Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: nonPCNenjoyer on May 01, 2024, 03:02:10 am
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OP, this is still good for you. If this ever goes as far as a hearing in front of a judge, it will be your word against that of a third party who was not even at the location. The burden of proof is on GeoupNexus to prove, not yours to disprove.
Whilst, your “evidence” may not seem to be overwhelming, if/when it comes to a claim, you will have good defence based on many points. You can also, guarantee that any claim filed will also contain errors and breaches on their part that you can use against them.
I am currently assisting someone with a similar claim which has so many breaches of the Civil Court Procedures that it is a total abuse of process and we can’t wait for it to get in front of a judge. We are confident that they are unlikely to let it go to a hearing because they would get spanked in court.
Of course no one knows exactly what is going to happen. There is always the chance that it doesn’t win. However, if it is well argued, you are unlikely to pay as much as is in the original claim. With that knowledge and situation you are in at this moment, you have little choice anyway. You can either pay the already inflated charge, which is what they are hoping you will do or wait and see if they are going to take it to a court claim. Even then, it does not mean that they will go all the way. They rely on their victims being gullible and ignorant of their rights and the process. You are here, so neither of those two things.
For now, keep your notes on what happened on the day. Keep all the other paperwork you received. Ride out the threatening debt collector letters that are going to come. Those you can file or discard, they are not what they seem. They are powerless to do anything that they threaten.
What you are waiting for, is a Letter of Claim. That will come from a firm of bottom-dwelling solicitors, such as DCB Legal (not DCBLtd), BW Legal or Gladstones and will give you 30 days to pay up. Any other letter that gives you anything less than 30 days is not a Letter of Claim and we don’t need to know about it.
Show us the LoC if/when it eventually arrives and we’ll take you through the next steps.
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Nobody here has (or should) persuade you to do anything. The role of this forum is to advise you of your options. The course of action you take is yours to decide on. By the time you posted here, you had already exhausted the appeals process, so the only options open were to pay promptly, or see if they sue. You seemed to prefer the second option.
Your testimony as a witness counts as evidence (although would be stronger if you can supplement it with additional evidence), and will demonstrate your argument. Jopson vs Homeguard isn't necessarily a slam dunk in this case as has been said already, but could be referred to as a defence point.
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OP, if this gets to court you would need evidence.
So you had 'about 4 parcels'.
OP, a judge would want to know how many because this is your defence i.e. that your time on site was properly and only spent delivering parcels in the course of your business or employment.
So not 'about' but 3,4,7 parcels - see attached worksheets.
These were delivered to X separate properties which necessitated Y trips.
The service standard is that the courier is required to carry the parcel to the property and not a central collection point. The location was a block of residences spread over N floors and Z rings must be given before looking for alternatives, sometimes specified by the recipient but often not, such as trying to find a neighbour.
OP, I could go on. But this is your defence and frankly if you cannot put these details together with evidence now then your chances won't improve over time.
I'm a courier and I refer you to Jopson v Homeguard won't win the day IMO.
How the hell do i prove this when it was 6 months ago+... The guys here all persuaded me to let it go to court but didn't mention this at all. now I'm ****...?
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OP, if this gets to court you would need evidence.
So you had 'about 4 parcels'.
OP, a judge would want to know how many because this is your defence i.e. that your time on site was properly and only spent delivering parcels in the course of your business or employment.
So not 'about' but 3,4,7 parcels - see attached worksheets.
These were delivered to X separate properties which necessitated Y trips.
The service standard is that the courier is required to carry the parcel to the property and not a central collection point. The location was a block of residences spread over N floors and Z rings must be given before looking for alternatives, sometimes specified by the recipient but often not, such as trying to find a neighbour.
OP, I could go on. But this is your defence and frankly if you cannot put these details together with evidence now then your chances won't improve over time.
I'm a courier and I refer you to Jopson v Homeguard won't win the day IMO.
