Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ChocolateGinger on May 03, 2024, 11:46:23 pm

Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on February 25, 2025, 03:41:47 pm
Thank you MrMustard. If I had been in touch even as last as night perhaps.
There was no way you could have and that's my fault.
Thank you once again.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: mrmustard on February 25, 2025, 03:32:12 pm
Sorry I was unable to help you at literally the last minute.

I would have been a hindrance without having read the file beforehand and it wouldn't have helped the adjudicator, Mr Greenslade, who will give the papers a thorough consideration.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit
Post by: ChocolateGinger on February 25, 2025, 03:28:21 pm
Thank you so much. I have been unwell and going away for a couple of months for medical treatment so I was trying to get my hearing before I leave next week.
I'd emailed and called them and they said they'll revert but didn't. I chased again today and signed on just in case and behold the adjudicator showed up. I explained that the contravention alleges an off street Contravention so it needed terms and conditions of the off street parking places order to users of the car park. He insisted that the sign showed the permit numbers that are allowed and I'd confirmed it was my car and I'd received the PCN. I called his attention to the Order for the estate and showed him the map at page 89. He insisted that I was parked at Nelson Estate. I said yes but on Bronti close which is on street according to the order.
He said he'll look at it later and if there's anything else.

As Hippocrates thankfully pointed out, I said the Council's statement that the fine will increase if I didn't pay is as threat while proceedings are ongoing. He said he'll check the website before he makes his decision. We've just finished so I'm waiting.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Hippocrates on February 20, 2025, 10:27:27 am
Spoke with mrmustard last night. Take your pick! The arguments will be the same and the cases provided in support too.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Hippocrates on February 19, 2025, 08:53:44 pm
@ChocolateGinger Please screenshot the current website page re payment and report back. You can ask for the hearing to be rescheduled to suit you. I suggest you ask mrmustard or me to represent you via video call. We both know this council and vice versa.

Here it is: an illegal threat while an appeal is pending which should be a winner:

The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 very soon. Please pay £130.00 now.


You have already challenged this PCN and we replied on Thu, 23 May 2024. You cannot challenge twice

You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Thu, 28 Nov 2024. You cannot make representations twice.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: mrmustard on February 19, 2025, 07:43:14 pm
I have been emailed asking what my charge is to deal with the tribunal, the answer to which is nothing at all except a donation to the North London Hospice if we prevail.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on January 15, 2025, 05:01:35 am
The letter says if I can't attend they'll go ahead in my absence. I'll ring them  as suggested. Thank you.

I've not sent anything else apart from what I sent to them before this letter.
The letter doesn't state that I should or could send anything further. It does say the authority will provide their response before the hearing.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: H C Andersen on January 11, 2025, 11:00:48 am
+1, you've come this far so why leave being able to attend your appeal in the lap of the health Gods?

What have you submitted so far to the Tribunal?

By way of additional info, here's an extract from the Code of Practice to which they claim to adhere while considering PCNs issued for off-street contraventions:

The Code of Practice is split into two separate parts: Part 1 is concerned with the on-street enforcement activities and sets out the objectives and requirements of Civil Enforcement Officers (CEOs), the requirements of the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and Clamping and Removal procedures. Part 2 sets out the procedures that should be followed when processing PCNs through the various stages in the back office.

As I warned you, they're in denial about their off-street responsibilities and powers.

What does contravention of an on-street restriction imply by virtue of the driver holding a licence? That a contravention carries a prescribed penalty.

What does contravention of an off-street restriction imply when conveyed only by on-street signs? IMO, nothing.

Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: John U.K. on January 10, 2025, 09:55:49 pm
Quote
I will have to email them to conduct it over the phone as I have a long awaited consultant appointment ending about the time the hearing will start so I won't be able to arrive in time.

And if the consultant is running late?

Telephone LT, explain and ask for new date to suit you: LT are normallly helpful.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on January 10, 2025, 08:34:16 pm
Hello everyone,
My hearing will be in about 2 weeks. Please see attached.

I will have to email them to conduct it over the phone as I have a long awaited consultant appointment ending about the time the hearing will start so I won't be able to arrive in time.
Is this advisable or I should pursue some other options?
Also, do I need to submit anything for this hearing or what I've sent in already is sufficient?
Please help, how do I win this?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on December 11, 2024, 07:01:08 pm
Please see attached the Council's reply.
They've rejected my appeal.
Their only response to the substantive point is that Bronti Close falls under Nelson Estate but nothing in response to the fact that the Estates Map shows it as on street parking.

