Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cgsrimi on April 16, 2024, 09:56:30 am

Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on June 10, 2024, 02:21:12 am
Quote from: cgsrimi on June 07, 2024, 05:01:06 pm
I appreciate you wanting to take this further, and normally I'd be keen to see this exposed, but on this occasion the right thing has been done, for me and my neighbours, and this shouldn't be discouraged by further action.

Very grateful for all the help offered.
@cgsrimi I don't want to take any action against Hackney, I want to send it to a different authority to show them an example of how a fair and responsible authority should behave.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on June 07, 2024, 05:01:06 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 09:53:53 pm
@cgsrimi you could take that to the local press, that is pretty much unprecedented.

Could you share a screenshot of the actual letter? I'd like to send it to someone.

I appreciate you wanting to take this further, and normally I'd be keen to see this exposed, but on this occasion the right thing has been done, for me and my neighbours, and this shouldn't be discouraged by further action.

Very grateful for all the help offered.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on May 29, 2024, 11:22:01 pm
Just got this back:

(https://i.imgur.com/CEOdc9s.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/zDdLKQp.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/wMiQFgL.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/BseZwQt.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/lZ1ZIKj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sLx6JsE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/NhZX0hQ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/0IYYmhj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/GCY70W0.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/5OtJ9xo.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZoglaH7.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/EzesSZs.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/TFxJA4d.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/O63pjso.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hO73FgA.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2cHe6Xz.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/8v8Uave.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/qA2qscC.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hPnD4HF.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MJkFMmP.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/FZoMSra.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/lyoxBxq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ov1xSrc.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/E4LsOdm.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/7U4wiby.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dt1JGwO.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/qxLltm1.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Hp19ixv.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ripWxVT.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/U5wl0Oh.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/VWR97Rt.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2lOOoUE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/9rNaZuK.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/1AgMw2G.png)
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 09:53:53 pm
@cgsrimi you could take that to the local press, that is pretty much unprecedented.

Could you share a screenshot of the actual letter? I'd like to send it to someone.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: Hippocrates on May 26, 2024, 03:02:34 pm
Guinness Book of Records?
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on May 26, 2024, 01:13:31 pm
Posting Hackney's most recent reply which I am very content with.

"Thank you for your email dated 15 May 2024.

You say that no explanation was given as to why your vehicle was issued a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). I can confirm that this was an error and it should not have been issued.

You have asked the following questions. My response is detailed below each.

 

1.     Once you have been in contact with the Disputes Team re: the use of this particular template, please update on the outcome.



I have contacted the disputes team regarding the template used in this case. While it is considered fit for purpose in some cases, extra training and guidance will be issued regarding the appropriate use of templates and to take extra care with ensuring they are appropriate on a case by case basis.

I will also propose to my manager that I create a short case study to demonstrate the impact that the inappropriate use of a template can cause.



2.     Once you have spoken with the Enforcement Team re: scrutiny of the logs for similar mistakes, please confirm what ‘appropriate action’ has or will be taken – It is not clear from your email what is felt to be ‘appropriate’.

 

Our records show that 14 PCN’s were issued at the location between 11 April 2024 and 13 April 2024. I have compared this to the list of all vehicles that were parked at the time the suspension was put in place.

11 of the 14 PCN’s were issued to vehicles that were noted as being present when the suspension was put in place. Of those 11, five have been appealed and cancelled (including yours).

Four PCN’s have been paid without dispute and two have not been paid.

Hackney Council aims to be fair and consistent and as such, I have cancelled the two unpaid PCN’s and arranged for refunds to be issued on the other four.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention and I trust that my response adequately addresses the points you have raised."
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on May 15, 2024, 07:04:34 pm
To be honest that's an exceptionally good outcome for something like this, 9 times out of 10 I'd expect them to say that there is no obligation for the council to go back and review wrongly issued PCNs so the fact that that is being contemplated is remarkable.

I would submit an FOI in a few weeks to see what they've done.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on May 09, 2024, 10:49:13 am
Below, the reply received from LB Hackney. I note that:

1. There's a lot of unnecessary waffle.
2. There's no explicit confirmation that their PCN records have been corrected.
3. The "I am sorry that you felt.." doesn't acknowledge the council's shortcomings, just blames my feelings.
4. Regarding other wrongly issued PCNs that day, I'm not satisfied that anything will happen here.
5. The excuse for not offering compensation is a weak one. I pay £324 pa for a permit and in a commercial situation compensation or a refund would be expected.

I am the sort of bloody minded person to push this further but don't think it will end up going anywhere so, other than points 2 (I'll request this is explicitly confirmed) and point 4 (I'm minded to ask for clarification on what "appropriate action" means and submit an FOI in a few weeks time), I'm prepared to let this go - pending any further thoughts from the kind people here.


"Thank you for your email regarding Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) QZ17529394.

You have told me that you received a letter dated 23 April 2024, which confirmed the cancellation of the PCN. However, you felt the letter was patronising, contradictory and sought to chastise you, rather than apologise for the error.

As a resolution to this issue, you would like an acknowledgement of the council's error and for the relevant records to show that it was an error rather than a gesture of goodwill.

