Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: brightman on April 29, 2024, 11:18:55 pm
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Well done, although I don't think they cancelled out of the goodness of their hearts !
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That's a great result, thanks for letting us know the outcome.
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@cp8759 thank you so much for looking this for me. I got a letter today from Test Valley council. They reconsidered my mitigation situation and given it was my first time to have the offence, they withdrew the ticket as a gesture of goodwill. My husband won't get the NTO. We can close the case. Thanks again for everyone on this forum.
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@brightman are you still with us?
I've now got a copy of The Borough Council of Test Valley Off Street Parking Places Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R3DBD2kI70UJ8-Pf7GL1eUB1dO0Gi0I3/view).
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@cp8759 Thanks! So they charge 5p/min for people to pay for the PCN. :(
Yes, which means that this is an exact replica of the Paul Bateman (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view) case.
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@cp8759 Thanks! So they charge 5p/min for people to pay for the PCN. :(
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Reply from the council:
(https://i.imgur.com/5whPpEt.png)
With 20% VAT that comes to 5p per minute.
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@Incandescent @cp8759 Thank you! I will post it when my husband got it.
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I've requested the latest parking places order from the council, so we should have it by the time you need to make representations. Helpfully the 0845 number is still there.
For the appealing ground, my first ground is the contravention does no occur? I read the cases about the premium rate telephone cost and I didn't quite catch it. Is this a second ground I shall use? Thanks!
Don't worry about that, post the notice to owner on here when you get it and we will draft a representation for you.
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I have found this Order in the TRO library on the Traffic Penalty Tribunal website. Para 36.2 refers to EVs
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Test%20Valley/TS62.pdf
Of course there is no guarantee this is the latest Order, and the TPT page states that councils are not obliged to supply their TROs to the TPT.
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@cp8759 Sorry I can't find the principal parking places order on Test Valley Council website. Do you know where I can obtain it? I tried to reattach the photos.
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21204&authkey=%21AICj22FJhcXroic&height=1024)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21203&authkey=%21AEouldtVSk2aFU0&height=1024)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21202&authkey=%21AGg1d-Exm12-vFg&height=1024)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21205&authkey=%21AN3WTXJOtFkmP98&height=1024)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21206&authkey=%21APs07j1Yy88Mfxs&height=1024)
For the appealing ground, my first ground is the contravention does no occur? I read the cases about the premium rate telephone cost and I didn't quite catch it. Is this a second ground I shall use? Thanks!
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@brightman I've fixed the Paul Bateman link above, I cannot read any of your photos as the versions you've attached are small thumbnails.
The number on the back of the PCN should be 0845 600 1586.
The order you've found is only an amending order, we need the principal one.
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@cp8759 Thanks! I can't see a premium-rate number at back of the PCN and I tried the link of of this case "Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022)." that I can't open it. Reattaching the PCN ticket and signs.
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21204&authkey=%21AICj22FJhcXroic&height=256)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21203&authkey=%21AEouldtVSk2aFU0&height=256)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21202&authkey=%21AGg1d-Exm12-vFg&height=256)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21205&authkey=%21AN3WTXJOtFkmP98&height=256)
(https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=B9F08F6DEEBAEF71%21206&authkey=%21APs07j1Yy88Mfxs&height=256)
I find the parking places order on Test Valley borough council website here Parking Places Order (https://www.testvalley.gov.uk/assets/attach/16117/Proposed-OSPP-Order-2022.pdf)
Thanks!
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@brightman this case is an almost perfect replica of Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WW83Desv43qE8aviq2wez1KRsivNCqME/view).
On top of that there's a premium-rate number on the back of the PCN, which can assist as illustrated by Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view).
I would definitely wait for the notice to owner, in the meantime please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on how to post images properly, then re-post the PCN without any redactions.
I will also get hold of the parking places order.
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I see thank you for looking into it for me!
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If a motorist can pay and display OR simply pay without displaying anything, in this case by RingGo, then there cannot be a requirement to display and the grounds are incorrect.
The only grounds must be 'parked without payment of the parking charge'.
Representation grounds: contravention did not occur.
Others will comment.
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Apologies that I did not quite catch your last message. Do you mean there is a conflict between the EV bay sign and their Ts and Cs which I can challenge? Or you mean the signs are clear that I have no ground to challenge? Thanks.
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On the face of it there is a clear conflict between the contravention and the Ts and Cs (and I include the sign in the EV parking bays in these).
I cannot see any reference to RingGo or paying by phone on the board, on the contrary it states clearly - Display Ticket Clearly in Windscreen.
