Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Teacholic on May 02, 2024, 09:59:04 pm
-
Well done for persisting with the case.
-
Hi. I’m not sure why they cancelled it, tbh. I was expecting it to go to Tribunal. I sent them what I mentioned in reply 17, emails between residents association and local MP outlining severity of the letters delivery issue and photo of this issue mentioned in our estate newsletter. 2 days after I sent this additional evidence, I called and requested the DVD. We think maybe that’s why they cancelled it. after watching the video/dvd we think they were basing contravention on stopping in that red bay rather than double red lines. When watching the video you can see at 9:23:47 A BLUE CAR HAS JUST LEFT THE RED BOX BAY AND OUR CAR STARTED TO REVRSE TO THE BAY. THE PHOTOS FROM THE TFL WEBSITE ARE DATED 21:23:50, 21:24:00, 21:24:38 WHEN THE CAR IS ALREADY IN THE BAY.
(Sorry for the capital letters they are my own notes I made after seeing the DVD.) So based on that we think that the contravention they claimed we committed hadn’t actually happened. Could it be they checked after I asked for DVD and realised it? Or because there was email trail with local MP regarding the letter delivery- the most unlikely reason in our opinion. Either way, I’m happy :)
-
Outcome:
(https://i.imgur.com/Jbs9g1J.png)
Well done @Teacholic, it would be useful to know what you sent. I can't recall any case where TFL has cancelled a PCN voluntarily under such circumstances.
-
You are not going to get a CCJ from the enforcement process.
It is difficult to see in what way provision of the required information will expose you to additional risk. The specific history can also be relevant.
As has been mentioned it will end up on the public register should you go to tribunal. The certain way of avoiding this is simply to pay.
You can safely assume there is far more sensitive data than a VRM associated with your actual name and address easily available. However I understand your caution.
-
Hi again. I definitely have a poor understanding of the process. As I didn't understand it well, I did not follow on your steps as I didn't know whether that puts me at risk of CCJ or not. I have looked up CCJ online and called Citizens Advice and it provided me with information that you can indeed received CCJ. From my reading, if Tribunal doesn't work I can pay or then go to Country Court.If the partial amount of the debt is due (I feel I should pay £160, not £240) then CCJ will be issued?. I did this reading couple of days ago and not remembering the actual steps. So after Order f recovery goes through, it looked like I will get the CCJ anyway - that was based on my initial argument that contravention did occur but I was fighting the £80 increase due to letter delivery issues in my areas.
No CCJ will ever be issued no matter what. Even if the bailiffs take your car and sell it at auction there will still not be a CCJ on your credit record, it is simply impossible to get a CCJ from a PCN so please stop going on about this.
In practice if you lose at the tribunal then you should just pay, the county court just provides an enforcement mechanism because the tribunal does not have an enforcement mechanism of its own, but it's a purely administrative process to get the debt passed over to bailiffs, you don't get to argue your case again in the county court.
If Citizen's Advice told you you could get a CCJ, then either you asked them the wrong question, or they don't know what they're talking about. You can get a CCJ for a private parking charge, maybe they got mixed up with that?
I understand and agree that the TFL did not do anything wrong, a it is Royal Mail issue, however, I'm not expecting cancelling the whole PCN, but just increase of £80. I was happy to pay £160 if they took off extra £80 they added - yes, not they fault but neither mine, there is documented issue with letters not being delivered and gone missing where I live. Is there no legal grounds for reducing to £160?
That's not really the line of business we're in, the objective we generally pursue is to get the PCN cancelled altogether. Especially if there was no contravention, it would be mad to throw away £160 for nothing, you'd be better off giving the money to charity.
-
I have indeed provided additional evidence for TFL today that included email with resident association conforming the issue and copies of their communication with the Royal Mail and the local MP regarding this. Realistically I’ most likely will get Notice of Rejection that then will allow me to appeal to the London Tribunal.
@Teacholic that would be unfortunate as it would limit both the chances of a winning appeal, and the time available to formulate such an appeal.
I think the London Tribunal will accept the appeal under ‘The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ - because I have not received PCN due to Royal Mail letter delivery issues that I can prove and think the judge or whoever makes the decision would cancel the charge or increase.
