Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: estevenin on May 08, 2024, 02:28:59 pm
-
Who is 'they'?
If the authority, there's no provision for them dealing other than with the RK.
If the hirer, then what options are easily accessible to the OP?
I believe that in general, the fine is just passed on to the driver for him to deal with it, and they are not used to the council refusing to do it.
Really. The person to whom the PCN and Enforcement Notices are sent is always liable, the only role for the driver would be to make reps on behalf of the RK, not to become the person liable.
The hirer. In that very case I had no option of appeal, because after the refusal from the council to transfer liability to the driver, the hirer company paid directly. So yes, zero option available to me, the driver. Had I been informed of the PCN back in January, then yes I suppose I could have dealt with it directly.
I have phoned the hire company, and they said that after the first challenge, they have paid it anyway. So it's game over, there won't be any NOR coming their way.
@estevenin so they didn't have to pay it but have chosen to do so of their own volition. Sounds like a commercial decision by them, nothing to do with you and you cannot be held liable.
If they ask you to pay I'd tell them to take a hike. I'll be more than happy to act as your McKenzie friend on this one if necessary.
I agree with you.
To respond to you all, I finally got my hand on the contract (just a piece of paper with some directions really), it only said that any PCN will be passed on to the driver for him to deal with. Nothing more than that, nothing about they paying the charge and pass this on.
So everyone is right, legally speaking, they would be fully liable for this charge. Because it's never been passed on. Good information if this happens to someone else in the future.
Thank you cp8759 for the offer, I have choosen to pay back the hire company anyway in that case, they are not simply a hire company, they are a claim company, my car got hit back in december and they were taking care of providing (PCO) car replacements, getting the costs back (of my now written off car) from them, as well as the loss of income claim. So I did not want to affect our commercial relationship, they have gone above and beyond so far to get me back on the road, and it's the 2nd time in 3 years I have to use them, and likely will in the future.
I am not too bothered of paying them back, I am bothered that the council got paid in the first place, for such a silly reason, this I would be willing to fight anytime.
Thank you all for responding, had never been aware that a council could refuse to transfer liability to the driver as I had never experienced that before, seems like it might be the start of a new practice for the councils, it makes their job easier, saves them from receiving challenges and tribunal stuff...
As CP mentionned, I'm sure this is on their mind : "but why don't you just pay the penalty and recharge it to your customer"
Thanks again, that is now closed and I hope it can help others.
-
I would love to see that happen. It is abhorrent that a consumer can be potentially disadvantaged in this way.
There are now a few cases on the London register where I'm representing a lease company (in practice it's the lessor with an LoA from the lease company), in some such cases TFL's submissions is "but why don't you just pay the penalty and recharge it to your customer?".
-
I would love to see that happen. It is abhorrent that a consumer can be potentially disadvantaged in this way.
It is also an enabler for authorities.
(If it just so happened that I operated a ppc I could certainly see that I might implement an internal policy which involved me reminding finance cos of a non settled charge as a matter of course.)
-
I have phoned the hire company, and they said that after the first challenge, they have paid it anyway. So it's game over, there won't be any NOR coming their way.
@estevenin so they didn't have to pay it but have chosen to do so of their own volition. Sounds like a commercial decision by them, nothing to do with you and you cannot be held liable.
If they ask you to pay I'd tell them to take a hike. I'll be more than happy to act as your McKenzie friend on this one if necessary.
-
Who is 'they'?
If the authority, there's no provision for them dealing other than with the RK.
If the hirer, then what options are easily accessible to the OP?
I believe that in general, the fine is just passed on to the driver for him to deal with it, and they are not used to the council refusing to do it.
Really. The person to whom the PCN and Enforcement Notices are sent is always liable, the only role for the driver would be to make reps on behalf of the RK, not to become the person liable.
-
This PCN was issued back in January, they visibly challenged saying "I was not the driver" and passed on my details. The council responded late march (2 and a half months later it seems), after that the Hire company paid the fine, and sent a communication to me early April, then another mid April, and finally another one end of April, to recover that 65GBP amount from me.
I just got informed of those now from the previous occupier in my other house, as I'm in between 2 moves. That beeing said you are right, I was only made aware of this officially early april by post, after their challenge, and their payment. Even if I had received the first mail, it would have been too late.
I believe that in general, the fine is just passed on to the driver for him to deal with it, and they are not used to the council refusing to do it.
As for the T&Cs, I don't have the paper right now it's in my boxes I'll get them back by the end of the month, but I suspect that you might be right, that this should not have been paid before my consent. The contrary is nevertheless possible, I have used a company before that had as a policy to pay the fine regardless, then bill it back to the driver.
I can check for informative purposes in 2 weeks when I get them back, but I won't get into conflict with this company as it's not just a simple hire company, their are a claim company that are handeling my claim against an insurance company after one of their client hit me on the back. They gave me a car back then, whilst mine was to be repaired (but ended up written off).
-
Hang on a minute. Why was it not passed onto the driver? This is not acceptable. What do the T and Cs say?
-
Hi all,
Thank you for your kind contributions. I'm surprised and not surprised to hear that at the same time...
I have phoned the hire company, and they said that after the first challenge, they have paid it anyway. So it's game over, there won't be any NOR coming their way.
They also mentionned that usually the PCN gets passed on to the driver, but for some reason this time around they refused... Perhaps Merton council has recognized my name indeed ;D
Such a shame, this was again a useless PCN, 20 meters into the lane before a left turn...
They'v won for this time.
Thank you all again.
-
Op knows all this as he won the famous key case v Ealing in November 2022.
-
OP, read up on this on the tribunal website:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-bus-lanes
('you' being the registered keeper)
-
Yes as per MM. Be good to get this to the Tribunal.
-
OP---if this is London then the Council are correct. With a hire car and a bus lane contravention there is no facility to transfer liability to the driver,
The best you can do is ask the hire company to allow you to contest the PCN on its behalf.
Before that let's have details of your agreement, length and general terms etc.
Mike
-
Hi all,
First message in the new forum, RIP to Pepipoo.
I was driving a hired car back in January and just got informed that I got a bus lane PCN, by the hire company. The company appealed in order to transfer liability to myself, however the council refused, saying that the keeper is responsible, and they have no obligation to transfer it to the driver.
I understand that the idea of doing that, is that they know that the company will pay and charge the driver.
But my question is... is that really legal ? It was always my understanding that the driver was always responsible for whatever breach of the highway code.
Below is the PCN and the Response, waiting for an advice before I call up the hire company (I know that the dates are quite back, I'v just received that from them in early April, and as I have moved house, I didn't receive the first communication). I'm not sure yet if they have already paid, if I go online, the payment option is still "available", but I will ask them.
Just wanted to know if yes or no the council is allowed to do that ?
Thank you all for your knowledge.
(https://i.ibb.co/tLGXsd5/Merton-PCN-Copie.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/B4tcj84/Merton-Rep-Copie.jpg)