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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: belt on April 17, 2024, 02:37:33 am

Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on May 29, 2024, 11:27:30 am
All your help was very much appreciated; the reply letter was bilingual (I s'pose they use a cut-and-paste template for that).

Unfortunately my father somehow managed to get another PCN (different council, different circumstances), so I'm going to have to start a new thread!
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 03:55:45 pm
@belt thanks for letting us know, teamwork really paid off on this one. By the way was the reply in English or Welsh?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on May 22, 2024, 12:02:05 am
Diolch am hynny, falch o glywed :)
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on May 21, 2024, 11:22:13 am
Hello again,

Apologies for the delay in response (family stuff).

I can confirm it was submitted. My father received a response just a few days ago:

"I am pleased to inform you that on this occasion your explanation has been accepted and
the Penalty Charge has now been cancelled.
Please ensure to read the signage in the future to avoid further PCN being issued to you.
If you are issued further PCNs for the same contravention, these may not be cancelled."


Many thanks for all your help, it's been most appreciated!
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 08:30:02 pm
Not sure if @belt is still around but an edit (I can't edit the above post?) replace "seilen" with "sail" as I've been told "grounds" can only be used in the plural
Done, I see belt has been back today so hopefully he's submitted that.

@belt please could you confirm?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on May 15, 2024, 08:02:51 pm
Not sure if @belt is still around but an edit (I can't edit the above post?) replace "seilen" with "sail" as I've been told "grounds" can only be used in the plural
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on May 09, 2024, 10:00:54 pm
@cp8759
tagging @belt as they haven't been on since May 1st

With apologies for the time taken, I've been away. I was after the Welsh of the Order to get the title, and also to find out if "on street parking" and "off street parking" has a legal translation as what we use everyday seems literal but colloquial, Still, if they haven't got a Welsh version already, it doesn't seem to be relevant, I've therefore just put the English title in. (Must admit I thought the Welsh Language Act required public bodies to have it in both languages)

Anyway, try this. Note Anyone from the South will know that I have done this more as we would in the Gogledd.

Not 100% the 'sieve' comment works well in Welsh but it's in there as requested. I can't think of a Welsh idiom.


Annwyl Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe,

Rydw i'n herio atebolrwydd ar y sail y na wnaeth ddigwydd y drosedd honedig.
Mae'r arwydd yn dangos “Deiliaid bathodyn anabledd a thrwydded yn unig”. Mae gen I fathodyn glas ac mae gen i drwydded yrru hefyd, felly roedd hi'n amlwg yr oedd y lle ar gael i mi. Ar frig fy nhrwyddedd yrru ydy'r geiriau “Trwydded Yrru”.

Bellach, mae'r Hysbysiad Tal Cosb yn honni trosedd ar-y-stryd, ond mae “THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY AND COUNTY OF SWANSEA THE ROTUNDA CARRIAGEWAY FRONTING THE GUILDHALL OFF STREET PARKING PLACE ORDER Traffic Regulation Order 2019” yn nodi mai maes parcio oddi-ar-y-stryd ydy hwn. Felly, dydy hi ddim yn bosib cael trosedd ar-y-stryd yn y fan hyn.

Erthygl 20(f) y gorchymyn yn nodi bod y mannau ar gael i ddeiliaid caniatadau G neu M, ond does dim byd ar yr arwydd ynglŷn â fathau caniatadau. Felly, mae'r arwydd yn hollol annigonol. Hefyd, byddwn i'n ychwanegu, y ffordd mae'r gorchymyn wedi cael ei ysgrifenni, mae deiliad caniatad G neu M yn cael parcio yn y mannau hyn, oes gynnyn nhw fathodyn glas ai beidio. Mae'n ymddangos, felly, bod hyn yn trechu pwrpas yn mannau hyn.

Yn olaf, mae erthygl 21 y gorchymyn yn rhoi eithriad llwyr i'r cyfyngiad i ddeiliaid bathodyn glas. Mae hyn yn amddiffyniad llwyr i'r drosedd honedig.

Mae gan achos y cyngor mwy o dyllau na rhidyll. Byddwn i'n awgrymu eich bod chi yn canslo'r Hysbysiad Tal Cosb, yn lle parhau efo'r mater ac yn codi cywilydd ar eich hunain.

Yn gywir,
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on May 09, 2024, 12:39:13 am
@northwalian just got this back from the council:

We have not published a Welsh version of the Order as The Welsh Language Standards (No. 1) Regulations 2015 applies to County Councils, within which Sch 2 Part 1 Standards 69 and 70 covers notices, but Sch 1 Part 3 Para 41 exempts us from that element of translating PTRO notices. However, we can have the TRO translated for you if you still wish for a copy.

