Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Prinzo on April 24, 2024, 06:03:09 pm
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Please show us the response you get as their clarification and requested information when it arrives. As I have already predicted, Wise are going to instruct BW Legal to file a claim. Let them.
Once a claim has been filed, you will be in a position to defend and put them on notice that they will be required to provide strict proof that they sent an NtH. Later on in the process, they will have to provide evidence of what they allege they sent. You will be able to see any NtH. They will also have to show that they also sent the necessary copies of document with that NtH in order to be able to hold the Hirer liable.
It is all months away. If you do want to see what information they hold about you, then you can send them an SAR, but not before the claim is filed.
In our defence, you will only be answering the woefully inadequate PoC which may not even state the cause of action, another arrow in your quiver to use against them.
Will do, thanks for the help.
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Please show us the response you get as their clarification and requested information when it arrives. As I have already predicted, Wise are going to instruct BW Legal to file a claim. Let them.
Once a claim has been filed, you will be in a position to defend and put them on notice that they will be required to provide strict proof that they sent an NtH. Later on in the process, they will have to provide evidence of what they allege they sent. You will be able to see any NtH. They will also have to show that they also sent the necessary copies of document with that NtH in order to be able to hold the Hirer liable.
It is all months away. If you do want to see what information they hold about you, then you can send them an SAR, but not before the claim is filed.
In our defence, you will only be answering the woefully inadequate PoC which may not even state the cause of action, another arrow in your quiver to use against them.
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They are going to file a claim whatever happens. Don't request a SAR until after the claim is issued.
Thank you for the help.
By way of update, received letter from BW today confirming the file has been placed on hold whilst they query the matter with their client.
They will contact upon receipt of a response from their client.
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They are going to file a claim whatever happens. Don't request a SAR until after the claim is issued.
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Whereas a SAR would show the real PCN and everything else, not second-hand deductions.
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The hire company gave them the correct address but Wise Parking made a mistake in the spelling of the address hence probably why the PCN to the hirer was not received.
How would you know, if you didn't receive it??
Submit a SAR and let's end the speculation and deal with concrete facts pl.
The hire company sent notification to the hirer of the details passed on to Wise Parking to reissue the pcn with an attached invoice for their(hire company) admin.costs.
The notification indicated that Wise Parking will reissue the pcn to the hirer but the hirer never received any PCN or letter from Wise Parking till the letter from Trace which had a misspelling of the address and same with BW legal.
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The hire company gave them the correct address but Wise Parking made a mistake in the spelling of the address hence probably why the PCN to the hirer was not received.
How would you know, if you didn't receive it??
Submit a SAR and let's end the speculation and deal with concrete facts pl.
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You still ought to correct it. You're unlikely to be able to gain any advantage from the error, but as b789 has explained, there's the potential for you to suffer a disadvantage if it isn't corrected and post goes missing as a result.
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Because if they hold an incorrect or old address, they could file a claim and you would know nothing about it and they would eventually obtain a CCJ by default. Once that happens, it is much more complex to get it set aside and can be expensive.
You need to make sure they have your correct address for service. If they don't or have a slightly incorrect address, you could face a world of financial pain should they obtain a CCJ by default. It's just not worth it.
Thanks for the explanation.
So far letters from BW legal have come through even with the spelling mistake.
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Because if they hold an incorrect or old address, they could file a claim and you would know nothing about it and they would eventually obtain a CCJ by default. Once that happens, it is much more complex to get it set aside and can be expensive.
You need to make sure they have your correct address for service. If they don't or have a slightly incorrect address, you could face a world of financial pain should they obtain a CCJ by default. It's just not worth it.
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You ignore Trace and any other useless debt recovery company.
Here is a suggested response to the LoC:
Dear Sirs,
Your Ref. ############
Proposed Legal Proceedings
Claimant: xxxxxx xxxxxxxx Ltd
I refer to your your letter of claim.
I confirm that my address for service for the time being - assuming you don't delay any claim - is as follows, and any older address must be erased from your records:
[Correct address here]
The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
How am I expected to guess the basis of your clients allegations? If alleging breach of contract, please provide a breakdown of the alleged "loss" and state whether the intention of enforcement is for deterrence or revenue.
If alleging trespass, please enclose further evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
If a "contractual fee" is part of the amount claimed, I require a VAT invoice by return and an explanation from your client how they can allow drivers to park "in breach" for a fee if they were originally contracted to "disallow and deter" - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking.
I note that there is no breakdown of the alleged debt amount. Please provide a detailed breakdown of the different elements of the amount claimed in your Letter of Claim as required under the PAP. I expect to be able to differentiate between the initial charge amount and any added amounts such as, but not limited to, damages, debt recovery costs, contractual charges, etc. and the VAT element on any added charges.