You would like the council to review its training and communication related to PCN cancellations. You would also like an apology and compensation for the wording of the letter and the time, effort, stress and worry this matter has caused.
 

Background

You have told me that you received a PCN on Lordship Park at 09:09 on 12 April 2024, after subsequently learning that signs were erected at around 14:30 on 11 April 2024. You have told me that your vehicle was noted as being parked when the signs were erected.



You have referred to the Council’s website, which states that we aim to provide 3 days notice.



I have spoken with the Suspension Team to try and understand what happened in this case.

The Suspensions Team have told me that they received an email at 10:27 on 11 April 2024 from Thames Water to say that they had an emergency call out to rectify a dangerous Thames Water chamber on Lordship Park. They needed a number of bays to be suspended to accommodate the works and the application had to be put through as an emergency. Parking Suspensions assisted in approving their request and putting up the suspension signs.



We do try to put all suspension signs up at least three days in advance of a suspension starting and even earlier where possible. Unfortunately, this is not always possible as we can sometimes receive short notice requests where emergency works are needed, which is what happened in this case.

Due to the emergency, we had to approve the suspension request rather than asking the company to choose alternative dates. The consequences of not approving the suspension could have had a detrimental effect on those living/working in the surrounding areas.

My Review

We had noted that your vehicle was parked at the point the signs were erected and I agree that we shouldn’t have issued the PCN given that you are not at fault.

I have reviewed the letter we sent you on 23 April 2024 and this to me feels like the sender has used a generic template. While parts of the letter might be appropriate for responding to a driver who is at fault, it is not appropriate for somebody who isn’t. As such, I will be contacting the Disputes Team and providing some guidance on when a template is and isn't appropriate to use.

The team does help to resolve a lot of disputes for customers but as with anything, mistakes and oversights can occur. I am sorry that you felt like the letter was patronising and didn’t just simply apologise for the error. I can understand how this can cause frustration.

You have asked if parking logs will be scrutinised to find similar mistakes and will all such fines be cancelled and repaid. I will speak to the enforcement team and identify any other vehicles that may have been issued with a PCN under the same circumstances and take the appropriate action.

In regards to your request for compensation, the Council takes the quality of service we provide to our customers seriously and where the level of service is not to a standard we would expect, we seek to remedy the situation and provide the relevant corrective actions. However, it is not our policy to make compensation payments for the time and trouble the issue has caused. We are accountable for public funds and must recover all operating costs through fees, therefore, it is essential that any outgoings are auditable and justifiable.

I trust this response addresses the concerns you have raised and once again, please accept my apologies for the service we have provided in this instance."
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on April 29, 2024, 03:34:55 pm
Thank you all for the welcome advice. I have complained to the complaints department and copied members as suggested. I'll post an update once a response is provided.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: John U.K. on April 29, 2024, 12:22:15 pm
To whom are you proposing to send the letter of complaint?
Hackney has a complaints procedure  - https://hackney.gov.uk/complaints

I would add something about correcting the record as per CP's Reply#4

I would also copy the letter to the Councillors for the ward in which the suspended bay was situated - see https://hackney.gov.uk/find-your-councillor
and to the cabinet  member for parking/roads/transport  - I eventually found on the council site that it is
Councillor Mete Coban
Cabinet Member for Environment and Transport - https://hackney.gov.uk/cabinet
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on April 29, 2024, 10:52:53 am
Draft complaint for comment. Thanks in advance:

"A letter, dated 23/04/2024, was sent to me confirming the cancellation of a wrongly issued PCN. The letter is patronising, self-contradictory and seeks to chasten me rather than admit to a clear error by the council.

I would like:

-   To have it acknowledged that on this occasion the council was in error and that the PCN should not have been issued.
-   Receive an apology for wrongly issuing the PCN, the stress and annoyance caused by this avoidable error, and for the patronising content of the letter.
-   The council to review its communication related to PCN cancellations.
-   To receive compensation reflecting the time and effort required to appeal the PCN and to submit this complaint; the distress and worry this matter has caused; the neglectful service provided in this instance – despite paying £324pa to be permitted to park.

The facts are that when my vehicle was parked there were no signs indicating a suspension of parking. Signs were erected at around 14:30 on 11 April and the vehicle received the PCN at around 09:00 on 12 April. The letter however states:

“There were yellow warning signs saying 'Parking Suspension.

It is the driver's responsibility to always check the relevant roadside sign(s) for any bay, in which they intend to park, to ensure that their parking bay is not suspended and that they have parked in accordance with the restrictions in force.”

The letter further goes on to say:

“Although your Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued, as a gesture of goodwill we have cancelled it on this occasion.”

It is fallacious to claim that the PCN was issued correctly when my vehicle was parked prior to signage being erected, as acknowledged, and it is wholly unreasonable to then issue a PCN less than 19 hours after the signs went up. The council’s own published aim is for signs to be in place at least 3 days prior to suspensions coming into effect – clearly this was not the case here.