No, that's not how this works, that's not how any of this works: you don't get out of a penalty charge simply because a letter was lost in the post. It's not the fault of TFL if a document was lost in the post and they don't lose their ability to collect a penalty simply because of that.
@H C Andersen thanks for the link outlining procedures relating to PCNs. It re-assures me that it will not go straight into Country Court. In all honestly, because we are planing to move within couple-ish of years, I do not want to risk having the debt registered and CCJ on my record and difficulty having it ‘set aside’ or cancelled and still showing up 1-2 years later.
Again, that's not how any of this works: a PCN does not result in a CCJ, at worst it results in an Order for Recovery and while an OfR can be enforce as if it were a CCJ, it isn't a CCJ and it doesn't come up on your credit history. That's also why you cannot have it set-aside as you would do with a CCJ. For reasons which I won't go into, you would have no cause of action against Royal Mail either.
[/quote]
Hi again. I definitely have a poor understanding of the process. As I didn't understand it well, I did not follow on your steps as I didn't know whether that puts me at risk of CCJ or not. I have looked up CCJ online and called Citizens Advice and it provided me with information that you can indeed received CCJ. From my reading, if Tribunal doesn't work I can pay or then go to Country Court.If the partial amount of the debt is due (I feel I should pay £160, not £240) then CCJ will be issued?. I did this reading couple of days ago and not remembering the actual steps. So after Order f recovery goes through, it looked like I will get the CCJ anyway - that was based on my initial argument that contravention did occur but I was fighting the £80 increase due to letter delivery issues in my areas.
[/quote]
@cp8759 & @H C Andersen do you think my appeal to London Tribunal under ‘ The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ will be accepted? Are there any other grounds I can appeal the PCN charge that you can see with posted information below, including the photos?
[/quote]
"Based on your current proposed arguments, there is no possibility of this being accepted because TFL did not do anything wrong and it's not their fault if the postman delivered the PCN to another address or even if he threw it into the Thames."
[/quote] [/quote]
I understand and agree that the TFL did not do anything wrong, a it is Royal Mail issue, however, I'm not expecting cancelling the whole PCN, but just increase of £80. I was happy to pay £160 if they took off extra £80 they added - yes, not they fault but neither mine, there is documented issue with letters not being delivered and gone missing where I live. Is there no legal grounds for reducing to £160?
-
Hi,
So I popped back to where alleged contravention happened. Bad luck there was a highway maintenance track making it harder to see the bay marking.
Nonetheless, there is a red route sign at the beginning of the bay, to the left (just before the black bin, on the photo I attached there is a maintenance truck, the sign is facing the truck)). That sign says "red route; no stopping on any day 7am-7pm; except 10am-4pm loading max 20 mins, disabled max 3h". I attached the photos.
However, We were talking and wondering whether the PCN was issued not for stopping in the bay but on the bus stop and/or on double solid red lines. If you look at the google street view you posted https://maps.app.goo.gl/4ehjRmy9UMUazjis6 after the bay marking there is a bus stop and double red line. From the traffic cameras photo it looks like car is on the bus stop, overlaps with double red lines. We think that's what the PCN is for actually.
Supposedly we got the PCN for stopping on double red lines/bus stop, would you be able to the tell from traffic camera photos with certainty that we stopped on double red lines? Is the evidence just from this camera if all the photos they provided with PCN is from the same angle? I've not ordered DVD from the tfl yet - planning to do that tomorrow.
Thanks for your help :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I have indeed provided additional evidence for TFL today that included email with resident association conforming the issue and copies of their communication with the Royal Mail and the local MP regarding this. Realistically I’ most likely will get Notice of Rejection that then will allow me to appeal to the London Tribunal.
@Teacholic that would be unfortunate as it would limit both the chances of a winning appeal, and the time available to formulate such an appeal.
I think the London Tribunal will accept the appeal under ‘The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ - because I have not received PCN due to Royal Mail letter delivery issues that I can prove and think the judge or whoever makes the decision would cancel the charge or increase.
No, that's not how this works, that's not how any of this works: you don't get out of a penalty charge simply because a letter was lost in the post. It's not the fault of TFL if a document was lost in the post and they don't lose their ability to collect a penalty simply because of that.