Non-payment of the parking charge must surely be the contravention?
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I was driving my husband's car. He is the registered owner. I couldn't upload all photos in the first post as the sizes. So I just upload some photos for the signs here. I did not intentionally ignore the car parking charges if I knew it.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I can't sugar coat this pill - from what you've said you didn't pay because, as you say clearly and repeatedly, you didn't think you had to because the parking tariff was included within the cost to you of charging your car..which as it happens was far greater than the tariff itself.
IMO, you need to get back on to standard track i.e. photos of the signs in the car park which show the parking terms and conditions* and to confirm whether you are the registered keeper of the car(if you are not then in the first instance that person would get the NTO).
*- the sign you posted is simply a general reminder notice but not the one setting out the Ts and Cs(the one which says that non-compliance could result in a penalty charge)
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I don't have any defence other than mitigation. All I can say is that I wouldn't knowingly ignore the car parking charge if I knew there was car parking charge on top of the EV charger. I was in a hurry to look around and check it. I also thought the EV charger is inclusive of the car parking.
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I parked the car charging at 9:59 and went for a class supposed to start at 10am. I was told to wait as the librarian in the library was also unaware of the cancellation until they emailed the provider and got a reply saying they have to cancel the session as the person running it had car breakdown. I have a letter from the class provider to confirm that I was notified at last minute. I stayed in the library to feed my baby. I have witness on that. Regards to "During this period we don't know what you were doing, but do know that you could not have been feeding your child for this period. IMO, as regards the contravention you do not have a defence and the Equality Act has no bearing on this case at 11.29am." can you elaborate it pls? Was it 90 mins too long for feeding to be considered as a defence? When you are with a newborn time just flies. It is time consuming. Something to mention that I didn't have a pram with me that morning and was carrying my baby in my hands walking in.
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OP, your informal reps don't refer to feeding your baby, instead they give the following timeline:
You started charging at 9.59;
Your class started at 10am;
The class was scheduled to last from 10am to 11.30am;
But the class was cancelled;(from your first post, not the reps)
The PCN was issued at 11.29, 90 minutes after you parked;
During this period we don't know what you were doing, but do know that you could not have been feeding your child for this period.
IMO, as regards the contravention you do not have a defence and the Equality Act has no bearing on this case at 11.29am.
I think we would need to look elsewhere for a defence.
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And I don't either, unfortunately, so wait a bit so others can contribute, but don't miss the deadline on the PCN for paying or submitting reps.
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Thank you for looking at it for me. I was looking after newborn less than 26 weeks old. Just wondering if it is worth going to the formal challenge or I shall pay for it? I have no idea to judge how strong or weak this will be.
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I had a look through the attachments but can't find any errors in the PCN or their response. Essentially, your reps amount to mitigation, and they've decided not to apply that.
As regards the Equality Act 2010, I can't comment, as I don't know enough about it, so wait a bit until others more expert than I respond. It's a bit late as I type, so I may have a look at the Act tomorrow to see what it says.
I think this section of the Act is the one to look at: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/17
However note that there is a limit of 26 weeks from birth date.
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It is my first time to receive PCN and I’d like to see people’s views on whether to challenge it or not. I drove to a library in nearby council first time to attend a baby class. I parked in an EV bay charging and I didn’t see the sign above says parking charge also applies while charging. I couldn’t as my baby had panic crying when being left in the car while I am plugging to charge. I have to take him out quickly to comfort him. I was very stressful and walked away in a hurry to attend his class but only to find out his class was cancelled without me being notified. I have to stay in the library to feed my baby and couldn’t walk back to check the parking regulations. When I am back after 1.5 hour a PCN ticket was put on my car. I am very unhappy as I wouldn’t knowingly ignore the parking charges if I know it is also applied on top of the EV charger. I made an informal challenge and was rejected for the reason that the sign is clearly displayed and even I left in a hurry and stress I can pay via RingGo app or plan in advance. I found it is inconsiderable as I don’t have hands to feed baby while playing on mobile to pay. I am also new to the area that I have no idea of the parking app that I can buy ticket in advance. The parking sign also says during busy period find a parking space before buy a ticket. I don't think it is fair to say I can pay in advance. I was charging from 09:59 to 11:44 and the ticket is observed from 11:11 to 11:29.
Is it possible to challenge under Equality Act 2010 that the ticket is issued lack of consideration. I am thinking to challenge due to the late cancellation of my class that I was unable to leave my baby to walk back to check the car parking charges on EV bay.
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