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OP, you have still not addressed the key issue which IMO is your only defence both now and ultimately in court: So i worked for amazon flex delivering parcels on this day,
While these matters are fresh in your mind...:
How many parcels of what size to how many residences on a site with, to be confirmed, a single car park and these residences were how many metres away from the car park and how does delivery take place e.g. to obtain a signature or leave at the front door or designated location etc. and was/were the resident(s) in/had they been pre-notified of delivery and how many return journeys did you make while stopped in the car park?
Others may have other questions.
IMO, unless you make a deliberate and accurate record now then in possibly several years' time a judge would be sceptical about your recollections because as far as we can see none of the necessary specifics has been put in evidence so far.
I had about 4 parcels in one concierge, and a couple that went to other separate flats.
Walking to the delivery point once I had finally found it from my car would take less than one minute.
I left it at concierge, the others the customer wasn't in so I rang neighbours flat number and left it at the lobby.
I returned to my car to pick up more deliveries more than once. Maybe like 3-4 times.
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OP, you have still not addressed the key issue which IMO is your only defence both now and ultimately in court: So i worked for amazon flex delivering parcels on this day,
While these matters are fresh in your mind...:
How many parcels of what size to how many residences on a site with, to be confirmed, a single car park and these residences were how many metres away from the car park and how does delivery take place e.g. to obtain a signature or leave at the front door or designated location etc. and was/were the resident(s) in/had they been pre-notified of delivery and how many return journeys did you make while stopped in the car park?
Others may have other questions.
IMO, unless you make a deliberate and accurate record now then in possibly several years' time a judge would be sceptical about your recollections because as far as we can see none of the necessary specifics has been put in evidence so far.
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How long is a piece of string? You have exhausted the appeals process. It is now up to GroupNexus to take the next step. They have up to 6 years from the date of the alleged event to decide whether they want to take you to court.
As already discussed, the most probable sequence of events is that you’ll receive a bunch of debt collection/final reminder letters which you can safely ignore. The alleged debt will increase to around £160-£170 as they add on fake “debt recovery” costs.
The next stage, which may or may not ever happen, would be a Letter of Claim and then a claim itself. Even then, if it is defended robustly, with advice here or from MSE, there is a high probability that they will discontinue once they realise that you are willing to fight this all the way.
Until a court claim is filed, which may or may not ever happen, all you can do is wait and see what they do. You could try and find out who manages the properties at the location as it is likely they are the ones who contracted GroupNexus and ask them to get the PCN cancelled. Explain to them how this could affect their clients if delivery drivers blacklist the location.
If there’s a FaceBook group or similar group of you who are delivery drivers, perhaps arrange to have canvass of the properties at the location explaining how they are about find that they can no longer receive their home deliveries because of the unfair actions of their parking management company who were contracted by their management company. Ask the residents to raise the issue with the management company and unless any outstanding PCNs from delivery drivers are cancelled, they face the prospect of being blacklisted by delivery companies.
Do you get the idea? Otherwise, it is just a waiting game to see if GN decide to pursue you further, or at all.
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You have exhausted the appeals process. there is nothing more you can do, for now, unless you want to pay the charge. My advice is not to pay the charge and to wait and see if they decide to take you to court over the alleged debt.
What is going to happen and you need to be fully aware of this, is the storm of debt collector letters you are now likely to receive. You can safely ignore all debt collector letters. They may appear to be threatening and full of scary words like "bailiff" and "CCJ" but those are there solely to try and scare the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into capitulating and paying up, the now inflated charge.
The debt collectors cannot do anything. They cannot take you to court. They are a third party to the contract you allegedly breached with the PPC. They offer their service to the PPC on a no-win, no-fee basis. Ignore them.
If they intend to take this further, they will either themselves or through a roboclaim firm of solicitors, send you a Letter of Claim giving you 30 days to pay or face the prospect of a county court claim. After those 30 days, they are at liberty to issue a county court claim at any time up to 6 years after the date of the alleged contravention.
A court claim is what you want to get this over and done with. A judge is a truly independent arbiter and they will decide whether you owe the PPC a debt. A judge will take all the facts into account and if you can show that delivering packages is not parking, as was described in the persuasive appeal in Jopson v Homeguard mentioned earlier, as well as other legal arguments which will be advised if/when a claim is issued, then you have a very good prospect of winning.