@H C Andersen thanks for the link outlining procedures relating to PCNs. It re-assures me that it will not go straight into Country Court. In all honestly, because we are planing to move within couple-ish of years, I do not want to risk having the debt registered and CCJ on my record and difficulty having it ‘set aside’ or cancelled and still showing up 1-2 years later.
Again, that's not how any of this works: a PCN does not result in a CCJ, at worst it results in an Order for Recovery and while an OfR can be enforce as if it were a CCJ, it isn't a CCJ and it doesn't come up on your credit history. That's also why you cannot have it set-aside as you would do with a CCJ. For reasons which I won't go into, you would have no cause of action against Royal Mail either.
@cp8759 & @H C Andersen do you think my appeal to London Tribunal under ‘ The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ will be accepted? Are there any other grounds I can appeal the PCN charge that you can see with posted information below, including the photos?
Based on your current proposed arguments, there is no possibility of this being accepted because TFL did not do anything wrong and it's not their fault if the postman delivered the PCN to another address or even if he threw it into the Thames.
I think you mentioned wanting TFL to commit procedural impropriety. So far they have not been a procedural impropriety I use as grounds for appeal to the Tribunal?
I can't see any so far, however while you're getting somewhat carried away with irrelevant matters, it's always good to go back to basics.
The car appears to be stopped in this bay: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MoseiV9yxiJi6QYj9
The sign on Google street view says no stopping from 7 am to 7 pm, and the photos are timed at 9:23 and 9:24 pm, so on the face of it there is no contravention. I would suggest you go back and get some updates photos of the signs. It might be that the restrictions have changed, but if they're still as seen in the Google picture from January 2022 then it really is open and shut. I have checked the traffic orders I have for this red route (copies here (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SWd8mgvdvVVYRSTBUeZlJMpzuYxQJLyF)) and none have been made between January 2022 and 6 September 2023 when I got them, but I'll check if any more orders have been made since.
It's also worth noting that while the bay is clearly there, in the photos TFL has extracted from the video there doesn't appear to be an upright sign for the bay at all, so even if there's a new traffic order there could well be a winning appeal based on lack of signage:
(https://i.imgur.com/d2ehZv1.png)
Of course nothing beats going back to the location to get some updated photos close-up.
-
Continuation of documentation upload - Late representation update confirmation and some evidence I uploaded (emails of resident association to local MP re letters delivery issue).
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Continuation from previous reply. Attached documents: Late representation disregard front and back, representation update page 1 and 2 from today (07 May).
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Continuation form a previous reply. See page 2 or updated PCN status as 1st attachment. Charge Certificate front and back, late representation receipt. Late representation details from 08/04/2024 are below:
“Hallo,
I’m xxxxx, the registered keeper of the vehicle. I’d like to clarify I was not driving and driving at the time of contravention. It was my partner taut is also a second insured driver that stopped on red route. I’m seen getting into a passenger seat on the photo.
I’m happy to pay original discounted PCN fee as only just found out about the PCN penalty. We have had issues with mail delivery via Royal Mail on the estate we live at. This is a second occasion within 4 months that important letter was not delivered to us. Therefore we have not received your 1st letter, dated 12/02. We have now filed official complained to Royal Mail regarding issue of mail delivery. The reference number is xxxxxx
We were also abroad until after Easter and opened our correspondence only the weekend gone. This is when we found out about the PCN notice.
Could I please ask you to communicate with me via email: xxxxxxxx or recorded signed delivery due to mail delivery issue?
Kind regards,
Xxxx”
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.
This.
In any case if you eventually end up with an appeal to the tribunal, regardless of the outcome your name and number plate, together with the reasons for the adjudicator's decision, will all be published on the statutory register at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ for the whole world to see. So the real question is, what is there to gain in hiding this information until after the case is over?
We've had plenty of cases where people have not followed our advice, have decided they knew best, and it didn't end well, see these cases:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/
In the event the appeal is ultimately lost it might be that someone looks at the details (once they're all published online anyway) and goes "ah-ha you could have argued X Y and Z", but at that point it's too late as you only get one shot at persuading the adjudicator, so it's better to go all the investigative work up-front.
@cp8759 Thank you. It is clearer to me wha you'd prefer to have the car's registration number for.
