you are directly involved in discriminatory behaviour. Your actions violate the Equality Act 2010 when you penalise someone based on their disability.

Discrimination:

Discrimination occurs both directly (by the parking company) and indirectly (due to the landowner’s failure to provide accessible facilities).
I as the disabled driver is adversely affected by this situation, regardless of whether the discrimination is direct or indirect.

In summary, both the landowner (for inadequate facilities) and the private parking company (for enforcing penalties) play a role in this scenario. The disabled driver’s rights should be protected and any discriminatory actions must be addressed appropriately. That address includes redesigning the car park to accessible inclusive standards.

Taking Action:

As I have encountered an inaccessible parking bay which has caused me to be penalised, I am reporting it to Torbay council as they are responsible for ensuring parking facilities meet the required standard.
I note the same bollards are placed again child bays blocking access out of their cars too.


Premier Parkings discrimination in breach of the Equality Act should you not cancel the PCN, means your discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.

I look forward to a urgent response

Yours Sincerely

thankyou so much again for help much appreciated xxx
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: H C Andersen on May 12, 2024, 03:41:38 pm
@DWMB2, thanks.

OP, I think you should focus on the PCN.

It seems to comply with PoFA therefore the keeper could be held liable for any overdue parking charge incurred by the driver. It therefore follows that there's no point in withholding the driver's identity, especially when in this case that person holds a BB which was on display.

IMO, you leave complaining until later, and frankly even if the parking charge is cancelled the circumstances might still warrant a complaint. But if you were to, then you would need to be clear about to whom you direct your complaint e.g. you've no idea who is responsible for the layout of the bays, it might or might not be the PPC and you've no idea whether they've brought this design issue to the attention of the landowner or not etc. BPA 16.5 couches its requirement without placing an absolute responsibility upon their member because the BPA doesn't know the scope of every member's authority under their contracts.

The 28-day period for making an appeal ends on 23 May. I would simply say that, as the photos show, there was no substantive breach of the terms and conditions because the purpose of the hatched area is to provide a disabled driver with additional accessible space to park, alight and board their vehicle. The exact subdivision and allocation of space having regard to the position of the car, the BB holder's particular disabilities, size of doors, the arc described by their movement to facilitate egress and access and whether on the driver's or passenger side or rear can only be determined on a case-by-case basis. It would be a foolish parking company which sought to attribute precise limits particularly, as in this case, the bay had a different and more constrained layout from the other disabled bays because of the restriction imposed by the bollards.

While other options are available to me i.e. complaint to the store or landowner or BPA, I have decided to place these on hold while you consider my appeal.

Some thoughts.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 11, 2024, 06:25:36 pm
You should send an immediate complaint (not an appeal) to Premier Parking highlighting their failure to comply with the BPA CoP section 16 (https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/Version91.2.2024Highlight.pdf). Section 16.5 in particular is breached.

As soon as they have responded, you must file a complaint about them with the BPA for the failure to comply with section 16.1 and 16.5. AS much pressure as possible must be exerted on this abysmal behaviour by this rogue PPC.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on May 11, 2024, 05:59:23 pm
I have attached photos of area below, not my car but someone else did exactly teh same as me to try and get access to the left side of their car too, you can see bolder/posts are smack in way of door access and no space for anyone to get in and out of car
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: H C Andersen on May 11, 2024, 05:51:47 pm
OP, why are the photos in post #1 of a blue car and yet the ones embedded in the PCN, presumably yours, of a red car?
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 11, 2024, 11:30:19 am
Having done a bit more research into this, I believe that you have been discriminated against by Torbay Council and Premier Park.

If a landowner fails to provide a fully accessible parking bay, such as an end bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by “Inclusive Mobility” in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 that may be applicable, is related to disability discrimination.

Equality Act 2010 and Accessibility:

The Equality Act 2010 requires reasonable adjustments to be made to ensure accessibility for disabled individuals in various contexts, including parking facilities.

Disabled Parking Bays and Reasonable Adjustments:

When designing parking bays, landowners must consider the needs of disabled users.