The ‘gesture of goodwill’ is not relevant as the PCN was very obviously issued in error and I find this gesture to be patronising and the letter’s attempt to shift blame to be gaslighting.

The letter concludes with:

“If you get another Penalty Charge Notice in similar circumstances, we may not be able to cancel it.”

I consider this to be threatening language and I am appalled by its use – And no, if a PCN is issued again in similar circumstances it will be appealed and overturned because the council has grossly abused its powers.

The person who drafted this letter should receive further training to avoid further snide abuse of residents in such circumstances. If the letter is a standard template then it should be replaced with something that does not seek chide recipients like they’re toddlers.

Mistakes inevitably do happen and can be acknowledged and apologised for. There is no need for the type of letter I received and they only make the council look petulant and stupid – further antagonising the residents the council is there to serve.

I look forward to your response."
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on April 27, 2024, 06:19:22 pm
I would definitely make a complaint about that, as they'll count it as a discretionary cancellation rather than a wrongly issued PCN. Most councils will only allow one discretionary cancellation ever 2 / 3 years, so you 100% want them to amend their records to show the PCN was wrongly issued.

If you want to post a draft complaint on here we can check it over for you.

Councils tend to be very patronising in acceptance letters because they assume nobody will bother taking it up once the PCN is cancelled, hence it is always worth complaining.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: Incandescent on April 23, 2024, 09:58:09 am
"A gesture of goodwill", what an arrogant mob they are. No doubt they will end up somewhere very warm when the years have passed.
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on April 23, 2024, 09:34:08 am
Thank you for your reply and advice. I have appealed and the PCN has been cancelled.


The accompanying letter (contents pasted below) was though incredibly patronising, verging on gas lighting and I am minded to take things further with at least a complaint requesting an acknowledgement that the PCN was not properly issued, as they claim, and that the PCN should be cancelled because it was unlawful, not out of 'goodwill'.


Any thoughts welcomed.


"Thank you for writing to us.


You were issued a Penalty Charge Notice for parking in a bay that had been suspended. There were yellow warning signs saying 'Parking Suspension. No waiting, No loading'. Bays are generally suspended to allow for roadworks or large delivery vehicles.


It is the driver's responsibility to always check the relevant roadside sign(s) for any bay, in which they intend to park, to ensure that their parking bay is not suspended and that they have parked in accordance with the restrictions in force.


We have noted your comment. Please note, before suspending the parking, we put up the warning sign. When the sign went up on 11/04/2024, our engineers recorded the registration numbers of the parked vehicles. Your vehicle is on that list, so I am satisfied that you parked before the warning sign was erected.


You must not use a suspended bay to park, wait, load or unload while the suspension is in force, even if it appears that there is no work taking place. Any vehicle in a suspended parking space can delay works needed to be carried out by the person/company who has requested the suspension.


Although your Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued, as a gesture of goodwill we have cancelled it on this occasion. If you get another Penalty Charge Notice in similar circumstances, we may not be able to cancel it."
Title: Re: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 02:49:09 pm
@cgsrimi your google street view link doesn't work, please see the guidance at the bottom of this post (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on how to share google street view links.

The wording at this stage can be very simple and to the point:

Dear London Borough of Hackney,

The alleged contravention did not occur because at the time of parking, no suspension signs were present. I parked my vehicle at 2 pm and I have since been informed by your colleagues in the suspensions team that the signs were only erected at 2:30 pm, so there was no adequate notice of the suspension. Considering these are residents' permit bays, it is hard to conceive of circumstances where a notice period of less than 24 hours could be adequate.

I look forward to your prompt cancellation of this wrongly issued penalty charge notice.

Send this online and get a screenshot of the confirmation page, in the meantime I'll get the proper suspension logs.
Title: Hackney, code 21 parking in suspended bay, Lordship Park N16
Post by: cgsrimi on April 16, 2024, 09:56:30 am
I have a resident permit to park in the street (zone g) and last parked up at 14:00 on 11 April.

On the late morning of the next day (Friday 12 April) I saw that my vehicle and many others had received a PCN for parking in a bay that had been suspended. At that point it looked like the council had thrown up tonnes of notices on lampposts and EV charging poles – honestly it looked like some traffic warden street party was happening.

I had no memory of seeing any such signage when I parked – I’m generally observant but we can all be in our own little worlds. I took a chance and emailed parkingsuspensions@hackney.gov.uk asking when the signage was put up. I didn’t expect a reply but did and was told they were put up at 14:30 on 11 April.

Therefore I would not have seen them then when I arrived home on that day and I think it grossly unreasonable to have been ticketed less than 16 hours after the signs were erected.

To make things more galling, the suspension remained in place the whole weekend, no work was done and the signs came down on Monday.

I will of course appeal and would appreciate advice on the grounds I should use and wording of such an appeal.

The vehicle was parked here at the time the ticket was issued - https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2%B03...#33;4d-0.086454

Images of PCN and the signage - https://photos.app.goo.gl/75VAF33BpBr4QPEY6 which I hope are accessible.

Images captured by the Council parking warden - https://photos.app.goo.gl/Za7NtvCx4nT2ZBfa9