Even if you were to lose, it is likely that you would pay less than the original claim amount as this is the small claims track and they are not allowed to add fake fees/damages and the costs are fixed. There is no chance of a CCJ even if you lose as long as it is paid within 30 days of judgment. That is a worst case scenario.
So, you now have to wait and see. Ignore any debt collector letters. Come back if/when you receive an LoC.
Still not received any contact from groupnexus about next steps. How long does it usually take?
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You have exhausted the appeals process. there is nothing more you can do, for now, unless you want to pay the charge. My advice is not to pay the charge and to wait and see if they decide to take you to court over the alleged debt.
What is going to happen and you need to be fully aware of this, is the storm of debt collector letters you are now likely to receive. You can safely ignore all debt collector letters. They may appear to be threatening and full of scary words like "bailiff" and "CCJ" but those are there solely to try and scare the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into capitulating and paying up, the now inflated charge.
The debt collectors cannot do anything. They cannot take you to court. They are a third party to the contract you allegedly breached with the PPC. They offer their service to the PPC on a no-win, no-fee basis. Ignore them.
If they intend to take this further, they will either themselves or through a roboclaim firm of solicitors, send you a Letter of Claim giving you 30 days to pay or face the prospect of a county court claim. After those 30 days, they are at liberty to issue a county court claim at any time up to 6 years after the date of the alleged contravention.
A court claim is what you want to get this over and done with. A judge is a truly independent arbiter and they will decide whether you owe the PPC a debt. A judge will take all the facts into account and if you can show that delivering packages is not parking, as was described in the persuasive appeal in Jopson v Homeguard mentioned earlier, as well as other legal arguments which will be advised if/when a claim is issued, then you have a very good prospect of winning.
Even if you were to lose, it is likely that you would pay less than the original claim amount as this is the small claims track and they are not allowed to add fake fees/damages and the costs are fixed. There is no chance of a CCJ even if you lose as long as it is paid within 30 days of judgment. That is a worst case scenario.
So, you now have to wait and see. Ignore any debt collector letters. Come back if/when you receive an LoC.
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You could write one more letter putting your case in a better (legal basis) way, it would be ignored as an 'appeal' but may have some effect on there decision on court action if you now appear better informed and not such a soft target.
If the appeal(s) to date haven't been the strongest, then there could be some merit in doing this.
2 posts above from yours, a random guy comments for some reason. can you delete posts on my thread to do with him pls
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If the appeal(s) to date haven't been the strongest, then there could be some merit in doing this.
Going from the 'response to evidence' posted above, I think the original and POPLA appeals will be pretty poor.
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You could write one more letter putting your case in a better (legal basis) way, it would be ignored as an 'appeal' but may have some effect on there decision on court action if you now appear better informed and not such a soft target.
If the appeal(s) to date haven't been the strongest, then there could be some merit in doing this.
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Any advice on where I go from here with regards to the appeal that's been rejected? The new letter still looks like I could appeal on the letter dated 21st
Nowhere, you can now do nothing except wait and see if they want to take you to court or not, you cannot now make anything happen (other than by paying).
You could write one more letter putting your case in a better (legal basis) way, it would be ignored as an 'appeal' but may have some effect on there decision on court action if you now appear better informed and not such a soft target.
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Any advice on where I go from here with regards to the appeal that's been rejected? The new letter still looks like I could appeal on the letter dated 21st
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That’s not an appeal that the scammers would take any interest in. In fact they are probably having convulsions of schadenfreude and rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of you being their next victim that ends up paying them.
They have no better nature that you can appeal to. In addition to the fact that it appears you have outed yourself as the driver, you have weakened your chances with POPLA. This is more likely to end up being won in court than anywhere else.
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I think you'll find that you have an excellent defence should they try to take this all the way to court. Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ezhkj6epu66l1r/JOPSON-V-HOMEGUARD-2906J-Approved.pdf?st=ljfw2rjf&dl=0) is the defence you use. Loading/unloading or delivering is not parking.
Whilst the NtK is not strictly PoFA compliant as it fails on 9(2)(e)(i), it is probably too late to rely on that if you have identified yourself as the keeper to also be the driver. It may have helped you win at POPLA.