Do you want me to ask them to translate it?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on May 03, 2024, 07:40:24 pm
I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please, preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders on their website
@northwalian I only have the English version here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z9Gl-gKn4xd4EA1FNRu9NRJPS1ABwwwT/view). I'll ask for the Welsh one but it could take up until 6 June to get it back, so we might have to make do with the English one.

@H C Andersen I agree it's a procedural mess, but that's not a reason not to give the council every opportunity to mess it up even more.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: H C Andersen on May 02, 2024, 12:10:28 pm
Can I row back pl.

The PCN relates to an on-street contravention, not off-street car park.

As such, the signs must conform to the Traffic etc. signs regs which, as observed, apply to England and Wales.

What do the photos show?

A car parked within a box marked in yellow with the International Symbol of Access marked inside, again in yellow. The box markings create an area and are not simply lines. Ahead of the car is what resembles - in its size, colour, layout and content - a specified traffic sign.

However, the markings are not prescribed for use on a road, neither is the ISA nor the upright traffic sign itself.

Is the location covered by the posted off-street order, in which case the contravention grounds are incorrect. A driver/owner entitled to know exactly what contravention of an order is being alleged. In this case IMO the omission of the words 'car park' mean that a driver/owner would/could not formulate a defence based upon improper traffic signs and failure to comply with LATOR because this does not apply off-street.

As regards the upright sign, this may include a type of user and where this is a permit holder a permit identifier which is defined as:

any upper case letter or letters, with or without a number, whether or not placed on a patch which may be of any colour, where the letter and, as the case may be, number are of any size, in a colour that contrasts with the background on which they are placed and indicate a type of permit

IMO, it's a procedural mess which should not succeed at adjudication, whether held in English or Welsh!
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on May 02, 2024, 09:59:57 am
I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please, preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders on their website
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on May 01, 2024, 09:29:35 pm
Well upon reflection, I have concluded that this case is really open and shut, so much so that if they pursued this I think they might end up on the hook for a costs order.

The problem with this sort of case is that the traffic order will have been made years ago and until someone challenges a PCN to the tribunal, the traffic order never gets any proper scrutiny (and even if someone did make a complaint about the issues with the traffic order absent a PCN, I suspect the council would either tell them to take a hike, or say the issue would be looked into some time maybe never).

@northwalian here you go:

Dear City and County of Swansea Council,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. The sign states "Deiliaid bathodyn anabledd a trwydded yn unig", I am a blue badge holder and I have a driving licence so I understood the space to be available to me. My Trwydded Yrru says says "Trwydded Yrru" right at the top.

Furthermore, the penalty charge notice alleges an on-street contravention but the traffic order is The Council of the City and County of Swansea the Rotunda Carriageway Fronting the Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place Order Traffic Regulation Order 2019, which very much indicates this is an off-street car park, so an on-street contravention could not possibly occur.

Article 20(f) of the order indicates the bays are available to holders of permits G or M, but nothing on the traffic sign make any reference to any such permits, so the signage is plainly inadequate. I would add that as the order is drafted, the holder of a G or M permit is entitled to park in these bays regardless of whether they have a blue badge, which would seem to defeat the purpose of these bays.

Lastly article 21 of the traffic order provides a complete exemption to the restriction for blue badge holders, and that is a complete defence to the allegation.

Given that the council's case has more holes than a sieve, I would suggest you cancel the penalty now rather than pursuing this matter further and embarrassing yourselves.

Yours faithfully,

@belt once a Welsh translation of the draft has been provided please send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If the council is foolish enough to reject I'll sort out the representation for you at the notice to owner stage, I'll just need a letter of authority from your father.

Whatever happens don't let your father be tempted to give in and pay, as that would literally be throwing money away for nothing.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2024, 06:07:24 pm
I'll draft something as soon as I get a chance, in the meantime here's The Council of the City and County of Swansea the Rotunda Carriageway Fronting the Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place Order Traffic Regulation Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z9Gl-gKn4xd4EA1FNRu9NRJPS1ABwwwT/view), I've not had a chance to look through it in detail yet, but one obvious issue is that the title of the order suggests it's an off-street car park and the code on the PCN is for an on-street contravention, and also the sign doesn't tell you that it's only for permit types G or M (and maybe if the sign said this it would have been clearer what the meaning is.

There is also the fact that the exemption at 20(f) allows any vehicle with a G or M permit to park, regardless of whether there is a disabled badge, which defeats the whole purpose of the restriction.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: ManxTom on April 28, 2024, 02:48:14 pm
Wouldn't it be sufficient simply to point out to the adjudicator that the sign's meaning as expressed in the Welsh language is different from its meaning as expressed in English?

If the OP's father is bi-lingual and can see the difference, how can he reasonably be expected to know whether he needed a "licence" as indicated in Welsh (thrwydded) or a "permit" as the English says (which would have been "caniatad" in Welsh).

If the sign is bi-linguinal but expresses different meanings in both languages, how is the motorist to know what they need in order to be able to park legitimately?