Reasonable adjustments may include:

Providing sufficient space for wheelchair users to access and maneuver.
Ensuring unobstructed access to vehicle doors. Adhering to guidelines on dimensions and placement.

“Inclusive Mobility” Guidelines:

The “Inclusive Mobility” guide provides best practices for accessible pedestrian and transport infrastructure. It recommends that each side of a disabled parking bay should have an extra 1200mm space beyond the standard bay width. This additional space allows for safe door opening and manoeuvring.

Breach of Equality Act:

If a landowner fails to provide the recommended additional space, it should be considered a breach of the Equality Act. Disabled individuals may face difficulties accessing their vehicles or using the parking bay effectively. Such non-compliance constitutes disability discrimination.

In this scenario, scenario where a disabled driver is penalised by an unregulated private parking company due to the landowner’s (Torbay Council) failure to comply with the Inclusive Mobility guidelines of the Equality Act 2010, it is essential to consider the roles and responsibilities of each party:

The Landowner:

The landowner is responsible for providing accessible parking facilities on their property. If the landowner fails to comply with guidelines (such as not providing the recommended additional space in a disabled parking bay), they are indirectly contributing to discrimination against disabled individuals. Their actions (or lack thereof) impacts the accessibility and usability of parking spaces.

Unregulated Private Parking Company (Agent):

The unregulated private parking company acts as an agent on behalf of the landowner. They enforce parking rules and issue charges.

If they penalise a disabled driver unfairly due to inadequate parking facilities (as a result of the landowner’s non-compliance), they are directly involved in discriminatory behavior. Their actions violate the Equality Act 2010 if they penalise someone based on their disability.

Discrimination:

Discrimination occurs both directly (by the parking company) and indirectly (due to the landowner’s failure to provide accessible facilities). The disabled driver is adversely affected by this situation, regardless of whether the discrimination is direct or indirect.

In summary, both the landowner (for inadequate facilities) and the private parking company (for enforcing penalties) play a role in this scenario. The disabled driver’s rights should be protected and any discriminatory actions must be addressed appropriately.

Taking Action:

As you have encountered an inaccessible parking bay which has caused you to be penalised, you must report it to the relevant authorities (e.g., local council or property management). Advocacy and awareness play a crucial role in ensuring that parking facilities meet the necessary standards.



Feel free to put all of this to the council, bringing to their attention that they have breached the Equality Act 2010 by discriminating against you, which is a criminal matter. Both they and their agents are jointly and severally liable for their actions.

In your initial appeal to Premier Parking, use the above information and highlight their discrimination in breach of the Equality Act. Inform them that should they not cancel the PCN, their discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on May 11, 2024, 10:19:28 am
Quote
Should I complain to parking at council and not bother with Premier parking?
If you don't get anywhere with the landowner/council/managing agent then in my view you definitely should bother with Premier Parking. If you've not heard back from anyone before Premier's arbitrary appeal deadline then appeal to them - you may wish to compile a draft appeal and share here for comment.

They won't accept, but appealing helps to show you know your stuff, and aren't the easy target they're hoping for.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 11, 2024, 01:43:48 am
You haven’t received a “penalty” charge. You’ve received a Parking Charge Notice which is only a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company.

You need to find the person responsible for the management of the car park. Possibly some kind of parking services dept. and make a complaint to them about this unfair PCN and ask them to get it cancelled. Send a complaint to your local councillor, if you live within the jurisdiction of that council and copy in whoever is the chief executive of the council.

You shouod expose them to the media.

There may be a case of discrimination under the Equality Act as they have not allowed the necessary adjustment for you to use that car parking space by the restrictions imposed by the bollards. The council, as the landowner are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, Premier Parking Ltd.

I hope you are up for a fight on this as it is a typical example of the cowboy methods that these ex-clamper thugs use to extort money.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 10, 2024, 11:32:57 pm
Looks like they do own it, found in news

"Torbay Council paid £21.1million for Wren Park, in Torquay, including purchase costs. But the property was valued at the end of March 2020 at £11.5million, down from £18.1million a year earlier."

Should I complain to parking at council and not bother with Premier parking?