For now, you just have to wait and see if/when a Letter of Claim is sent. You can safely ignore all debt collector letters. They are powerless to do anything except try and scare you into paying by using scary words like "bailiff" and "CCJ". They hope you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that'll capitulate and pay up when the pressure builds up.
You may want to inform any customers who have unregulated private parking companies infesting their properties that they will be blacklisted from receiving deliveries if they don't rein in their ex-clamper thugs.
Can you go through POPLA response to me? POPLA response is in an attached pdf file i uploaded in a reply today. In my appeal I wrote this
"Motorist response to operator evidence
• Can I just get an explanation as to how delivery drivers are supposed to
actually do our jobs? It seems extremely predatory and wrong, to give
delivery drivers parking fines when we're obviously there temporarily. Had
there of been signs of where buildings names are, I would have been in and
out within 10 minutes, and I would have been within the 10 minute grace
period. I do not think it's right or fair to fine delivery drivers at all. Please can
I just get some leniency and receive a goodwill gesture? I will never work and
deliver at this location again, and I will also make it a goal to make sure no
one I work with goes there again. And the land owners can take it up with
their renters as to why they're not receiving their packages at all. Do you see
the problem here? People like me get punished for just doing our jobs, now if
this appeal is rejected, I will be going to all the drivers in our group chat, and
telling them to avoid this location at all cost and just return the packages
back to depot. How is it fair that delivery drivers are punished for doing our
jobs? And that now if this is rejected, the people living there won't get their
packages on time since I will tell everyone to avoid this location. If the land
had signs that state where things are, people like me who are new to the
area, just doing our job will be in and out within 10 minutes and within the 10
minute grace period. Like I said, it's extremely predatory of them to give
PCN's to delivery drivers who are just trying to do their job. If you still think
that I should be punished for doing my job, then please just let me pay the
reduced amount. They're a private parking company, who are abusing the
system to hand out fines to everyone they can, without showing some
goodwill to people with extenuating circumstances, such as delivery drivers.
Is it really fair to you?"
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Thank you, I don't get how I'd send you guys the correspondence I got from them? I don't see it anymore or just can't find it again
Why?
Surely you've kept correspondence up to and including POPLA, and their decision couldn't have been that long ago.
I managed to get the full convos, here it is.
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Thank you, I don't get how I'd send you guys the correspondence I got from them? I don't see it anymore or just can't find it again
Why?
Surely you've kept correspondence up to and including POPLA, and their decision couldn't have been that long ago.
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There is not need to worry about "going in front of a judge". It is not 'Rumpole of the Bailey'. It is not a criminal court. It is a civil court and should it even get as far as a hearing, it tends to take p0lace in the judges chambers (simply an office) and there are no robes or wigs.
This short video explains the process in court. Nothing to be afraid of:
https://youtu.be/n93eoaxhzpU?feature=shared
You are nowhere near getting to this stage, if at all.
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I think you'll find that you have an excellent defence should they try to take this all the way to court. Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ezhkj6epu66l1r/JOPSON-V-HOMEGUARD-2906J-Approved.pdf?st=ljfw2rjf&dl=0) is the defence you use. Loading/unloading or delivering is not parking.
Whilst the NtK is not strictly PoFA compliant as it fails on 9(2)(e)(i), it is probably too late to rely on that if you have identified yourself as the keeper to also be the driver. It may have helped you win at POPLA.
For now, you just have to wait and see if/when a Letter of Claim is sent. You can safely ignore all debt collector letters. They are powerless to do anything except try and scare you into paying by using scary words like "bailiff" and "CCJ". They hope you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that'll capitulate and pay up when the pressure builds up.
You may want to inform any customers who have unregulated private parking companies infesting their properties that they will be blacklisted from receiving deliveries if they don't rein in their ex-clamper thugs.
Hi,
So since I can't appeal at POPLA, how else do I appeal this PCN now mentioning that course case? I'm worried about going in front of a judge..
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As per slapdash, we need to see your correspondence with Group Nexus, theirs with you, your POPLA appeal and their decision notice.