I'm about to draft my appeal to the London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators.
Should I simply use my previous appeal or I need to set it out differently or add other points?

Thank you for your time and considerations.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on November 20, 2024, 04:01:27 pm
Thank you HC A.
I shall use your draft in the main body of my representation.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: H C Andersen on November 20, 2024, 09:42:27 am
OP, let's help you focus.

As cp wrote some posts ago, the Permit Holders sign has NO legal effect off-street which is where this contravention is alleged to have occured by virtue of the grounds.

Pl don't fret about your grounds of representation, frankly they're not essential although desirable to help the wee unfortunates who work for the council understand what they're supposed to be looking for.

Remember, the council erected this sign pursuant to their duty* to mark restrictions with traffic signs, so is an officer of the council going to accept that they're wrong? They've made a real pig's ear of their order, but this is their concern, not yours.



PCN *******;
I refer the authority to ss 2 (Interpretation) and 17.1(Traffic Signs) of the relevant order - *******.

As you will see, s2 defines a 'traffic sign' as a sign 'prescribed or authorised under s64 Road Traffic Regulation Act' which states the following:

'traffic sign' means '..any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads...warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—

The emphasis is mine(such emphasis isn't necessary in the Act itself because its scope i.e. Road Traffic Regulation is adequate and self-explanatory).

Why the council have chosen to use 'traffic signs' on their own, which have no legal effect off-street, in an order restricting off-street parking only they would know. But the legal position is that they have no effect in conveying off-street restrictions which, as you will see from the PCN, is the alleged contravention. The PCN must be cancelled.

Whether you wish to put this under 'contravention did not occur' or 'penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case' I leave to the authority. Indeed whether having cancelled my PCN officers wish to raise with their traffic/housing estate colleagues that the order is not enforceable as worded and with the descriptions of prohibitions currently used, I also leave to you. 

As I have set out the detailed legal position above I should expect a response in similar fashion, should the authority believe that the PCN is enforceable and can support such a belief with legal references. Otherwise a simple 'we have cancelled your PCN' would suffice.


OP, for your info only. Pl delete the '*' in my draft.
*- Not under the Local Authorities' Traffic Order Regs(which apply to roads) but by virtue of the duty the council have placed on themselves under s17.1 of their order. (An Order has the force of law and the council is as bound by its provisions as much as anyone else).
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on November 20, 2024, 02:28:50 am
I'm about to submit my representation to the Notice to owner.

I intend to tick the first option ie "The alleged contravention did not occur."
The 6th option "There has been a procedural impropriety on behalf of the authority" comes a close second.

I'll be grateful for your comments to my representation below.

I appeal this PCN on the grounds below.
I didn’t see the sign stating it was for permit holders only.
I drove down Wandsworth Place looking for parking. At the corner/the junction there was a big high white van coming out of Bronti Close and must have obscured the sign. The traders there use high vans so the Council would’ve been aware of this. The sign was small, mid height and only on one side ie the on-coming side blocked by the van.
So I did not see the sign as I turned right. I turned into the street and there was a parking spot on my side of the road, so I parked so the shop assistant could load the 20kg bag of rice and 15l of oil.
I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, Con 85 Off Street Car Park Contraventions. There is as a result, a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park.
As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of parking, and stating that failure to comply with the requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in a penalty charge notice being served.
At this location there is no signage at all informing users that they are in an off-street car park, so there is nothing to advise motorists that this is an off-street car park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to inform users that the bay markings and signs are anything more than merely advisory.
I would suggest it is wholly improper for an authority to fail to convey the requirements of a parking places order or even tell motorists that the land in question is a designated off-street car park, and then say "Surprise! you have a statutory PCN!" when the motorist had no way of knowing there are any enforceable restrictions at all.
I had been given no information about the fact that this was an off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any restrictions, let alone what those restrictions might be.
In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 27, 2024, 12:35:02 am
Quote from: Incandescent on October 26, 2024, 01:00:48 am
As far as I know, they must re-serve the Notice to Owner, the document you have not received.


Thank you.
is there a way to submit my representation whether or not I get the Notice to Owner?
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on October 26, 2024, 01:00:48 am
As far as I know, they must re-serve the Notice to Owner, the document you have not received.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 26, 2024, 12:21:39 am
I've received an order from the County Court revoking the order for recovery of the unpaid penalty charge and cancellation of the charge certificate.