I require specific answers to the following two questions and under the PAP I am entitled to detailed answers:
1. Does the £150 include what is often dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this net or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?
Yours faithfully
Thank you.
The hire company gave them the correct address but Wise Parking made a mistake in the spelling of the address hence probably why the PCN to the hirer was not received.
Why is it appropriate to give the correct address as you’ve suggested above?
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Trace cannot instruct anyone to do anything. Trace are not a party to any contract you have allegedly breached. Stop being fooled by anything that Trace or any other DRA throw at you. They are bottom-dwelling vermin that will not hesitate to try and scam you into believing that they have any power to do anything other than to scare you into wasting your money for their profit.
Only the parties to the alleged contract can do anything. The PPC will have instructed BW Legal to proceed with a claim.
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You are at LoC stage. Ignore Trace. Let them file their claim.
At any stage, have you identified as the "driver"? Hopefully not. You should only have ever communicated as the "Hirer".
Never identified as the driver.
I think it’s Trace who have instructed BW legal to start the legal proceedings, it’s all related to the same Wise Parking pen.
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You are at LoC stage. Ignore Trace. Let them file their claim.
At any stage, have you identified as the "driver"? Hopefully not. You should only have ever communicated as the "Hirer".
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You ignore Trace and any other useless debt recovery company.
Here is a suggested response to the LoC:
Dear Sirs,
Your Ref. ############
Proposed Legal Proceedings
Claimant: xxxxxx xxxxxxxx Ltd
I refer to your your letter of claim.
I confirm that my address for service for the time being - assuming you don't delay any claim - is as follows, and any older address must be erased from your records:
[Correct address here]
The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
How am I expected to guess the basis of your clients allegations? If alleging breach of contract, please provide a breakdown of the alleged "loss" and state whether the intention of enforcement is for deterrence or revenue.
If alleging trespass, please enclose further evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
If a "contractual fee" is part of the amount claimed, I require a VAT invoice by return and an explanation from your client how they can allow drivers to park "in breach" for a fee if they were originally contracted to "disallow and deter" - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking.
I note that there is no breakdown of the alleged debt amount. Please provide a detailed breakdown of the different elements of the amount claimed in your Letter of Claim as required under the PAP. I expect to be able to differentiate between the initial charge amount and any added amounts such as, but not limited to, damages, debt recovery costs, contractual charges, etc. and the VAT element on any added charges.
I require specific answers to the following two questions and under the PAP I am entitled to detailed answers:
1. Does the £150 include what is often dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this net or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?
Yours faithfully
Thank you.
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You were asked to submit a SAR to Wise. As far as I can see all you've done is phone.
Submit a SAR ASP.
And I suggest you also submit one to BWLegal, after all you want to know what 'we have made several efforts to contact you' means.
There's no point concerning yourself about the LoC because you don't know anything a out the claim, do you.
There’s has been no communication whatsoever from Wise Parking till I received a letter from Trace Debt Recovery regarding a debt owed Wise Parking. I then contacted Wise Parking via email as to the source of the debt but till date Wise Parking has not sent anything as to the source of the debt.
In the email comms.with Wise Parking, they claim the original pcn was sent to the hire company , who then gave them details of the hirer, however no reissued PCN was received by the hirer and when a copy and proof of postage was requested, they asking for confirmation of address before sending anything, and till date no PCN has been sighted by the hirer.
There’s also a spelling mistake in the address used by both Trace Debt Recovery and BW Legal.
Wise Parking also claim that as a company they do not issue tickets and affix them to vehicle, but they use a digital ticket hence the enforcement officer did not place the ticket on the vehicle.
(https://i.imgur.com/2SOzgRk.png)
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You ignore Trace and any other useless debt recovery company.
Here is a suggested response to the LoC:
Dear Sirs,
Your Ref. ############
Proposed Legal Proceedings
Claimant: xxxxxx xxxxxxxx Ltd
I refer to your your letter of claim.
I confirm that my address for service for the time being - assuming you don't delay any claim - is as follows, and any older address must be erased from your records:
[Correct address here]
The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
How am I expected to guess the basis of your clients allegations? If alleging breach of contract, please provide a breakdown of the alleged "loss" and state whether the intention of enforcement is for deterrence or revenue.
If alleging trespass, please enclose further evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
If a "contractual fee" is part of the amount claimed, I require a VAT invoice by return and an explanation from your client how they can allow drivers to park "in breach" for a fee if they were originally contracted to "disallow and deter" - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking.