Am I right in law there should be 1200mm either side of the car for access and there fore a penalty charge does not apply as it does not leet teh equality act
thankyou
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side
Post by: b789 on May 10, 2024, 10:29:26 pm
It will be interesting if the council do own the land. Some points to note:

1. If the land is owned by the council, that means it falls under their jurisdiction.

2. Is the land under statutory control? This refers to legal regulations and restrictions imposed by local or national authorities. In the case of council owned land, there may be specific rules or agreements governing its use and management.

3. When a private parking company operates on council owned land, they do so under a contract or lease agreement. The council grants the company the right to manage parking enforcement, issue fines/charges, and collect fees. However, the council retains overall ownership and control.

4. Local councils often have specific regulations regarding parking on their land. These regulations may cover matters such as parking duration, fees, and enforcement procedures. It is essential to check the council's website or contact them directly for accurate and up-to-date information.

5. Contact the council's parking services department for clarification.

So, you should find out if the land car park is situated on, is owned by the council and if so, find out who to complain to. If they say it is not owned by them, you can ask them who pays the rates for the location. That will reveal who is the landowner.
 
Find out who is your local councillor and ask for their intervention. You may swell contact your own MP and do the same. Get in touch with your local newspaper and highlight the absurdity of this de-minimis PCN and how the problematic layout leads to entrapment.
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 10, 2024, 09:32:59 pm
Thankyou both of you

It has been issued by premier parking ltd, I think the land is owned by Torbay council.
I have not complained as yet but definitely will be. It is a ridiculous designed car park and some disabled places are in the middle of the car park not even next to the shops so you have to cross the road to get to the path/shops

I did complain to Next but they say they have no say in the car parking. The charge was sent to me by post

Thanks for your time

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: b789 on May 10, 2024, 01:21:37 pm
As above. Which unregulated private parking company has had the audacity to issue this PCN? Was this a windscreen NtD or just a postal NtH? We need to see both sides of the NtK including all dates. Just redact your personal details, the PCN number and VRN.

Have you tried complaining to Next/landowner?
Title: Re: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: DWMB2 on May 10, 2024, 12:14:56 pm
Before we get into any potentially technical arguments about the size of the bays, let's get all the relevant information into play.

Have a thorough read of the following thread, and amend your post accordingly to reflect the guidance in there, and the information requested: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)

As an aside, looking at the photos, there's an argument to be made that any contravention is de minimis.
Title: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving
Post by: just glad of help on May 10, 2024, 10:33:20 am
Hi Everyone
I am wheelchair disabled and hence used a disabled parking space at a Next car park Torquay I think owned by council but parking charges ran by private parking firm.
I received a ticket for being slightly out of parking space on line.
I had to do this as to one side of teh parking there is NO additional 1200mm width and there are posts set smack on the border of the disabled parking space, so you cant even open a car door on that side to get in or out of car at all
I had needed to use that side hence unconsciously parked slightly over line to be able to open door slightly for access which was still difficult with posts all along.
I have attached photos of area below, not my car but someone else did exactly teh same as me to try and get access to the left side of their car too, you can see bolder/posts are smack in way of door access and no space for anyone to get in and out of car

Can I argue this disabled space is unlawful and against teh equality act and therefore I should not have to pay the fine as teh disabled space does not meet Inclusive Disability guidelines and therefore unlawful. there are other disabled spots like this too in car park, which I would like to complain and get changed if possible, as im sure im not the only one getting a ticket and have seen others have to park like I did to try and access their access car.

Inclusive Mobility states
8.3 The design of accessible parking spaces: off-street
Designated accessible parking spaces should be located on firm and level
ground.  A designated accessible space should
be a minimum of 4800mm long and 2400mm wide. WHERE THE SPACES ARE
PERPENDICULAR TO THE ACCESS AISLE, AN ADDITIONAL WIDTH OF 1200MM SHOULD BE
PROVIDED ON EACH SIDE. This extra width may be shared with adjacent spaces.
An additional zone of 1200mm should be provided, at the vehicle access end
of the space

thanks very very much for your help !!

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