Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: willdudeuk on April 16, 2024, 04:43:39 pm
-
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TYh4nIz7qWI7qzEI_p59Po_ntRGZeBWc/view).
-
The links have not been opened, I've sent you a couple of screenshots to illustrate this.
To date TFL has not escalated PCNs from £80 to £160 if you appeal during the discount period, so arguably you've got nothing to lose in pursuing this to the tribunal because even if you lose you'll still only have to pay £80 (it might be that you're the first one where they do escalate the charge because you've appealed, but you'd have to be exceptionally unlucky).
-
Got a reply....
And it was a notice of rejection. Which I shall attach here.
@cp8759 - did they click on the link in the body of the representation I sent, I am not sure how I can check?
(https://i.imgur.com/6DZWTUP.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XJiMZBG.png)
-
Morning @cp8759,
Still not heard anything back regarding the representation.
Is 15 days working days?
They can take 2 / 3 months to reply, 15 working days is literally nothing.
-
Morning @cp8759,
Still not heard anything back regarding the representation.
Is 15 days working days?
(https://i.imgur.com/B2canIe.png?1)
-
OK @cp8759 I shall submit it online as per your instructions and ensure I take a snapshot of the confirmation page. Fingers crossed. Thank you for all your help.
-
@willdudeuk I've emailed you the click counter link, your draft looks fine but it must be sent online via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and not by post. Keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
-
@cp8759
Please find 1st draft below (it will need some work but at least there is a framework we can do something with now):
TfL – Transport for London
Red Routes
PO Box 335
Darlington, DL1 9PU
Re: Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number: GX14225559, Vehicle Registration: AP08MLY]
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to appeal the penalty charge notice (PCN: GX14225559) issued to me on [10/04/2024 / Contravention Date and Time: 07 April 2024 at 11:32 for contravention Code 31 - entering and stopping in box junction. I believe there were mitigating circumstances that contributed to this violation.
On the day in question, I was travelling home for my late Father’s remembrance in light of his Birthday which was delayed due to availability of Family members. Due to this I was suffering from anxiety and had not slept well. When approaching the junction I had a lapse in concentration and found myself unable to avoid entering the YBJ.
I would like to emphasize that I always strive to adhere to traffic regulations, and this incident was an exception due to the unforeseen circumstances mentioned above. I have attached my Father’s death certificate to support my appeal. (Insert URL / link with click counter)
I kindly request that you review my case and waive the penalty charge. Your understanding and consideration in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your attention to this appeal. I look forward to your response.
Yours sincerely,
-
@willdudeuk please tag me when you post the draft and I'll try and look at it today.
-
Morning @cp8759, I've got a copy of the certificate now, so will get typing up a representation and post it up here for advice and help if that's ok. Would ideally like to get it submitted today 7 days before the due date of 7th May. Thank you.
-
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and get back to me so promptly @cp8759 it makes a lot more sense now.
I shall get a draft written up and obtain a copy of the death certificate as I don’t have it to hand.
Need to act on this quickly before the 7th May so I can still have the opportunity to pay the reduced fine of £80 if the representation doesn’t work.
Hopefully they don’t click on the evidence so I can take them to the tribunal under statutory grounds for failure to consider. Fingers crossed!
Thank you once again.
-
For a TFL penalty, just replace the word "council" with Transport for London, as that is the authority you have to deal with.
There is no right of appeal against a PCN, there is only a right to make representations to the enforcement authority (which in this case is Transport for London). You can make representations on whatever grounds you want, some grounds are statutory grounds of appeal (these are listed on the PCN itself), anything that isn't a statutory ground of appeal is known as mitigation.
Transport for London has a power to accept representations on whatever grounds it wants, whether they are statutory grounds of appeal or not.
If the representations are rejected you have the right to appeal the London Tribunals, but the tribunal can only allow an appeal based on the statutory grounds, the tribunal adjudicator cannot allow an appeal on non-statutory grounds no matter how compelling the reasons might be. But if Transport for London fails in its duty to consider the representations, that in itself gives you a statutory ground on the basis of which you can appeal to the tribunal.
I suggest you draft up something based on what you've told us re: your later father's birthday, don't worry about setting up a link with a click counter as I will do that for you.
Do you have the death certificate to hand?
-
Thanks @cp8759
I am not sure I have any reasonable mitigation I can offer.
There has been a family bereavement but it’s probably not recent enough (over a year ago).
Unless you can down the route I was having a particularly low day post the Birthday of the passed close family member (my Father). But the birthday is mid March.
Regarding the strategies you provide in your link I have a few questions.
Strategy 1
How would I make an appeal to the authority’s discretionary power not to enforce? Is that applicable here for TFL? The council for the area the contravention occurred would be City Of Westminster.
What do you mean that the tribunal cannot allow an appeal on this basis? Is that my right to appeal or TFL?
Strategy 2
How do I setup a page with a link for the image or video evidence that has a click counter?
Also what evidence what that be? Could it be anything or does it need to be meaningful and related to the mitigating circumstances?
If you could kindly help me with drafting a representation to TFL. I would be eternally greatful @cp8759
Thank you
-
@willdudeuk it looks like the PCN is on hold until 7 May, but you want to get representation in asap.
This might be one for the strategy of last resort (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/l-b-waltham-forest-50r-performing-a-prohibited-turn/msg7581/#msg7581), but it's reliant on you having some meaningful mitigation to put forwards.
As long as you make a representation while the discount is still on offer, the penalty won't increase. For whatever reason if your representation is rejected and you appeal to the tribunal while the discount is still on offer, TFL currently only asks for the discounted penalty even if the appeal is refused, so there's little reason not to take this all the way.
-
Ok thank you.
