Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: chopwell20 on April 19, 2024, 02:37:37 pm

Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: Incandescent on September 10, 2024, 09:29:45 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q3REZ5Xu5xooiG-6GZFiN6PuzeK-jurs/view).
Adjudicator Robinson seems to be playing fast and loose with the requirements of the regulations. A copy of a PCN must be a copy of it; how can "substantial compliance" apply to a legal requirement is beyond me.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: cp8759 on September 10, 2024, 07:12:10 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q3REZ5Xu5xooiG-6GZFiN6PuzeK-jurs/view).
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on July 05, 2024, 01:45:18 pm
@cp8759 hope all is well.
i receeived my notice of rejection today.
attaching all redacted pages here for further instructions please.

Kind Regards.

(https://i.ibb.co/Pjsxkzf/Notice-of-rejection-4-July-24-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T2DcyqF)
(https://i.ibb.co/zmWgwnH/Notice-of-rejection-4-July-24-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tHw65mP)
(https://i.ibb.co/tzNvbYC/Notice-of-rejection-4-July-24-Redacted-Page-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0KW6fYJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/n8TywPs/Notice-of-rejection-4-July-24-Redacted-Page-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZdY8Jv)
(https://i.ibb.co/QYFZkhj/Notice-of-rejection-4-July-24-Redacted-Page-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPh1FCH)
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on May 29, 2024, 11:36:29 am
Morning .. just to add my experience. NTO representation was made as advised and screenshot were taken but no confirmation received from council, and acknowledged the importance of screenshot in this scenario.

Kind regards.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on May 23, 2024, 02:24:45 pm
@chopwell20 I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Dear Southend-on-Sea Borough Council,

The PCN carries a premium rate telephone number, and I contend that as in Bateman available at LINK this results in the amount demanded exceeding the amount due by law. While I appreciate other payment methods are available, binding authority from the High Court in the case of London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) determined that where one payment method carries a surcharge, the availability of other payment methods is irrelevant and the penalty demanded is excessive.

It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via the council website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

amazing - as some would say nib on the bud. i guess i am saying it correctly.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 07:25:22 pm
@chopwell20 I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Dear Southend-on-Sea Borough Council,

The PCN carries a premium rate telephone number, and I contend that as in Bateman available at LINK this results in the amount demanded exceeding the amount due by law. While I appreciate other payment methods are available, binding authority from the High Court in the case of London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) determined that where one payment method carries a surcharge, the availability of other payment methods is irrelevant and the penalty demanded is excessive.

It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via the council website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on May 20, 2024, 03:47:36 pm
@cp8759 Hi hope you are well. Thank you for your time as advised please see this for your kind attention .

Hello again.

I have received NTO today.
as advised please see the pictures attached.

(https://i.ibb.co/XX0z2Vx/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XX0z2Vx) (https://i.ibb.co/yspzWXk/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yspzWXk) (https://i.ibb.co/BZ5ZWb3/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZ5ZWb3) (https://i.ibb.co/Fntwd42/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fntwd42) (https://i.ibb.co/k1n3VvB/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1n3VvB) (https://i.ibb.co/D1wQ4hZ/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D1wQ4hZ)


Thanks
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on May 17, 2024, 01:13:17 pm
Hello again.

I have received NTO today.
as advised please see the pictures attached.

(https://i.ibb.co/XX0z2Vx/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XX0z2Vx) (https://i.ibb.co/yspzWXk/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yspzWXk) (https://i.ibb.co/BZ5ZWb3/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZ5ZWb3) (https://i.ibb.co/Fntwd42/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fntwd42) (https://i.ibb.co/k1n3VvB/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1n3VvB) (https://i.ibb.co/D1wQ4hZ/New-Doc-05-17-2024-13-03-Redacted-Page-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D1wQ4hZ)


Thanks
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 29, 2024, 10:17:16 pm
Thanks, soon i receive anything will be posted promptly here for further instructions.

Many Thanks
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2024, 08:42:01 pm
Let us know when the NTO comes through and I'll draft something for you.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: Incandescent on April 28, 2024, 12:35:38 pm
now the step is to wait for Notice to Owner right!
Correct
Are you the keeper on the V5 Registration Certificate, and is the address up-to-date and the same now as it was on the day of the alleged contravention ?
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 28, 2024, 12:10:15 pm
now the step is to wait for Notice to Owner right!
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 24, 2024, 09:38:58 pm
@chopwell20 that's a shame as you'd have very strong grounds to appeal based on Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view), and one of us would have undoubtedly offered to represent you at the tribunal (I represented Mr Bateman).

