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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bono_01 on May 07, 2024, 11:22:30 am

Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: stamfordman on November 12, 2024, 10:55:03 pm
So Newham messed up its evidence. You're right (some) councils have got lazy about evidencing CPZs.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on November 12, 2024, 09:36:59 pm
Outcome:

1. The Appellant is appealing a PCN issued in respect of parking on a restricted street during prescribed hours at the location.
2. The Appellant is represented today by Mr Murray-Smith, who has attended by telephone.
3. The Enforcement Authority relies upon the contemporaneous evidence of the Civil Enforcement Officer, a copy of the PCN, a copy of the relevant legislation and correspondence.
4. Mr Murray-Smith contends that there is no evidence of any signage relating to the yellow line restriction.
5. I have carefully considered all the evidence in this matter.
6. The CEO's photographs show the vehicle to be parked on a single yellow line at the location. The CEO appears not to have taken any photographs of relevant signage, and therefore the restriction relied upon is not readily evidence from these photographs.
7. The EA has provided library photographs dating back to 2022. These show a multi-vehicle bay, adjacent to which is the signage which governs this bay. There is a yellow line running through the bay, which has been removed subsequently and is not present in the photographs taken by the CEO.
8. The signage relied upon by the EA relates to the multi-vehicle bay. There is no evidence before me as to the yellow line restrictions, either by way of signage at the location, or Controlled Zone entry point signage.
9. I cannot be satisfied as to the details/hours of the yellow line restriction at the location.
10. I therefore allow this appeal.

Philippa Alderson
Adjudicator
11 November 2024
2240450943
PN38651553

Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: stamfordman on October 07, 2024, 07:11:20 pm
You can add in this - fettering discretion. Meaning of course they can cancel. Especially as they sympathise.

(https://i.imgur.com/9Ce9rSI.png)
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on October 07, 2024, 06:44:45 pm
Hi @John U.K., yes I did it with big assassistance of cp8759. So I will keep you posted if any news comes up.
Thank you for the very quick responses last night.
Best Regards
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: John U.K. on October 07, 2024, 06:32:31 pm
Did you register an appeal?
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on October 06, 2024, 10:35:20 pm
@bono_01 I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal, with Newham cases I can usually find something worth arguing and as others have pointed out, you can't end up any worse of by appealing. I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: John U.K. on October 06, 2024, 10:02:48 pm
See what others say, but personally I think your chances of success are slim.

Under Grounds of Appeal try writing something like Full grounds to follow on receipt of Council's Evidence Pack.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on October 06, 2024, 09:29:29 pm
Thanks @John U.K.

See my letter to the Newham council below, can that be used for the London Tribunal, or need to be something different?
I'm a little bit concerned about what Grounds of Appeal to use...
Thanks in advance for any help with this :)
-----------------------
Dear Sir/Madam

Subject: Penalty Charge Notice  PN38651553  dated 06.05.2024
reg RE12NHG

I write to you in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice issued to my vehicle which was issued for the alleged reason - Parked in a Restricted street during prescribed hours.

I wish to appeal it as the contravention did not occur for the following reasons:

The car was parked on a bank holiday when restrictions for parking were not clearly shown by signage. The Newham website states, "The restrictions for yellow lines can be found on time plates by the side of the road". On that particular street, there aren't any signs stating any information about parking on bank holidays for either parking bays or single yellow lines. If Restrictions don't apply to parking bays on a Bank holiday but apply to single yellow lines there should be clear signs stating that difference.

All signs need to be clearly visible and to prescribed criteria so motorists can make an informed decision. If a sign is obscured and unclear, it cannot be said that the car park/road was adequately signed. I therefore cannot be found guilty of the alleged contravention.
I enclose photos and supporting evidence to support my appeal for consideration.

I look forward to receiving confirmation that the ticket has been canceled within 28 days.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: John U.K. on October 06, 2024, 09:03:04 pm
Because deciding on papers alone, the adjudicator cannot ask for clarification on any points. More paper decision appeals  fail than personal. Personal hearings can be in person or by telephone.

Also by registering tonight you will buy more time to see how good your case is . . .

Please also attend to
Quote
Not sure what will be your reasons to persuade the adjudicator to allow the appeal??

Please post a copy of your rejected reps.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on October 06, 2024, 08:53:46 pm
Thanks for the quick response @John U.K.

what is the reason for choosing a personal hearing over a postal one?

Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: John U.K. on October 06, 2024, 08:45:32 pm
NtO dated 6 Sept - 28 days from date of sevice - I make it today is the last day to pay or appeal.