I still do not feel comfortable with my car's registration details being on a public forum or anyone else having it, which combined with my PNC number notice will give an access to my sensitive data (email address) and my image on TFL's website - I am on the photos. I'm sure you can appreciate how some people will not be okay with that. While my car registration will be posted in the appeal eventually, it will not be linked to my personal image/photos, my email address (from which you will gain my last name) etc, and it will not be publicised on the forums like this. By providing you the car registration number it will expose me to scams and identity fraud that is not that challenging to achieve in the modern time by fraudsters. Regrettably my family has had some experience of sensitive info stolen and misused and dealt with aftermath and the negative consequences. Perhaps it makes it clearer why my position is the way it is, although to some it might seem ‘paranoid’. Upon considering your point and weighing in pros and cos I'm not going o provide the car registration details. However, it seems that you do not really need it anyway, as I can just upload everything here. I hope you can still provide help (that I deeply appreciate, by the way) and support while respecting my decision.
I attached traffic cameras photos and update of PCN status here (page 1, for page 2 and other documents see other replied that will be on page 2 of this thread). I’ll create a separate replies to include all the other relevant information (sensitive and identifiable information deducted) so it is easier to review.
UPDATE WHERE I AM IN THE PROCESS
I have indeed provided additional evidence for TFL today that included email with resident association conforming the issue and copies of their communication with the Royal Mail and the local MP regarding this. Realistically I’ most likely will get Notice of Rejection that then will allow me to appeal to the London Tribunal. I think the London Tribunal will accept the appeal under ‘The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ - because I have not received PCN due to Royal Mail letter delivery issues that I can prove and think the judge or whoever makes the decision would cancel the charge or increase.
@H C Andersen thanks for the link outlining procedures relating to PCNs. It re-assures me that it will not go straight into Country Court. In all honestly, because we are planing to move within couple-ish of years, I do not want to risk having the debt registered and CCJ on my record and difficulty having it ‘set aside’ or cancelled and still showing up 1-2 years later. So. I’d rather pay extra £80 if Tribunal rejects the appeal and try to get this money repaid by Royal Mail instead.
From that link H C Anderson sent:
“Notice of Appeal
This is the form which the enforcement authority should send you their Notice of Rejection. The grounds on which the adjudicator may allow your appeal are the same as for making representations:
* The contravention did not occur;
* You were not the owner of the vehicle at the relevant time;
* The vehicle was parked by someone in control of it without the owner’s consent;
* The vehicle is owned by a hire firm who have supplied the name and address of the hirer;
* The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;
* There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority;
* The Traffic Order allegedly contravened is invalid;
* The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle.
* The penalty charge has already been paid.
The adjudicator can only allow an appeal if one of these grounds applies. Adjudicators cannot allow appeals for other reasons, e.g. mitigating circumstances, although they can refer the matter back to the enforcement authority for reconsideration if there are compelling reasons for doing so.”
@cp8759 & @H C Andersen do you think my appeal to London Tribunal under ‘ The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ will be accepted? Are there any other grounds I can appeal the PCN charge that you can see with posted information below, including the photos? I think you mentioned wanting TFL to commit procedural impropriety. So far they have not been a procedural impropriety I use as grounds for appeal to the Tribunal?
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.
This.
In any case if you eventually end up with an appeal to the tribunal, regardless of the outcome your name and number plate, together with the reasons for the adjudicator's decision, will all be published on the statutory register at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ for the whole world to see. So the real question is, what is there to gain in hiding this information until after the case is over?
We've had plenty of cases where people have not followed our advice, have decided they knew best, and it didn't end well, see these cases:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/
In the event the appeal is ultimately lost it might be that someone looks at the details (once they're all published online anyway) and goes "ah-ha you could have argued X Y and Z", but at that point it's too late as you only get one shot at persuading the adjudicator, so it's better to go all the investigative work up-front.
-
Your PCN relates to a parking contravention.
You have stated in your correspondence that you did not receive the PCN at all, not that it was delivered late.
It is therefore the case that the following applies:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process#cc
What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.
-
Yes, it is true to some extent. The contravention actually took place, my partner stopped on the red route, I’m not denying it, but arguing the increase of the charge.
