Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Parky24 on April 26, 2024, 02:33:50 pm
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Well done for proving me wrong ! Their last sentence, if used in a reps refusal letter would be good for an appeal based on procedural impropriety by fettering their discretion.
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Over three months after the supposed offence, I finally got a letter today accepting my appeal. I found the last sentence rather amusing - they clearly have no intention of making their signage clearer.
"Please note That I will be unable to cancel any further Penalty Charge Notices issued to your vehicle in similar circumstances"
Thanks to everyone who gave me advice.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53845897333/sizes/z/
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@Parky24 the relevant ground is that the alleged contravention did not occur, but don't use the paper form, you want to make representations online via the council website.
In the first instance I'd recommend you post a draft representation on here and we'll check it over for you.
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Image of specified grounds:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53783234350/in/dateposted-public/
Which of these would anyone suggest I use?
Image of board indicating payment valid for this car park only
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53783033638/in/dateposted-public/
I think they should be very clear that the car park across the road is considered the same one
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thanks, I had forgotten those instructions
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I don't seem to be allowed to attach any more images
Space for attaching images here is very limited - have a read of this for guidance
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Thanks everyone. I have now received my NTO which includes a list of specified grounds for appeal. I am unsure which to you. I don't seem to be allowed to attach any more images
In the meantime -- one of their reasons for rejecting my initial appeal was that this car park has more than one machine.
The so called car park has a public road running through it. There is a section of car park on either side of the road, each with its own entrance. The area where I parked has ONE machine. I didn't realise both sides of the road counted as one car park. I recently revisted (on foot) and took a photo which clearly says tickets are valid for this car park only. I believe this is misleading unless they also state that both sides of Bluebell Lane count as one carpark.
Any advice would be welcome
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@Parky24 unfortunately the council has up to six months from the date of the alleged contravention to serve a notice to owner. I wouldn't chase them up because if they miss the deadline then they lose.
Just to add that if there is a 'PCN status enquiry" option on their website, that you look to see if an NtO has been sent, but apart from that you just have to wait.
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@Parky24 unfortunately the council has up to six months from the date of the alleged contravention to serve a notice to owner. I wouldn't chase them up because if they miss the deadline then they lose.
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The usual Fob-Off letter that, (I presume) totally ignores your representations.
Does this council have an on-line PCN status enquiry facility ? It might be prudent to enquire from time to time on the status of the PCN, so you know when an NtO has been posted to you.
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Yes my car and all details are up to date and correct with DVLA - no changes for several years.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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YOur last post was over a month ago, so please bring us up to speed by posting their letter of rejection of your informal challenge.
The council have up to 6 months to serve a Notice to Owner, so it's early days yet. Some councils can be very dozy. The NtO is sent to the address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle. So is it your car, and is the address up-to-date, and the same as it was at the time the PN was served ?
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Can anyone advise me please? I posted about my parking issue over a month ago. I appealed to the council. My appeal was rejected. I understood I would receive a "notice to owner" in 28 days and I could then make a formal appeal.
I have not received a "notice to owner". Should I chase them up or just leave it?
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@Parky24 personally I would take this all the way. All the council needed to do is put a sheet of A4 up saying "use the car machine in the part of the car park on the other side of Bluebell Lane - do not leave the car park without buying a ticket" and the matter would have been put beyond doubt.
We've seen plenty of cases where people have wandered to a nearby machine only to find out that it wasn't the right machine for the car park they were parked it, and local authorities can't play a game of "heads I win, tails you lose".
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Based on what I have read so far, and having looked at GSV views, I now think there is a reasonable chance of success at adjudication. The letter stuck to the car park conditions board plus the covered machine surely indicated to an average person that no payment was required. The council are being disingenuous in suggesting the car park on the other side of the street had a machine, as this would seem to be a separate car park to any reasonable person. We now know this has come under notice locally in Facebook, so more evidence has built up.
Of course, the OP would be risking the full PCN penalty, so it is his decision whether to proceed or not.
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I rarely look at facebook but someone drew my attention to the Penrith facebook page which has a post about this car park. Seems machine is actually out of order and several people have been fined not realising the machines in the car park over the road counted for payment. These posts are later than mine so no reference to the public notice. Interesting
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+1
To me, it boils down to----how can the Council penalise the OP for non-payment when the Council itself withdrew the means to pay?
Mike
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Basically, I said that I had gone to the meter to pay but finding it covered and seeing the notice beside it I assumed that payments were suspended until Friday 19th April. I was unaware of any special parking arrangements.
Therefore you can either pay the discount now or wait for the NTO and make formal reps which even if unsuccessful would probably elicit a further offer of the discounted penalty.
As far as we know, the facts are simple:
You parked and consulted the Ts and Cs and tariff board.
The main board displayed the charging hours and tariff and stated that the car park was pay and display only.
A notice which carried the council letterhead was placed in a prominent position on this board.
Adjacent to the board was a ticket machine which was wholly covered and which prevented drivers from obtaining a ticket. The cover did not carry any message.
You left your vehicle without purchasing and displaying a ticket.
A PCN was issued which alleged the contravention of failing to display a pay and display ticket.