Register the appeal tonight - even if you lose the appeal you will still  only have to pay the £130 due tonight instead of the £195 if you take no action today.

You can register the appeal online - opt for personal hearing.

Not sure what will be your reasons to persuade the adjudicator to allow the appeal??

Please post a copy of your rejected reps.

(https://i.imgur.com/Xzfci0P.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5MsXyVW.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6v0RtRP.jpeg)



Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on October 06, 2024, 07:16:02 pm
Hi again to everyone,

I would need advice on how to appeal to the London Tribunal about my PCN issue.
Please see the letter of correspondence from the Newham council. Any advice will be appreciated.

As the letter was sent on 06.09.2024 do you know by any chance when is the deadline date that I could respond?
Thanks in advance.


P.S. Link with the letter as again I was unable to upload pictures.
https://imgur.com/a/jWCVkId
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on August 20, 2024, 11:08:02 pm
Thanks for your reply @H C Andersen.

What should i include in my representation, how to form it and what evidences or supporting documents should I attach or include to it?
Is there something like a template that i can follow related to my case or similar one?
thanks in advance 
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: H C Andersen on August 20, 2024, 10:52:09 am
Today is the final day for representation or payment btw.

No. The rules are that reps should be made no later than the end of the period of 28 days beginning on the date of service of the NTO.

NTO dated, and posted, 24 July;
Deemed served: 26th, which is day 1.
Day 28: 22 Aug.

You can make reps online using the web code in the NTO, so you could go to 22nd.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on August 20, 2024, 10:01:52 am
Hi everyone,

any help what with the official representation will be much appreciated, otherwise probably i have to pay the increased rate of the fine, as I don't have much experience dealing with such a cases.
Today is the final day for representation or payment btw.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 28, 2024, 10:06:27 pm
Hi again,

Received the Notice to the owner letter. Pictures are attached in the link below/;

https://imgur.com/a/PVDEFAQ

I'll appreciate any suggestions and help how to construct my representation - points that I can use in my favor .
Thanks in advance. 
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: H C Andersen on July 16, 2024, 11:35:15 am
Exactly! (subject to these being the signs)

If the junction of Henniker and Buxton with Leytonstone is a vehicle entrance into what the map shows as zone S, then as a minimum the sign which applies to your direction of travel (the one on the left) must be 'S', but it isn't, it's SNW with S on the reverse.

The sign on the right is optional or recommended depending on the width of the road, but it cannot substitute for the sign on the left.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 16, 2024, 10:40:04 am
Please see from attached pictures in the link where I entered the zone and signs related to it. The signs itself looks like they should be other way around pointing that I'm leaving zone SNW.
https://imgur.com/a/tFYZEpI

Thanks
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: H C Andersen on July 11, 2024, 05:52:39 pm
Would you pl look at GSV and link where you passed the CPZ entry sign by showing that sign.

Something looks v. odd but first I'll wait for your further details.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 11, 2024, 01:30:14 pm
There aren't any signs there. If you see the picture where Mercedes is parked, this is where I was parked. no signs at all. There is not even a machine where I can check anything as they advised in their response.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Grant Urismo on July 11, 2024, 12:57:36 pm
You've taken a photo of the sign for the parking bay, but that's not where you parked. We need to see any signs for the yellow line where you parked.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 11, 2024, 12:42:37 pm
Hi again,
I've managed to get photos of the street where I received a fine.
Please see the attached in the below link:
https://imgur.com/a/sFGvWxL
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 02, 2024, 11:46:28 pm
Thanks @Incandescent!
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Incandescent on July 02, 2024, 10:43:18 pm
Hi @cp8759, Yes all up to date.
Do I need to go to the street where I was fined to check around all the signs and make pictures of them?
Thanks
Yes
See cp8759 reply #10
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 02, 2024, 09:40:39 pm
Hi @cp8759, Yes all up to date.
Do I need to go to the street where I was fined to check around all the signs and make pictures of them?
Thanks
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 10:55:20 pm
Well the only step to take now is to wait for the notice to owner, and then make a further representation.

Is the address on the V5C up to date?
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: John U.K. on July 01, 2024, 08:43:49 am
For convenience:

(https://i.imgur.com/nsKJEgu.jpeg)


(https://i.imgur.com/6N2AWMO.jpeg)

Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 01, 2024, 02:14:51 am
too late at night :) apologies. Thanks again @FaeLLe

I hope all is good with the link now:
https://imgur.com/a/aRyQSFd
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: FaeLLe on July 01, 2024, 02:05:20 am
@FaeLLe thank you for noticing, appreciated.