@Incandescent going forward please make sure to check for telephone numbers on the back of the PCN before giving advice.


Thank God .. havent paid it yet.


back of the PCN as listed above and here it now

(https://i.ibb.co/Kw51vB2/PCN-14-Apr24-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6BydCGH)
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: cp8759 on April 22, 2024, 11:11:02 pm
Just thinking though. Could this argument be overturned by an adjudicator saying it is so trivial it's de minimis, despite the case in the High COurt ? For instance, if the call took 10 minutes, it would cost the PCN recipient 10p more against a discounted penalty of £35.
All litigation carries a degree of risk, but my answer to that point is simple: If the council starts issuing PCNs for £70.10 instead of £70, is that OK? How about £70.30? Or £70.50? At this point why not £71? Where do you draw the line?

I would say the whole purpose of having fixed amounts set by law is that the amount is fixed by law and that's the end of that.

After all, I very much doubt a council would accept a payment of £69 as being "substantially sufficient" and they'd just issue a charge certificate for £105 - £69 = £36, backed up by a threat of bailiffs if the outstanding amount is not paid within 14 days.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: Incandescent on April 22, 2024, 11:04:41 pm
@chopwell20 that's a shame as you'd have very strong grounds to appeal based on Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view), and one of us would have undoubtedly offered to represent you at the tribunal (I represented Mr Bateman).

@Incandescent going forward please make sure to check for telephone numbers on the back of the PCN before giving advice.
God, yes !!  I thought this issue had been put to bed aeons ago. Obviously not !  However, in his last post the OP seemed to have quite a lot on his plate already. No excuse though. I shall be more diligent in future.

Just thinking though. Could this argument be overturned by an adjudicator saying it is so trivial it's de minimis, despite the case in the High COurt ? For instance, if the call took 10 minutes, it would cost the PCN recipient 10p more against a discounted penalty of £35.

Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: cp8759 on April 22, 2024, 10:19:33 pm
@chopwell20 that's a shame as you'd have very strong grounds to appeal based on Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd/view), and one of us would have undoubtedly offered to represent you at the tribunal (I represented Mr Bateman).

@Incandescent going forward please make sure to check for telephone numbers on the back of the PCN before giving advice.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 20, 2024, 01:14:55 pm
So you didn't notice the signs as you entered York Road, then ? 

The whole area is a permit parking zone. What also seems to have mislead you is the repeater sign where you parked is shown in GSV June 2023 turned round so it doesn't face the carriageway. If you look at the previous GSV view (November 2020) the sign is the correct way round and right by your car.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ow4yiz3tusgqFgfu6

It's now your decision as to whether to take them all the way to adjudication, or cough-up the discount. I don't like the location information, which, if this was a postal PCN to the owner, would be grounds for cancellation on wrong location, but here the PCN is served to your car, and the street name is correct. You could argue that you saw no repeater sign, and had missed the entry sign due to traffic requiring your attention when turning, but there are two signs that seem clear enough on GSV. It would be a gamble in my opinion.

Given my current situation with a pending representation and dealing with a county court private charge notice claim, I'm inclined to consider taking advantage of the discount and settling the fine. It seems like contesting this further could indeed be a gamble, especially considering the presence of clear signs in the area.
While I appreciate your suggestion about the potential grounds for cancellation based on location information, I agree that since the PCN was served to my car and the street name is correct, arguing on these grounds may not be very effective.
Your input has been valuable in helping me weigh my options. I'll proceed with paying the discounted fine and focus my efforts on resolving the other outstanding matters.
Thank you again for your assistance.
Best regards.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: Incandescent on April 20, 2024, 12:52:48 am
So you didn't notice the signs as you entered York Road, then ? 