Superimposed on the above is:
You read the notice and interpreted its meaning in the context of the covered machine and concluded that their combined purpose was to modify the terms and conditions of parking, referred to by the council in the notice as 'special parking arrangements', in sich a way as to not require payment for parking.
You reasoned that the council had decided to permit free parking, perhaps to compensate for lost free on-street parking capacity ln the highways disrupted by the gas works.
The council's response to your initial reps was that the terms were clear as per the board. They have ignored their Public Notice and its wording.
Formal reps would require them to address this issue.
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Thanks to you all for taking the time to read and respond. I am the registered keeper. Unfortunately I cannot post my original response as it was done online and I didn't think to take a screenshot. Basically, I said that I had gone to the meter to pay but finding it covered and seeing the notice beside it I assumed that payments were suspended until Friday 19th April. I was unaware of any special parking arrangements. I made no mention of the other car park - it would never have occurred to me to pay there. I don't read the local papers and would have had no reason to look up the council web site to check parking arrangements/charges.
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It should be borne in mind that the conditions of parking are those conveyed in the car park itself and not any other medium.
MMV and I have posted the council/local newspaper references and these set the general context. But it's what's in the car park which counts.
With respect, I think the two or one car parks and there being another machine, which may or may not have also had a hood placed over it, we don't know*, are secondary if the OP is advancing the argument that the hood (which did NOT indicate out of order but tothe driver that it was not to be used...because payment was not required by virtue of the 'special car parking arrangements' referred to in the notice = no charge argument because this doesn't impose any requirement upon the OP to look elsewhere.
But if the OP simply claimed in their initial reps that the machine wasn't working and did not develop this within the context of the notice then IMO their challenge is made more difficult.
OP, pl post your initial reps and confirm the details about the registered keeper.
*- simple answer could be that the council actually covers the machine(s) to prevent drivers paying and whoever was supposed to do so failed to remove it/them after end of charging hours (6pm)the day before.
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They regard them as one car park:-
https://www.eden.gov.uk/media/1238/tro_bluebelllanepenrith.pdf
However IMO there are two car parks separated by a main road and the OP was only obliged to look for a working meter in that car park.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/93KQrhoE6kqzimAu9
The parking conditions, because of the gas works, are described here:-
https://www.westmorlandandfurness.gov.uk/news/2024/penrith-free-parking-during-gas-works-0
Clear as mud--free parking overall or only after 3pm?
The Council have been less than clear in the note posted on the ticket machine and have failed in their duty not to mislead or confuse drivers.
Reading that note and seeing the ticket machine hood, one is entitled to draw the conclusion that parking is free.
I would continue.
Mike
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.which rather fits with this which I drafted while you were posting:
I think an argument to the effect that you interpreted the combination of notice and covered machine as meaning that the council had suspended parking charges in the car park as a means of replacing lost and free on-street capacity due to the 'gas works' is worth advancing if indeed this is what you inferred from the context.
But it's difficult to do this if initial reps have put forward an alternative and contradictory position.
So, your initial reps pl and confirm who is the registered keeper and whether their DVLA details are current.
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Thanks for taking the time to answer. Had i read the notice beside a meter where i could pay, i would have paid. It was the combination of covered meter and notice that made me think payment was not required
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Well, first off, their letter is correct in stating there is more than one machine, because here it is: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mFXofFz64Qafv94Z8
You can see the car park name is the same as the one you took photos of. So what appears to be two separate car parks is actually a single named car park.
As for the sign, I am puzzled why you took the letter as meaning payment was not needed, because it doesn't say that.
However, their letter is quite disingenuous, because any normal visitor would assume there were two separate car parks. Just covering up a ticket machine without giving any notice of where another might be located is also dreadfully bad practice, bearing in mind the other machine is not visible from the one you went to.
The main point now, is whether you feel sufficiently aggrieved enough to stand your ground and take the matter all the way to adjudication at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal (TPT). This would mean foregoing the discount, waiting for the Notice to Owner, (sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the car), submitting a formal representation, getting rejected, then registering an appeal at the TPT. Appeals at the TPT are mostly by phone, but there is now a remote video facility offered.
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/
My own opinion is that going to adjudication would be something of a gamble, but others may differ so wait a bit and see what they say.
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https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24249313.parking-arrangements-penrith-end-gas-works-completed/
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I posted it already. First link is google maps, then 2 photos. 2nd photo is the "public notice "
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Post the photos of the notice on the machine
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On Wednesday the 17th of April. I parked in Bluebell Lane car park in Penrith. https://maps.app.goo.gl/423F6XMeEwgKKkAaA I went to the only meter to pay, it was covered up. There was a notice . Picture below
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680000536/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680363104/in/dateposted-public/
I thought the public notice was a little unclear and wasn't aware of any special parking arrangements but I just assumed charges did not apply until 19/4
I received a parking ticket . Picture below
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680462865/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680463080/in/dateposted-public/
I took a photograph of the machine and the notice and sent these together with my informal challenge.
I have now received a letter rejecting my challenge. Picture below
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680001066/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200628771@N08/53680000526/in/dateposted-public/
There is no other machine in this car park. However, on the other side of a public road, there is another car park which I have never used. There's a different entrance. So I always considered them two separate car parks. Have I got grounds for a further challenge?