'Whether a car is parked, or simply stopped, or left for a moment while
unloading, or (to take an example discussed in argument) accompanying a
frail person inside, must be a question of fact or degree. I think in the end this was agreed. A milkman leaving his float to carry bottles to the flat would not be “parked” Nor would a postman delivering letters, a wine merchant
delivering a case of wine, and nor, I am satisfied, a retailer’s van,
or indeed the appellant, unloading an awkward piece of furniture. Any other approach would leave life in the block of flats close to unworkable',..
So, could you convince another judge in another court that your activity fell within the scope of the judgment above?
'Fact and degree' and we know very few other than that the car was recorded as being stationary for 22 minutes.
OP, aside from copies of your correspondence (as above) you'll need to take us through those 22 minutes, as indeed IMO you would a judge were this to get to court.
Hi,
Thank you, I don't get how I'd send you guys the correspondence I got from them? I don't see it anymore or just can't find it again
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You may want to inform any customers who have unregulated private parking companies infesting their properties that they will be blacklisted from receiving deliveries if they don't rein in their ex-clamper thugs.
The terms of, for example, Amazon preclude that. The drivers can decide not to deliver what they have been assigned, though I imagine that is not particularly conducive towards maintaining an ongoing relationship.
In my area a number of developments have become problematic areas for uber eats. Their model is such that you sign in and decide which individual collections and deliveries you will undertake. Many drivers simply won't take those jobs.
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As per slapdash, we need to see your correspondence with Group Nexus, theirs with you, your POPLA appeal and their decision notice.
'Whether a car is parked, or simply stopped, or left for a moment while
unloading, or (to take an example discussed in argument) accompanying a
frail person inside, must be a question of fact or degree. I think in the end this was agreed. A milkman leaving his float to carry bottles to the flat would not be “parked” Nor would a postman delivering letters, a wine merchant
delivering a case of wine, and nor, I am satisfied, a retailer’s van,
or indeed the appellant, unloading an awkward piece of furniture. Any other approach would leave life in the block of flats close to unworkable',..
So, could you convince another judge in another court that your activity fell within the scope of the judgment above?
'Fact and degree' and we know very few other than that the car was recorded as being stationary for 22 minutes.
OP, aside from copies of your correspondence (as above) you'll need to take us through those 22 minutes, as indeed IMO you would a judge were this to get to court.
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I think you'll find that you have an excellent defence should they try to take this all the way to court. Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ezhkj6epu66l1r/JOPSON-V-HOMEGUARD-2906J-Approved.pdf?st=ljfw2rjf&dl=0) is the defence you use. Loading/unloading or delivering is not parking.
Whilst the NtK is not strictly PoFA compliant as it fails on 9(2)(e)(i), it is probably too late to rely on that if you have identified yourself as the keeper to also be the driver. It may have helped you win at POPLA.
For now, you just have to wait and see if/when a Letter of Claim is sent. You can safely ignore all debt collector letters. They are powerless to do anything except try and scare you into paying by using scary words like "bailiff" and "CCJ". They hope you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that'll capitulate and pay up when the pressure builds up.
You may want to inform any customers who have unregulated private parking companies infesting their properties that they will be blacklisted from receiving deliveries if they don't rein in their ex-clamper thugs.
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https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/
Update things in accordance with the above.
Since you seem to have already challenged it and been rejected by popla it would be very useful to know the content of your challenge and your Pipla appeal.
The site sgnage and exact location may also be useful.
You can defend the claim in court (losing is likely to be around £240). The material you post will determine viability of a potential defence. (You can make it go away for whatever they are currently demanding. Defending it may take more effort and time than you think is worthwhile expending).
There isn't any form of generic defence. Nor is there any form of automatic dispensation for delivery vehicles.
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Hi,
So i worked for amazon flex delivering parcels on this day, I unfortunately received a PCN, since I parked here without legal reason. Is there any way I can fight this in court? There's absolutely no way delivery drivers can do their job for the residences living in flats at this location at all. Surely there's something I can do like fight it in court? I've already been rejected by POPLA.
(https://i.imgur.com/gVzpp29.jpeg)
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