The whole area is a permit parking zone. What also seems to have mislead you is the repeater sign where you parked is shown in GSV June 2023 turned round so it doesn't face the carriageway. If you look at the previous GSV view (November 2020) the sign is the correct way round and right by your car.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ow4yiz3tusgqFgfu6

It's now your decision as to whether to take them all the way to adjudication, or cough-up the discount. I don't like the location information, which, if this was a postal PCN to the owner, would be grounds for cancellation on wrong location, but here the PCN is served to your car, and the street name is correct. You could argue that you saw no repeater sign, and had missed the entry sign due to traffic requiring your attention when turning, but there are two signs that seem clear enough on GSV. It would be a gamble in my opinion.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 19, 2024, 11:35:50 pm
Very puzzling because Stanley Road is not near the Kursall, which stands on Southchurch Avenue (A1160), and here it is: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bRGVdc87XpJ5xPTz9

However, further up Southchurch Avenue where one turns into York road, giving access to Stanley Road is this sign,
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9EpqQfEthtbEe51L9
 indicating a Permit Parking ZOne that requires no signs or lines inside the zone, although I see there are repeater signs. You need to tell us exactly where you parked, preferably with a GSV link and pointing out the location. Also tell us your route to the parking location.

Here are the signs at the other end of York Road,
https://maps.app.goo.gl/i9MVcYovMeAH9Dgw9
but this is 2012, if you look at GSV for 2023, the signs are not clear at all, one being turned round and the other obscured by trees.


Thanks

I was exactly parked at >>>>>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/7tyDnLXoU6ixSdfu6

coming from kursaal on Southchurch avenue then turned left to york road exactly as you stated where the sings are on entrance >>>>>>https://maps.app.goo.gl/9EpqQfEthtbEe51L9

and exited the street from other end of york road to Queenway road >> https://maps.app.goo.gl/2i7aAkKj3exrNNjCA

Route taken. starting from southchurch avenue and exiting on queensway and parked at stanley road

(https://i.ibb.co/gRNwV3n/Route-taken.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Krd7wX1)


Dashcam footage of entering and exiting the area.

https://youtu.be/bL7uIGYTMMM
https://youtu.be/N_e1TqKt0xE

https://youtu.be/N_e1TqKt0xE (https://youtu.be/bL7uIGYTMMM)
Regards.
Title: Re: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: Incandescent on April 19, 2024, 08:08:06 pm
Very puzzling because Stanley Road is not near the Kursall, which stands on Southchurch Avenue (A1160), and here it is: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bRGVdc87XpJ5xPTz9

However, further up Southchurch Avenue where one turns into York road, giving access to Stanley Road is this sign,
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9EpqQfEthtbEe51L9
 indicating a Permit Parking ZOne that requires no signs or lines inside the zone, although I see there are repeater signs. You need to tell us exactly where you parked, preferably with a GSV link and pointing out the location. Also tell us your route to the parking location.

Here are the signs at the other end of York Road,
https://maps.app.goo.gl/i9MVcYovMeAH9Dgw9
but this is 2012, if you look at GSV for 2023, the signs are not clear at all, one being turned round and the other obscured by trees.

Title: Southend, code 12 Parked in a resident or shared, Stanley Road (kursaal)
Post by: chopwell20 on April 19, 2024, 02:37:37 pm
Contravention date: 14/04/2024
Online challange via email: 16/04/2024
Response of no considering: 19/04/2024


I wanted to share an experience I had recently while visiting Southend Sea with my family on April 14. I used Parkopedia to find what was indicated as free parking in the area. Based on this information, I parked my vehicle away from any signage, assuming it was permissible.

To my surprise, upon returning to my vehicle, I found a parking ticket. I immediately reached out to challenge the ticket via email.

Today, I received a response stating that my explanation was not considered valid, but I was offered a discounted rate to settle the fine.

I'm reaching out to this forum seeking advice and guidance on how to proceed further. Is there anyone who has experienced a similar situation or who might have insights into contesting such tickets effectively?

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


------------------
PCN
------------------
(https://i.ibb.co/W5qK1hh/PCN-14-Apr24-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SyWvpjj)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kw51vB2/PCN-14-Apr24-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6BydCGH)
--------------------------
Representation made:
---------------------------
(https://i.ibb.co/Cmhkv5D/Urgent-Formal-Challenge-to-challange-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZGWnK67)
(https://i.ibb.co/st7y2K1/Urgent-Formal-Challenge-to-challange-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3kKB7pF)
---------------
Response:
---------------
(https://i.ibb.co/VLLD2nC/P0000687651-converted-Redacted-Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9pp2sK4)
(https://i.ibb.co/VMZTvMR/P0000687651-converted-Redacted-Page-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Pp9jPq)
(https://i.ibb.co/cF64GNf/P0000687651-converted-Redacted-Page-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gTSk5Dq)