Would asking for a meeting in Welsh complicate it unnecesssarily?


(NB  -  I can't speak Manx let alone Welsh.  I'm simply taking northwalian's explanation at face value)
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: Incandescent on April 28, 2024, 12:03:39 am
that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?
For most adjudications, the only attendees are the appellant and the adjudicator. The enforcing authority usually don't attend.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on April 27, 2024, 09:51:53 pm
that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: Incandescent on April 27, 2024, 09:41:02 pm
Go for it, but I have to say the difference between the spoken Welsh we use up here in the north is a million miles from anything written for legal or semi-legal needs. (compare street English and what's in the Bible). I'd use English myself for something 'important'.
Certainly happy to translate but wouldn't it end up in a Welsh-language tribunal hearing?
That's the whole point ! 
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on April 27, 2024, 09:31:03 pm
Go for it, but I have to say the difference between the spoken Welsh we use up here in the north is a million miles from anything written for legal or semi-legal needs. (compare street English and what's in the Bible). I'd use English myself for something 'important'.
Certainly happy to translate but wouldn't it end up in a Welsh-language tribunal hearing?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on April 27, 2024, 06:13:24 pm
Well I can see why people would easily get caught out here:

(https://i.imgur.com/Bq4VlEx.jpeg)

@northwalian if I draft a representation would you be able to repost it in Welsh?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on April 23, 2024, 03:03:26 am
The PCN number is WJ06163498.

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: cp8759 on April 22, 2024, 11:21:13 pm
@belt well this could be fun, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal does allow proceedings to be conducted in Welsh so it should be possible to request a Welsh-speaking adjudicator.

Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18) obviously apply to Wales so I would argue the signage is inadequate.

However this would have to be taken to the tribunal as I doubt the council would concede its signage is inadequate.

Can we have the PCN number please? As per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), there's no point in hiding it.

In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order, the last time we looked at a bay such as this the traffic order turned out not to exist.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on April 21, 2024, 05:14:35 pm
Yes, put it in. Is he a a native Welsh speaker ?

Not a native Welsh speaker but as an additional language (like most in Swansea).

He read the Welsh version as he understood it completely.

Reading it once in each language, he expected more clarity... unfortunately the two versions give slightly different meanings.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: Incandescent on April 19, 2024, 01:08:53 pm
Yes, put it in. Is he a a native Welsh speaker ?
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on April 19, 2024, 11:24:05 am
Many thanks for all your help.

I am going to aid him to make an informal representation on the basis you have suggested, Incandescent.


By the way "Trwydded" does indeed mean "licence" in Welsh. His driving licence says "Trwydded Yrru" right at the top.

Adding to the confusion the parking ticket uses a different word for "permit": "hawlen".

Perhaps this should be mentioned to them?


Thanks again.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: Incandescent on April 17, 2024, 10:17:10 pm
Obviously he didn't notice this sign as he entered the Guildhall Rotunda car park, which is for permit holders and council visitors only : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fGQuBrodzJvrtjxW7
I presume if you are a council visitor, you have to register your car at the council offices on arrival.
As a car park, it has spaces set aside for BB holders, but obviously, the overriding need for a permit remains.
I think he should submit informal reps against the PCN stating that the sign for the car park conditions is set very low at the entry point so he must have missed it, and ask for them to cancel on this ocasion. ALso make sure you include details of the BB and clock which was displayed as normally required.
Title: Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: northwalian on April 17, 2024, 09:00:48 pm
As a fluent Welsh speaker, I have always understood the word "trwydded" as "licence", not "permit" Permit is "caniatad". Regardless of the English displayed, I would always read the Welsh first as it's the first on the sign, and it would mean, to me, "disabled badge holders with a licence only".
Title: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
Post by: belt on April 17, 2024, 02:37:33 am
Hello all,

My father (disabled badge holder) parked in a disabled bay, displayed his blue badge with correct time... then came back about 20 minutes later to find a penalty charge on the windscreen.

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetkorner.com%2Fpcn1.jpg&hash=cb660240a977da19924643a1399fd584558c70a8)
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetkorner.com%2Fpcn2.jpg&hash=87640946641c08c5e73b795aa7aa9a08c83c90f9)

He rang the council and spoke to someone who apparently sympathised with his plight. He was promised a call back, but heard nothing since.

I asked him to go back a few days later and take a photo of the sign. My father interpreted the mention of "permit" as meaning the disabled badge itself.

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetkorner.com%2F1713119038476.JPEG&hash=6f70506d7b77078d8faf9839ceb58b0c16e69165)

I have never seen such wording. If it referred to a certain type of permit, I would expect it to specify further (e.g. "resident permit holders") or show the representation of the permit (e.g. "C9") in a black box. The disabled symbol below the "P" makes it look like a regular disabled parking bay, at least to me it does.

Location is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XwkvBGUEtWx5iUR56

Any help with this would be really appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.