Any ideas please @Hippocrates @cp8759 ?
Thank you
-
You need to find out from TfL how long they have put the PCN on hold for, based on the date it was out on hold and what the revised deadline is for submitting reps or paying. The experts of TfL would seem to be Hippocrates, and the administrator, cp8759. So maybe PM one of them ? I'm not an expert in overturning TfL PCNs on technicalities.
-
@Incandescent so what are my next steps please?
I am not sure what to put in my challenge / representation to the TFL experts if that’s who you are referring to?
Unless you mean the members on this forum?
Also I am not sure on timings as it still says the PCN is on hold.
Not sure when I need to challenge by or pay if you can confirm? Thank you.
-
So looks like I will need pay this then? No wiggle room out? Unless there are anymore suggestions? Appreciate all the help and support so far. Thank you.
Not necessarily !
Whilst the contravention seems to be made out, wait a bit until the TfL experts have spoken, because TfL are failing in their management of the enforcement process. This, on its own, can get a PCN cancelled. However don't miss any deadline on the PCN.
-
So looks like I will need pay this then? No wiggle room out? Unless there are anymore suggestions? Appreciate all the help and support so far. Thank you.
-
The video is in two parts, so one must allow it to run. I got caught out by this last year. The latter half shows entry into the box. There are two cameras in use, the one zoomed-in, and the other with a high level view. The clock times link the frames.
-
The contravention is causing a vehicle to enter the box then having to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles
The video does not show the entry into the box nor the reason for the stop, ...
Perhaps I'm mistaken but the video does show both doesn't it? From 54 secs et seq...
-
Hi the car is owned by myself.
All the PCN details / paperwork are at the beginning of this thread if that’s what you need?
Regarding the video evidence that is all that TFL have provided to me. Do you believe it is insufficient @Pastmybest
-
We need to see all of the video not just part of it and all of the PCN excepting your personal details. Is the car leased or owned?
The case reference is for the case Tran scripted below the ref number and is one of many
-
Thank @Pastmybest appreciate you putting this together for me.
What is the number reference you have quoted? Is that a case number from another or similar contravention?
The initial video doesn’t show the entry however the latter videos do so I am not sure how convincing this will be. Unless I am missing something?
Still would like to challenge this and see if we can get the PCN cancelled.
-
The contravention is causing a vehicle to enter the box then having to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles
The video does not show the entry into the box nor the reason for the stop,
2160264616
Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 provides that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicle.
In this case the closed circuit television evidence produced by Transport for London does not show the Appellant’s vehicle as it enters the box junction.
Although the vehicle does stop within the box junction, I cannot determine the position when the vehicle actually entered the box, as this is completely outside the focus of the camera.
Considering all the evidence before me carefully I cannot find as a fact that, on this particular occasion, a contravention did occur.
Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.
-
Okay thank you for your response @Incandescent
I’m not sure how long the PCN gets suspended after the video has been given out and received.
Also I’m not sure what I should be putting in my challenge for the representation.
-
Well, I have to say the contravention itself seems to be made on from the video. You blithely entered the box with no hesitation at all, but the car in front occupied the only space, thus forcing you to stop.
However, don't rush to pay yet, bcause experts on here are very good at finding flaws in TfL's management of the enforcement process, so wait a bit, but don't miss the deadline for payment or submitting reps if nobody answers.
-
Video Evidence - GX14225559 (https://youtu.be/M_F8QsGoPS8)
-
I’ve received the DVD in the post. What is the best way to get it up on here so it can be viewed? @cp8759
-
Status update but still no DVD of the evidence yet, any ideas what this status means @cp8759 ?
It means your CCTV request has either been processed, or is in the pipeline to be sent out. Hopefully you'll get it in the next few days.
-
Status update but still no DVD of the evidence yet, any ideas what this status means @cp8759 ?
(https://i.imgur.com/4vFqayN.png)
-
If you have a look on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn it now says this under PCN status history:
(https://i.imgur.com/HGOFrD3.png)
-
So conveniently for them their system was "down" the first attempt of asking.
On second attempt I have just rung again / transferred to another agent and the footage has been issued
on DVD to me under a reference number.
They were very keen to know why I wanted the footage and wanted to try and explain the footage over the
phone to me but I refused.
Let's see what happens.
Shall set a reminder in 10 days time if hasn't been received.
Does this mean the PCN goes on hold or not? @cp8759
-
@willdudeuk put a reminder in your calendar to chase up the video in 10 days if you've not received it by then, and also update this thread with the state of play at the same time.
If you receive the video in the meantime, post it on here please.
-
Thank you @cp8759 I shall call them up today and request the DVD.
In the meantime what else can I do?
What should I be putting in my representation?
-
@willdudeuk call TFL on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait. If you haven't got the DVD in the post after 10 days, call up and chase and also let us know. The PCN might be put on hold, but you should still submit representations before the end of the 28 day representations period even if the video isn't received in time.
-
Is there grounds for appeal or challenging this due to the fact there is no evidence or video showing the entry into the YBJ?
Could I also use the TWOC and Conflation argument to see their response?
Thank you.
-
Hi, looking for some help to challenge the following PCN I have received from TFL for Stopping in a Box Junction.
Do I have a case to challenge or appeal this please?
I was hoping there would be a video available to watch but I can't see this online.
Is this something I need to request?
Any help to get this cancelled would be appreciated.
Thank you.
PCN & EVIDENCE IMAGES
(https://i.imgur.com/jqB3gxT.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/70VjBxJ.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/f7dOtJo.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8nomtnp.jpeg)
GOOGLE STEET VIEW LOCATION
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZpgQ3QFRvqu8kQso6 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZpgQ3QFRvqu8kQso6)