It's dated 10th October.

It states that the LA?CA may still take further action and to contact them.

What do you advice I do next please?

On the Council's website it says the following:
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Sat, 30 Nov 2024. Please pay £130.00 now.
You have already challenged this PCN and we replied on Thu, 23 May 2024. You cannot challenge twice.

Thank you.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 10, 2024, 12:38:54 am
@Incandescent, thank you.
Done.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on October 04, 2024, 05:51:33 pm
The form covers enforcement using PCNs under two regulations.

Reg 9 PCNs are served at the roadside, and only informal reps can be submitted against these. A formal representation must be submitted when the council serve the Notice to Owner.This is because the law makes the keeper of the vehicle responsible for PCNs even if not driving. So if reps are submitted, and rejected, and the PCN recipient does not pay-up, the council must issue a Notice to Owner if they want to carry on enforcing.

Reg 10 PCNs cover moving traffic offences, (plus driveaways when a Reg 9 PCN could not be served). These are sent to the keeper of the vehicle, and formal reps (like against an NtO), can be submitted against it. No Notice to Owner is issued, because the PCN is sent to the owner.

So the form covers (1) non-receipt of a Notice to Owner, or (2) non-receipt of a Reg 10 PCN. As your PCN was a Reg 9, you can confidently tick the box for " I did not receive the PCN/Notice to Owner".
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 04, 2024, 02:52:29 pm
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:39:02 am
Here are links to the Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge.

https://ibb.co/4KWLLfb
https://ibb.co/5vLKQKR

Please help.

The four options on the TE3 are:

• You paid the penalty charge notice in full. You must provide details of the date payment was made, the method of payment i.e. cash, cheque etc. and who the payment was made to. Please note you may be asked to provide proof of payment upon request.
 
• You did not receive the notice to owner/penalty charge notice.

• You made representations about the penalty charge to the Local Authority within 28 days service of the notice to owner/penalty charge notice and you did not receive a reply (rejection notice).

• You appealed against the Local Authority’s decision to reject your representation within 28 days service of the rejection notice, but you had no response to your appeal.

No.2 seems the closest to my situation.
I did not receive the NTO. I received the PCN which was on the car windscreen but when I appealed I was told to wait for the NTO? I didn't receive it so I couldn't make any representations.

Is ticking no 2, signing and emailing the correct procedure for this form if one didn't receive the NTO?
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 05:44:19 pm
No I didn't get them.
Yes it is, I received it last week though I had been away for 3 weeks so it might have arrived few weeks ago.
I'm travelling today for 3 weeks and will appreciate confirmation whether or not what I'm proposing is the right.

Thank you.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: stamfordman on October 02, 2024, 01:20:46 pm
Is the address correct on the order for recovery.

To confirm - you didn't get:

Notice to owner
Charge certificate

?
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 12:28:11 pm
Quote from: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 12:07:15 pm
Read through this thread carefully
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/

Any questions, please ask here.
Thanks. The relevant part of that thread simply gives instructions to tick option 2 and email the form which is what I'm asking if it's the right thing to do.
So I suppose the answer is yes, I should go with option 2.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 12:07:15 pm
Read through this thread carefully
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/

Any questions, please ask here.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 10:02:48 am
Quote from: Enceladus on October 02, 2024, 06:54:07 am
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:32:41 am
I'm unable to upload images so here's a link to the rejection of appeal.

https://ibb.co/QbJYZYJ
https://ibb.co/qFLHrqR
You've redacted all of the useful information. When posting documents it's only necessary to redact your name & address where present. Please leave everything else visible especially all reference numbers, times, dates, locations and anything related to the Council/Enforcement Authority. All as per the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the forum.
I believed I'd only removed my name and address from the image I uploaded directly to this website.
The date by which to pay or reply is 4th October.

Can I select did not receive the NTO as I didn't receive it.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 08:59:50 am
Quote from: Incandescent on October 02, 2024, 08:50:31 am
You should have received : -
- Notice to Owner
- Charge Certificated
before the Order for Recovery was issued.

Please post the OfR asap.