The new link with details removed:
https://imgur.com/a/Wh00Dg4

It still has your name in it..
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 01, 2024, 01:34:44 am
@FaeLLe thank you for noticing, appreciated.

The new link with details removed:
https://imgur.com/a/Wh00Dg4
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: FaeLLe on July 01, 2024, 12:52:37 am
Hi again to everyone, I've received a response from the council. Please take a look at the attached letter and advise.
Thanks in advance.

PS. The letter is uploaded via a link, as I could not attach it due to limited space.
https://imgur.com/a/REMOVED

@bono_01 you might want to remove your name and address from the image uploaded.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on July 01, 2024, 12:46:38 am
Hi again to everyone, I've received a response from the council. Please take a look at the attached letter and advise.
Thanks in advance.

PS. The letter is uploaded via a link, as I could not attach it due to limited space.
https://imgur.com/a/3qIQCI3
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 12:12:45 pm
@bono_01 yes that will suffice for present purposes. Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 19, 2024, 01:26:47 pm
Thanks for your reply @cp8759!

To be honest the both signs are there, as i passing them from time to time.

Please see my informal representation, is it enough or need to be more detailed?

Dear Newham Council,

PCN number: PN38651553
Reg Number: RE12NHG

Could you please cancel the fine that was issued to me on 06.05.2024 where I was parked at single yellow lines during the Bank Holiday, as I honestly believed that  there were no restrictions applied on those days.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on May 19, 2024, 11:52:54 am
@bono_01 well you cannot appeal, at this stage you can only make representations to the council.

Based on your route you would have passed two signs, one here https://maps.app.goo.gl/v82xzhPCrWi7y3A57 and another one here https://maps.app.goo.gl/gZa9wqzVtqB2VPt59

When you have time please go back to the junction of Leytonstone Road with Buxton Road and check if the signs are still there and whether they are visible. It does happen that signs go missing, get knocked over and so on. If there is anything noteworthy, please get photos.

Also, and this is very important, you must not make any reference to the question of signs in any of your representations to the council or else they will focus on this when they prepare their evidence for the tribunal.

On top of that the council is likely to reject anything you say, so the wording at this stage is not very important as long as you don't reveal anything that is either self-incriminating, or that might help the council later on. The only real point of submitting informal representations in a case like this is to give the council an opportunity to mess up the response.

In the circumstances I would suggest you make an informal representation explaining that you thought bank holiday parking was permitted, if nothing else this will distract the council from the real issues.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 19, 2024, 10:58:45 am
Thank you for your reply @cp8759 and apologies for late response( I was forced to travel abroad dealing with family matters).


The CPZ zone that I've received the fine is zone S. Exact address where I parked was : 30-4 Oxford Rd, London E15 1DD. Please see picture attached of my route and the marking of the parking spot:
[attachimg=1]

Probably today is my last day that I can submit my appeal?#

If you could guide me how to word the letter to the council will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: cp8759 on May 15, 2024, 12:24:10 am
@bono_01 well the council photos do not show any contravention:

(https://i.imgur.com/abDsOJO.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iXmuWXi.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2o0N6B0.jpeg)

Many councils have got lazy and don't provide the tribunal with adequate evidence of CPZ signage, so I'd suggest you exploit that. The one thing you must not do is suggest to the council that their photos are inadequate, as you don't want to forewarn them.

The traffic order in this case appears to be The Newham (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Order 2011 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1du2wO7YzH6Yc1k_oPKpvln9chxwTIIJo/view) and the relevant entries should be in Part 2 of Schedule 1 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LFXpEyYc9E_iTWVtwX0WCCMcPS6qv07V/view). The order does not mention any controlled parking zones, so that creates an additional argument though it's a rather technical one.

You were parked in zone SSW, you can see a map of the zones here: https://lbnewham.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c213298647e4283a537266c72c1d086

If you work out exactly where you entered the zone, we can investigate if additional arguments about signage can be made.

As a general rule you should always make representations online rather than by post, anything sent in the post is scanned into the computer and the paper copy is shredded, so sending anything in the post is entirely pointless and you might as well submit it straight into their computer.

But don't rush, answer the questions above first please.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Neil B on May 08, 2024, 01:39:04 pm
Most of London's Boroughs do not have Bank Holiday restrictions,
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? I don't know of any borough that doesn't enforce yellow lines on bank holidays unless restrictions don't apply on those days, as reflected by signs and in the relevant traffic order.
In Newham you could have freely parked in any resident permit bay, which they don't enforce on BHs.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 08, 2024, 01:22:47 pm
Thanks a lot for the quick reply!