I note that there is no breakdown of the alleged debt amount. Please provide a detailed breakdown of the different elements of the amount claimed in your Letter of Claim as required under the PAP. I expect to be able to differentiate between the initial charge amount and any added amounts such as, but not limited to, damages, debt recovery costs, contractual charges, etc. and the VAT element on any added charges.
I require specific answers to the following two questions and under the PAP I am entitled to detailed answers:
1. Does the £150 include what is often dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this net or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?
Yours faithfully
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You were asked to submit a SAR to Wise. As far as I can see all you've done is phone.
Submit a SAR ASP.
And I suggest you also submit one to BWLegal, after all you want to know what 'we have made several efforts to contact you' means.
There's no point concerning yourself about the LoC because you don't know anything a out the claim, do you.
There’s has been no communication whatsoever from Wise Parking till I received a letter from Trace Debt Recovery regarding a debt owed Wise Parking. I then contacted Wise Parking via email as to the source of the debt but till date Wise Parking has not sent anything as to the source of the debt.
(https://i.imgur.com/2SOzgRk.png)
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You were asked to submit a SAR to Wise. As far as I can see all you've done is phone.
Submit a SAR ASP.
And I suggest you also submit one to BWLegal, after all you want to know what 'we have made several efforts to contact you' means.
There's no point concerning yourself about the LoC because you don't know anything a out the claim, do you.
There’s has been no communication whatsoever from Wise Parking till I received a letter from Trace Debt Recovery regarding a debt owed Wise Parking. I then contacted Wise Parking via email as to the source of the debt but till date Wise Parking has not sent anything as to the source of the debt.
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A SAR is not advised at this stage. Let them file a claim with the usual woefully inadequate PoC which the defendant is unable to respond to properly which will fail to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4 and Practice Direction Part 16.
Once the claim is received, the OP can request a SAR. However, the defence will relate to the inadequate PoC and raise this for the courts consideration.
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You were asked to submit a SAR to Wise. As far as I can see all you've done is phone.
Submit a SAR ASP.
And I suggest you also submit one to BWLegal, after all you want to know what 'we have made several efforts to contact you' means.
There's no point concerning yourself about the LoC because you don't know anything a out the claim, do you.
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It's rather hard to advise on a document that you have seen, but we have not... If you show us a copy we might be able to advise. As a general rule if you're intending to fight this, a response to a Letter Before Claim should set out why you believe no money is owed, and why you won't be paying them.
Also, please don't make multiple posts chasing us to respond - it's been less than 24 hours, that's hardly a long time to wait for a response, especially when you have more than 3 weeks to respond to their LoC. This site is run by volunteers providing you advice free of charge, please be patient.
Apologies for the multiple posts.
Trying to upload the LoC but getting an error indicating the upload folder is full or contact administrator.
(https://i.imgur.com/ppPXo6G.jpeg)
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This thread advises on uploading using a third party site like Imgur: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
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It's rather hard to advise on a document that you have seen, but we have not... If you show us a copy we might be able to advise. As a general rule if you're intending to fight this, a response to a Letter Before Claim should set out why you believe no money is owed, and why you won't be paying them.
Also, please don't make multiple posts chasing us to respond - it's been less than 24 hours, that's hardly a long time to wait for a response, especially when you have more than 3 weeks to respond to their LoC. This site is run by volunteers providing you advice free of charge, please be patient.
Apologies for the multiple posts.
Trying to upload the LoC but getting an error indicating the upload folder is full or contact administrator.
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It's rather hard to advise on a document that you have seen, but we have not... If you show us a copy we might be able to advise. As a general rule if you're intending to fight this, a response to a Letter Before Claim should set out why you believe no money is owed, and why you won't be paying them.
Also, please don't make multiple posts chasing us to respond - it's been less than 24 hours, that's hardly a long time to wait for a response, especially when you have more than 3 weeks to respond to their LoC. This site is run by volunteers providing you advice free of charge, please be patient.
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You’re going to have to wait and see whether/if BW Legal send an LoC. Wise are an IPC company and there is no point in communicating with them except to demand your SAR.
If/when BWL send an LoC, come back for advice on how to respond. Unless they give up, you want this to go to court as a judge is the only truly independent arbiter on whether you owe Wise a debt or not.
In the meantime, they are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who will capitulate and pay into their scam once you get threatening letters or a court claim. As long as you are here getting advice, you can ignore them until/if an LoC arrives.
Thank you.
Will do.
LoC received today, response before 6th July 2024
Please any advice on responding to the LoC.
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You’re going to have to wait and see whether/if BW Legal send an LoC. Wise are an IPC company and there is no point in communicating with them except to demand your SAR.