@Incandescent - OfR is in post Reply#15

(https://i.ibb.co/WGnXX3r/IMG-20241002-033536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4KWLLfb)

(https://i.ibb.co/ctQYWYr/IMG-20241002-033558.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5vLKQKR)

Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on October 02, 2024, 08:50:31 am
You should have received : -
- Notice to Owner
- Charge Certificated
before the Order for Recovery was issued.

Please post the OfR asap.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 08:10:44 am
Quote
I'm unable to upload images so here's a link to the rejection of appeal.
The links work fine but you have heavily cropped the images.

Please repost with the entirety of the pages, redacting only yr name & address.
What is the date on the NoR?
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Enceladus on October 02, 2024, 06:54:07 am
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:32:41 am
I'm unable to upload images so here's a link to the rejection of appeal.

https://ibb.co/QbJYZYJ
https://ibb.co/qFLHrqR
You've redacted all of the useful information. When posting documents it's only necessary to redact your name & address where present. Please leave everything else visible especially all reference numbers, times, dates, locations and anything related to the Council/Enforcement Authority. All as per the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the forum.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:39:02 am
Here are links to the Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge.

https://ibb.co/4KWLLfb
https://ibb.co/5vLKQKR

Please help.

The four options on the TE3 are:

• You paid the penalty charge notice in full. You must provide details of the date payment was made, the method of payment i.e. cash, cheque etc. and who the payment was made to. Please note you may be asked to provide proof of payment upon request.
 
• You did not receive the notice to owner/penalty charge notice.

• You made representations about the penalty charge to the Local Authority within 28 days service of the notice to owner/penalty charge notice and you did not receive a reply (rejection notice).

• You appealed against the Local Authority’s decision to reject your representation within 28 days service of the rejection notice, but you had no response to your appeal.

No.2 seems the closest to my situation.
I did not receive the NTO. I received the PCN which was on the car windscreen but when I appealed I was told to wait for the NTO? I didn't receive it so I couldn't make any representations.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:32:41 am
I'm unable to upload images so here's a link to the rejection of appeal.

https://ibb.co/QbJYZYJ
https://ibb.co/qFLHrqR
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit
Post by: ChocolateGinger on October 02, 2024, 03:21:08 am
Attached is the rejection (dated 25.5.24) of my appeal.
It says, "do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives".

I've not received this form.

I've received an Order for Recovery and have until 4.10.24 to pay £205 or make a witness statement on any of 4 grounds if it applies.
I'll post that next.

I didn't receive any other letter from them.

I was out of the country from the end of June till early August and had a major surgery so when I returned to the country I didn't return home but went to stay with family to help support my recuperation.

 
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 11:24:45 pm
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.
@ChocolateGinger well let's see it please.

Also this is a bit concerning:

(https://i.imgur.com/AGS2Tc2.png)

You may want to contact the council and ask if the NTO has been issued, and if so whether they can email you a copy.

If all else fails, you might just have to send a "blind" representation by post to prevent them from issuing a charge certificate.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2024, 11:57:01 am
+1

If Southwark have a page for a PCN's status/history you should be able to keeep an eye on that. You could also check it now to see if it has been sent and not yet arrived.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on June 19, 2024, 11:37:09 am
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.

It appears ime to make a formal representation when I receive the NTO. I have not received that yet.
I'm travelling for 3 weeks this weekend but shall keep an eye on my emails

If I've got this wrong please correct me.

Thank you.
I
The NtO is sent by mail to the name and address on the V5 Regtistration Certificate for the car, not by email.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.

It appears ime to make a formal representation when I receive the NTO. I have not received that yet.
I'm travelling for 3 weeks this weekend but shall keep an eye on my emails

If I've got this wrong please correct me.

Thank you.
I
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on May 07, 2024, 11:13:01 pm
Thank you CP8759, especially for providing the Order, pointing out where the estate map is in the Order and going as far as writing out the appeal!

I'd spent so much time trying to find the estate in the Order and as I came to draft my reply I saw you'd actually stated the page it's on! You are very helpful and much appreciated.

The map shows Bronti Close is on street parking and following from your comment and stated in your draft re Con 85 being off street, I Googled what that means and it shows that Con 85 is a contravention under Off Street Car Park Contraventions! The street is on street parking, but they've used off street con.

I'll submit the appeal as stated and hope they concede and I don't have to go all the way to the tribunal.