But what do you guys need the car registration number for in the process of helping with this case, whether messages privately to you or posted on the group forum - it is still not clear to me why would informational forum need that info. In what way it helps to advise regarding the next steps and whether the law was upheld by the TFL? Well it would be helpful to be able to see the PCN status and photos, but you can send me the registration privately if your prefer. However your partner might want to consider that the registration is on show for everyone to see every time the car is parked or driven down the road, so it's hard to see what difference it would make it you put it on here.
You should order the DVD in any event.
It's hard to see what point there is in responding to TFL, they are unlikely to accept that the original PCN was not served but if you follow the TEC process then they have no choice as it's no longer up to them.
More importantly it gives TFL a good chance of committing a procedural impropriety.
-
Well it would be helpful to be able to see the PCN status and photos, but you can send me the registration privately if your prefer. However your partner might want to consider that the registration is on show for everyone to see every time the car is parked or driven down the road, so it's hard to see what difference it would make it you put it on here.
You should order the DVD in any event.
It's hard to see what point there is in responding to TFL, they are unlikely to accept that the original PCN was not served but if you follow the TEC process then they have no choice as it's no longer up to them.
More importantly it gives TFL a good chance of committing a procedural impropriety.
-
@
In parallel, please call TFL next week on 0343 222 3333 and ask them for a copy of the CCTV footage, they will send you a DVD in the post.
I can see photos of the cameras caught the intervention on the TFL website. They are very clear. Do I still need a DVD? Can they decline because I have photos on tfl website? Is this to buy me some time?
@ Also please give us the number plate, as explained in the READ ME FIRST guidance, this should not be redacted.
my partner wasn’t too comfortable with advertising it and on public forum. Can I ask what is the registration number needed for? I genuinely do not know, not trying to be difficult.
-
@Teacholic you need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/
Please confirm that you understand the steps you need to follow
Hi. So I checked the TFl website (see the attachment)and my PCN is on hold. So my debt should be registered with TEC on 15/05, isn’t it?
Are you saying that I do not send additional info to the TFL (as they requested in the letter from the 24th of April? And instead send the TE9 form on the 15/05 or 16/05 when debt is registered with TEC?
What happens after TE9 form is submitted, and possible outcomes? Would any of those include having CCJ issued?
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@Teacholic you need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/
Please confirm that you understand the steps you need to follow.
In parallel, please call TFL next week on 0343 222 3333 and ask them for a copy of the CCTV footage, they will send you a DVD in the post.
Also please give us the number plate, as explained in the READ ME FIRST guidance (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), this should not be redacted.
-
@Teacholic this can likely be easily dealt with but before we can give you any advice we need to know for sure what has happened based on seeing the documents, rather than relying on your summary of what you think has happened. If nothing else because I suspect TFL might have committed a procedural impropriety, which could get the PCN cancelled altogether.
Please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) and post up all the paperwork you have received from TFL (we don't need to see the private parking charge you've referred to), and everything you've sent to TFL.
Hi. Thanks so much for thinking about this case more. I attached now the letters and late representation.
-
Hi guys. I attached the letters from the tfl.
And please see confirmation of late representation and what I wrote in late representation below.
08/04/2024
Hallo,
I’m xxxxx, the registered keeper of the vehicle. I’d like to clarify I was not driving and driving at the time of contravention. It was my partner taut is also a second insured driver that stopped on red route. I’m seen getting into a passenger seat on the photo.
I’m happy to pay original discounted PCN fee as only just found out about the PCN penalty. We have had issues with mail delivery via Royal Mail on the estate we live at. This is a second occasion within 4 months that important letter was not delivered to us. Therefore we have not received your 1st letter, dated 12/02. We have now filed official complained to Royal Mail regarding issue of mail delivery. The reference number is xxxxxx
We were also abroad until after Easter and opened our correspondence only the weekend gone. This is when we found out about the PCN notice.
Could I please ask you to communicate with me via email: xxxxxxxx or recorded signed delivery due to mail delivery issue?
Kind regards,
Xxxx
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi guys. I attached the letters from the tfl.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@Teacholic this can likely be easily dealt with but before we can give you any advice we need to know for sure what has happened based on seeing the documents, rather than relying on your summary of what you think has happened. If nothing else because I suspect TFL might have committed a procedural impropriety, which could get the PCN cancelled altogether.