I can appeal PCN to the council, but could you please advise me what should be my reason to ask them for cancellation of the fine? Should I do it via their website or in writing by post?
Possibly stating that my impression was that on bank holidays restrictions don't apply? and maybe that I've been parking during the bank holiday in different boroughs and there aren't restrictions?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Incandescent on May 08, 2024, 12:29:04 pm
Quote
shoot themselves in the foot
It means in their reply they do not adhere to the regulations or tell you an untruth, thus committing a "procedural impropriety", one of the statutory grounds for cancellation of the PCN.

If you get as far as London Tribunals, the full £130 penalty is in play, but that's all, there are no additional costs.

You can only work out what the odds might be there once the council reply is studied.  It may turn out that the discount is your best option. It can take months before you get to London Tribunals, because the next stage is the Notice to Owner. Only when reps have been declined at that stage can you go to London Tribunals. My view is that you do not have a strong case, having misunderstood yellow line restrictions, but see what the others say.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 08, 2024, 12:04:38 pm
Thanks for clarifying the possible steps for me regarding appealing the PCN.

When you are saying: "the council manage to shoot themselves in the foot when rejecting those reps thus opening up more appeal arguments" what do you mean?

How long do you think the whole procedure will take to reach the London Tribunals stage and then you mean if I lose I have to pay 130£ only? Or there will be other charges on top of that?
Is there a chance that the London Tribunal will judge in my favor? or as you said they stick to loading or boarding passengers? I was left the car parked for at least an hour, so no excuse in this case.

I've parked at single yellow lines as I honestly believed that on Bank Holiday no restrictions applied. And yes car is in my name and address.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Incandescent on May 07, 2024, 02:18:22 pm
We usually advise OPs to submit informal representations against the PCN, because sometimes the council manage to shoot themselves in the foot when rejecting those reps thus opening up more appeal arguments. You can, after that, wait for the Notice to Owner, sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the car, (is this you ?). This is beyond the discount period, so you would be taking some risk. Having said that, most London councils re-offer it because if they don't, it's a no-brainer for the PCN recipient to take them to London Tribunals, as the penalty doesn't increase.  This means the council have the task of preparing an evidence pack which is a PITA for them.
 
If you lose at London Tribunals the full PCN amount is payable.

Please tell us why you parked there, because there are two exemptions to yellow lines, (1) loading, and (2) boarding passengers.
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 07, 2024, 01:14:44 pm
Thanks for the quick reply.

Now after I've dug around I've found that I was mistaken in thinking I'd found some information on an official site, it was the title after a Google search that came from the first London Borough. My bad, I apologize for misleading you.
Most of London's Boroughs do not have Bank Holiday restrictions, but unfortunately, I parked in the wrong one.

So I presume even if I appeal I will still have to pay at the end?
Title: Re: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: Incandescent on May 07, 2024, 12:34:12 pm
Quite where you got the idea that single-yellow lines don't apply on Bank Holidays, I don't know, but all over the UK they apply on all days of the week including Bank Holidays, although Christmas Day may be exempt. However, I may be wrong, so give us a link to this government webpage which would seem to be a "Get out of jail free" ticket !

Of course, councils may not enforce on certain Bank Holidays, but you have to check with them. Only if a sign says "Bank Holidays excepted" can you guarantee no enforcement.

BTW, there is no "court" in the process, but one can take the council to the adjudicators, in this case London Tribunals, once you have submitted formal representations against a Notice to Owner to the council and been rejected.
Title: PCN 01 Parking at single yellow line on Bank Holiday Newham
Post by: bono_01 on May 07, 2024, 11:22:30 am
Good morning everyone and thank you for keeping this forum going and helping so many people with their problems!

Unfortunately another issue with one of the most notorious London boroughs - Newham.

Yesterday I parked on a single yellow line on one of the streets with the impression that on a bank holiday, you can park with no restriction. I even happened to do it in central London - years ago without any problems.
The reality was different and I found a PCN on the windscreen of my car. Then I dug around and found first on the government website that there are no parking restrictions on a single yellow line on a bank holiday. I also saw that most London boroughs do not have restrictions for the same either. However, it turns out that these rules do not apply to this specific neighborhood.

Do I have any chance to appeal to get the fine overturned and on what basis or mission is impossible? I am ready to do whatever it takes, even to court, if there is even a minimal chance of success.

Thanks in advance for any support and advice.

Please find the below links with pictures attached:

(https://i.imgur.com/jOhMsAY.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LPZtUjo.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ybMjXfX.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bfnXBXI.jpeg)

Newham website:
https://parking.newham.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW

PCN: PN38651553
Reg: RE12NHG