Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Twasbrillig on April 21, 2024, 12:32:38 pm
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@Twasbrillig well done indeed!
Obviously the force was with you :)
Outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zylytx0pc6fGdIV3aJVFMPmiQT1VCTs2/view).
This just shows what pieces of dogpoo they really are. This sort of thing really disgusts me, and if I were in power, such acts would result in instant dismissal without compensation.
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For future reference, here is The Ealing (Ravenor School Street) (No. 1) Traffic Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G27FmSLTv9uZtwuh_HW95joBW6BHbdB6/view).
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@Twasbrillig well done indeed!
Obviously the force was with you :)
Outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zylytx0pc6fGdIV3aJVFMPmiQT1VCTs2/view).
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I WON!!
Clearly the TMO shows 9.10 conflicting with the INCORRECT sign showing 9.20. Idiot council, wasting everyone's time.
Well done !
Can you give us the case number please.
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I WON!!
Clearly the TMO shows 9.10 conflicting with the INCORRECT sign showing 9.20. Idiot council, wasting everyone's time.
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Yes the council has contested the case.
I'm looking forward to the tribunal. Thank you for the offer to attend but I'm happy to do this myself.
@Twasbrillig why don't you upload a redacted copy of evidence item B so that we can double check?
By the way when's your hearing?
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Yes the council has contested the case.
I'm looking forward to the tribunal. Thank you for the offer to attend but I'm happy to do this myself.
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@Twasbrillig I have no idea, has the council contested your case?
You can easily check by logging onto the tribunal portal at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and checking if they're uploaded any evidence, if they have then the traffic order they rely on will be at evidence item B.
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Just saw at the very bottom of the traffic order, the morning restricted time finishes at 9.10!
The sign says 9.20 and I was filmed at 9.18, so definitely a blatant contradiction with the order.
That should definitely win my case don't you think?
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Hello again cp8759
I hadn't been on this site since the last post in April as there was nothing to comment on.
My tribunal is being heard 5th June.
So from the traffic order you received, how should this be interpreted in my case??
Thank you in advance.
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IMO, the alleged contravention is 'Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone'.
So, what's a Pedestrian Zone?
The TSRGD defines this as:
"pedestrian zone”
an area—
(a)
which has been laid out to improve amenity for pedestrians; and
(b)
to which the entry of vehicles is prohibited or restricted
I can't see that (a) is a matter for a TMO, therefore only (b) applies.
So, does the TMO provide that 'the entry of vehicles is prohibited or restricted' and is this signed accordingly?
'3. No person shall cause any motor vehicle to enter or proceed in the prescribed street....'
Seems to meet the criterion.
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@Twasbrillig you seem to have disappeared but I've now received this from the council:
(https://i.imgur.com/ba3CYqF.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CLXBfOk.png)
The traffic order itself is The Ealing (Ravenor School Street) (No. 1) Traffic Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G27FmSLTv9uZtwuh_HW95joBW6BHbdB6/view) and it makes no mention of any pedestrian zone.
I can see you've filed an appeal, I suggest you don't try and do this all yourself or you risk ending up like one of these cases:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/eta-appeal-lost/
Please let us know when your hearing is.
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@Twasbrillig unfortunately we're a bit short-staffed at the moment, we struggle with recruitment somewhat given the pay rate for expert advice of £0 per hour.
Anyway, I think you might have an argument on signage but we can't really advice based on incomplete information, please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) and then re-post the PCN with nothing redacted apart from your name and address.
In the meantime I've requested the traffic order.
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Thank you for your added response. Although you said it's a long shot on one point I hope that with both points emphasised I will get a positive response from the tribunal. It will definitely depend on the adjudicator. Fingers and toes crossed. I wonder if anything said by the council in their Notice of Rejection is worth raising? Were you able to read it?
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That's very helpful Incandescent 🙂
On that basis would you agree it's worth appealing?
It would be a long shot on its own, I think. Basically, if you're going to take them to London Tribunals, the main point would be the 2 minutes before the end of the restriction, pointing out that car clocks are rarely accurate to the nearest minute or two, and then secondly the sign not showing the restrictions imposed by the TRO.
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That's very helpful Incandescent 🙂
On that basis would you agree it's worth appealing?
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Further to my last comment, there has been a recent case in London where the adjudicator ruled in the appellants favour because the sign did not reflect the Traffic Regulation Order establishing the restriction, so if the TRO is specific that the restriction only applies in term times, you could appeal on this basis.
Councils have a duty in The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to place signs that convey the restriction to motorists.(see Regulation 18 (1)(a))
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
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Thank you for your response.
Were you able to read the NoR from the council?
They claim the signs are adequate. The fact that "in term times" is omitted would that not amount to insufficient signage as the restriction should not be effective when schools are closed.
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The 2 minutes might win it for you, but the lack of notice probably won't. Like all London councils, only the money counts for them. If it were me, I'd take them to London Tribunals on the 3 minutes and lack of notice, but in my opinion a win is not guaranteed. However see what the others say, but don't miss the deadline for payment of the discount if you decide not to fight the PCN.
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I started my post on Pepipoo but since then the site has gone down, that's the reason why all the info isn't here.
My challenge was:
"I was only 2 minutes away from the end of the prohibited time. Is this not a 'de minimus' case?
Also I discovered that in another school street a few roads away, the time ends at 09.15 so if I'd been in that road at 09.18 it wouldn't have mattered. I wonder why it's 9.15 in one street and 9.20 in another in the same area?
I'm asking the council to exercise it's discretion and cancel the ticket. I am local but was unaware of the new restriction, had not seen any publicity about it. Unfortunately I missed seeing the signs as they are placed high up. However now I'm aware and will take care to observe the restriction.
Can you give me the reasons for the Order and the Order itself?
This restriction can only operate in term times, so the signage is inadequate under Reg 18 LATOR 1996 because it doesn't state "term times". Therefore the signage is deficient."
I have also enquired from the School Streets department of the council as to which residents of the nearby streets received notification of the pending time restrictions as it's a new law that's been created. I received a map of the streets who were informed. Residents on the south side of my street received notification, the north side didn't which is the side I'm on. So I was not made aware of the council's intention to put time restrictions in the road. This is a new policy which I had not seen advertised. I asked the council why the notifications were not sent to the whole street I live in but haven't received a response.
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Anybody there? :-\
People here have day jobs, y'know and may go on holiday ocasionally.
You've given us no narrative at all and it took some time for me to work out that you'd driven past a "Flying Motorbike" sign. I see advance warning sign, a No Right Turn sign with times, and a car passing a Flying Motorbike sign. You haven't posted your representations, so please do so, or tell us why you think the PCN should be cancelled.
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Anybody there? :-\
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https://tinypic.host/album/PCN-AO100956A.DhlOx
Does this work?
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https://tinypic.host/album/AO0100956A.Dvtv5
Not visible
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https://tinypic.host/album/AO0100956A.Dvtv5
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Following on from my challenge to a PCN, I
received a Notice of Rejection of formal Representations. I have 11 days to pay the £65 or to further challenge at appeal.
I attach their letter and Notice of Appeal and notes for Appeal.
Should I take to Appeal?
(Please let me know if attachments are not visible).There are 5 pics.
(https://tinypic.host/album/AO0100956A.Dvtv5)