Please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) and post up all the paperwork you have received from TFL (we don't need to see the private parking charge you've referred to), and everything you've sent to TFL.
-
Sorry, but what do you mean by "private PCN" ? YOu have also posted no documents at all, so it is all a bit confusing.
It’s just another PCN notice we got, not from TFL but parking company, that I used the term ‘private PCN’ to tell apart from PCN issued by TFL. I don’t have access to the letters currently. Sorry it makes it harder to understand the case. The letters themselves do not have much info, especially the one informing they increased the charge as we didn’t respond to previous PCN notice by TFl (never received).
-
Sorry, but what do you mean by "private PCN" ? YOu have also posted no documents at all, so it is all a bit confusing.
-
Hi guys. I'm a newbie, found out about your forum from Money Saving Expert. On my estate in London, where I live, is a known issue with letters not being delivered by Royal Mail. We have resident's association that created a monthly newsletters and it was mentioned in April 2024 newsletter too, so I'm not the only one having issue and apparently many people do.The association has complained to RM, talked to local delivery office manager and even raised it with the local MP, so they are on it to try to sort it out.
As a result I had one PCN (let's call it 'private PCN') charge showing up 3 months late - I paid the increase as it was only £35 and I thought it was a one off. But after Easter we found Transport for London (TFL) letter informing us of increasing the PCN charge from £160 to £240. So it turned out to be still an ongoing issue.
As we were away for holiday combined with the Easter break, we only found that letter after we returned. We submitted late representation explaining the issue, sent the only evidence we had at the time. It was a photo of the 'private PCN' with a hand written note on the envelope by a neighbour telling the postman to read the address properly as they are frequently getting our letters delivered to their address (same door number but different street name, next to me though). The note said they get to go back to the post box and send it back, and that it happens too often. It explains perhaps why it took so long for private PCN to arrive. The private PCN letter was dated end of November 2023, and we received it end of February 2024. They seem fed up by that. We also filed a complaint with royal mail directly and included complaint reference number in our late representation to the TFL. However, we only got a reply from the RM a week later, so the reply was not included in the late representation. Since then, our residence's association also posted in April Newsletter (I still have a copy of that) about issue of the letters not being delivered. Apparently a whole bag of letters was found by the resident, and there has been many complaints about the letters not being delivered.
I emailed the resident's association today asking if they can help me get any other evidence of the correspondence delivery issue. It is because the TFL's late representation reply was delivered today - they asked me to pay unless I can provide “an additional evidence that outlines why your correspondence was late”. The letter itself arrived late. It is dated 24/04/24 and was delivered only today, 02/05/24, so 8 days since it was dated, which is not great as is leaving us only 5 days (14 days from the date of the letter) to provide the evidence requested. The TFL letter states that if full amount is not paid within 14 days from the date of the letter, the TFL will apply for the County Court to recover the charges, which will also incur a further charge of £9, followed by Order of Recovery of the charge. I don’t think it is fair to be paying extra charges due to Royal Mail issue, while at the same time I don’t particularly want to be issued Order of Recovery for not paying additional £80.
I must say I'm not sure how serious this all is, and what actually Order of recovery is and whether I should worry about it? We are thinking of buying property in the next 2-3 years so having anything that lowers my credit score is not great. When we were renting our existing flat my partner had CCJ issued 5 years prior and it showed up, slowed down the whole renting process and only because the landlords were nice and reasonable, we got to rent the property anyway.
I'm planning to send a reply from the Royal Mail that mentions staff levels issues of my local RM delivery office and copy of the newsletter from resident's association, and might ask that neighbour that got our 'private PCN' for a written statement too (and keep for the future), and if the resident association can send me any more evidence I'll include that too. But is there anything else I can do? I'm happy to pay £160 if that's what I'd be able to pay as a minimum if I had actually received Tfl's 1st letter about the PCN charge. But it feels unfair and unreasonable to pay more due to Royal Mail issues.
Shall I just pay the TFL extra £80 if they still do not accept the additional evidence and try my luck recovering the extra fees from the Royal Mail itself? Can you take the Royal Mail to small claims court? They already costed me £35. I want them to take the ownership for this but it might be rainbows and unicorns wishful thinking. although what about the principles - or would I be wasting time to fight a lost cause?
I'd appreciate your thoughts and advice.
Teacholic