I did try repeatedly to access Igmur.com. On my phone there's no "New Post" anywhere on the screen and it won't let me sign in into my newly set up account.
On my laptop the "New Post" is seen at the top left corner of the page but it doesn't open to a usable page when I click on it. It opens to a page with the sign up and sign in options in the top right and Imgur on the left but nowhere to actually upload photos of the PCN.

I was attempting to upload the PCN (which I'd uploaded on IBB.com) to Igmur for ease of viewing the PCN in my post. As I was experiencing difficulty, I posted the reg and PCN which were not visible on the PCN so that readers can view the parking officer's photos if they wish.
I wasn't trying to upload photos of the car, only the PCN. I prefer photos of the car to not be in the post please.

Thank you once again.

Quote from: cp8759 on May 05, 2024, 04:08:50 pm
Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:


..... The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park....
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: cp8759 on May 05, 2024, 04:08:50 pm
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on May 04, 2024, 10:05:30 pm
I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.
Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:

(https://i.imgur.com/V7HrYJR.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ncyFeGS.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uiZiDNe.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gpIVmRf.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vKNEj7x.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nzb0EoS.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LK8EpWY.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fDrFzHm.jpeg)

This should be easy enough:

Dear London Borough of Southwark,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park.

As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of parking, and stating that failure to comply with the requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in a penalty charge notice being served.

At this location there appears to be no signage at all informing users that they are in an off-street car park, so there is nothing to advise motorists that this is an off-street car park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to inform users that the bay markings and signs are anything more than merely advisory.

I would suggest it is wholly improper for an authority to fail to convey the requirements of a parking places order or even tell motorists that the land in question is a designated off-street car park, and then say "Surprise! you have a statutory PCN!" when the motorist had no way of knowing there are any enforceable restrictions at all.

I had been given no information about the fact that this was an off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any restrictions, let alone what those restrictions might be.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Obviously don't expect the council to concede, this will likely have to go to the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on May 05, 2024, 11:46:15 am
Still not able to sign up to that website.
I see that it's possible to see photos taken by the officer.

I'll have access to my laptop and the PCN later today but in the meantime can you please use the information to access the site?

https://pcnevidence.southwarkparking.co.uk/pcnonline/index.php

JK13271926
PO70TXC

Thank you.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on May 05, 2024, 12:59:48 am
Sorry, it seems I missed your buried links which is easy to do in the early hours of the morning !



Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on May 04, 2024, 10:05:30 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on May 04, 2024, 12:46:26 am
@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEYPgq-DQv_Ua-xz__gNg97WshQGr28D/view) and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
Thank you for your advice. I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region. I also tried using the Facebook sign up option not just email but it says they have a problem with Facebook.
The only details missing are the colour, make and reg.
I'm on my phone at the moment and shall try it on my laptop.

Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on May 04, 2024, 09:55:29 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on May 04, 2024, 12:05:33 am
, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.
Thank you.
My heading stipulates as required, the body explains what happened and I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.

Apologies if I've missed what you're pointing me to,  I'm more than willing to provide the info you need.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: cp8759 on May 04, 2024, 12:46:26 am
@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEYPgq-DQv_Ua-xz__gNg97WshQGr28D/view) and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
Title: Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: Incandescent on May 04, 2024, 12:05:33 am
Quote
Please is there any way out at all?
Well, possibly there is, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.

Do be aware that many of what seem to be "no hope" cases are won because the enforcing council are not obeying the law either !
Title: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
Post by: ChocolateGinger on May 03, 2024, 11:46:23 pm
On Saturday I parked on a road I thought was free parking and received a PCN.

I drove down a road called Walworth Place where signs meant free parking. I couldn't find a space so I turned right (Bronti Close) and parked on the left where there was a spot.

When I came back I saw that I had a ticket (https://ibb.co/album/HhTMv3). I was shocked as I wasn't parked on a yellow line and had thought it was free parking.

I read the ticket (https://ibb.co/album/HhTMv3) and it said I'd failed to park with a Valid Virtual permit or Valid Physical Permit.

I walked out to the corner, looked around again and noticed the sign for Permit Holders Only (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4875616,-0.0946792,3a,48.9y,62.78h,85.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNG3-4l2G28xzxarzsgdJug!2e0!5s20220501T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
I didn't see the sign when I was going in and I didn't see any permit on the two cars before mine.

I'm so sorry about this especially as before leaving home my DH had reminded me to be careful and I had said I would be very careful. GBP65 is a lot of money.

Please is there any way out at all?