If/when BWL send an LoC, come back for advice on how to respond. Unless they give up, you want this to go to court as a judge is the only truly independent arbiter on whether you owe Wise a debt or not.
In the meantime, they are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who will capitulate and pay into their scam once you get threatening letters or a court claim. As long as you are here getting advice, you can ignore them until/if an LoC arrives.
Thank you.
Will do.
LoC received today, response before 6th July 2024
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LoC received today, response before 6th July 2024
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You’re going to have to wait and see whether/if BW Legal send an LoC. Wise are an IPC company and there is no point in communicating with them except to demand your SAR.
If/when BWL send an LoC, come back for advice on how to respond. Unless they give up, you want this to go to court as a judge is the only truly independent arbiter on whether you owe Wise a debt or not.
In the meantime, they are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who will capitulate and pay into their scam once you get threatening letters or a court claim. As long as you are here getting advice, you can ignore them until/if an LoC arrives.
Thank you.
Will do.
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Yes, checked correct details given but Wise has made a mistake in the spelling of part of the address, which is detected on the letters from the DCA ( Debt Collection)
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You’re going to have to wait and see whether/if BW Legal send an LoC. Wise are an IPC company and there is no point in communicating with them except to demand your SAR.
If/when BWL send an LoC, come back for advice on how to respond. Unless they give up, you want this to go to court as a judge is the only truly independent arbiter on whether you owe Wise a debt or not.
In the meantime, they are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who will capitulate and pay into their scam once you get threatening letters or a court claim. As long as you are here getting advice, you can ignore them until/if an LoC arrives.
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Just to rule it out, have you checked that the hire company (a) have the correct details, and (b) passed the ckfedxf details on to Wise?
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The hire company responded with the ckedfx details on 11th January 2024. Not seen any NtH .
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Had they complied, I have yet to see any PPC provide all the documents listed in 13(2)(a), (b) and (c). Without seeing the NtK and the NtH, we don’t know about any date compliance.
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Can I get more education on PoFa 13(2).
From reading it clearly indicates they’ve not complied with the section of the 21 day period to send the NtH.
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Thanks for the responses.
Wise Parking was contacted via email to ascertain the source of the debt since no NtH has been received till date.
Wise Parking requested for provision of address to send the NtH which was surprising since they would have been provided the address of the hirer by the hiring company (NtK), why would they request for the address?
No identity of the driver has been given.
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As above a Subject Access Request to Wise would be a good idea.
There's a very good chance they haven't complied with PoFA, I've only ever seen two cases where a parking company met all the relevant conditions for hirer liability, it's very rare!
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Stop trying to contact them. Please tell us that you have not revealed the identity of the driver.
You have been contacted as the “hirer”. They have no idea who was driving. Even if they had sent you a Notice to Hirer (NtH), you would not be liable as I have yet to see any PPC correctly comply with the requirements of PoFA in order to transfer liability from the driver to the hirer.
Have Wise sent you a copy of the NtH or the NtK? Did you send them a Subject Access Request (SAR) or was this just a phone call? Any phone calls are not worth the paper they aren’t written on. Email, with or without attachments, is your best form of comms.
Had you sent Wise an SAR they would have been required to respond within 30 days otherwise face sanctions from the ICO.
Wise were required to comply with the strict requirements of PoFA paras 13 and 14. As mentioned, I have yet to see any unregulated private parking company comply fully with those requirements. Have a read of it yourself here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
Not one PPC ever complies with the requirements of PoFA 13(2).
A PCN when in a hire car or leased vehicle is a “golden ticket” as long as the hirer does not reveal the drivers identity. As long as you have not revealed the identity of the driver, stop trying to communicate with them now.
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Received a debt collection letter from BW legal regarding a private parking charge notice issued 27th December 2023 on a hire vehicle by Wise Parking Ltd. Wise Parking have not sent any PCN to the hirer even though they collected the hirer’s details from the hire company.
Got to know about this when Trace Debt recovery sent a letter dated 19th February 2024 demanding £150 for debt related to the PCN issued by Wise Parking, when Wise Parking was contacted regarding the PCN , they claimed to have sent it but could not provide the date/address or proof of postage. They provided a vague response of middle of January 2024 as date sent and asked for address details to post a copy of PCN, which they should have.
BW legal then issues another letter dated 28th March 2024 demanding £150(£70 for debt recovery costs) for the same PCN which has never been received to be paid by 2nd May 2024 or they will issue a LBC(letter before claim).
Wise Parking Ltd indicate the PCN was issued by an attendant but no ticket was placed on the vehicle and it was manned.
Tried to contact BW Legal but to no avail, any advice would help.