Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: 911bill on April 12, 2024, 01:08:13 pm

Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: 911bill on April 23, 2024, 09:08:24 am
Well that was easy..

Thank you for writing to us.

You were issued a penalty because your full registration number was not entered
on your pay and display ticket.

We have made the decision to withdraw the penalty on this occasion. However,
the onus is on the driver to ensure they enter the correct information before
printing the ticket and leaving the vehicle unattended. Any future penalties for this
reason may not be withdrawn.

Appreciate your help here, expected a fight back!

Thank you.
Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: 911bill on April 22, 2024, 11:32:20 am
Thank you!

Good to know in regards to the picture and what is missing.

Appeal submitted via the website, screenshot of submission confirmation saved. I also have an email acknowledgment, so now we wait.

Thanks for your help here.
Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 11:45:25 pm
So this is one of the stupidest PCNs I have seen in a while: out of the 23 photos on the council website there are no photos of any signs at all, so there is no evidence of a contravention. Of course you must not alert the council to this flaw in their evidence as you don't want to give them time to go back and get some photos, this should only be brought up on the day of any tribunal hearing.

In order to get the ball rolling I'd start by making a very basic representation:

Dear London Borough of Sutton,

I challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur, this is because I obtained a ticket from the pay and display machine, this ticket was visible on my dashboard and at the material time it had not expired.

Yours faithfully,


Of course the council will reject, but let them spell out their reasons and dig themselves into a hole. Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: 911bill on April 19, 2024, 10:59:15 am
Ok thanks for that. Wow, that would be case closed, great find. Appreciate your efforts there, amazing.

The reg = C2 CFB
PCN = SU74186722

I haven't been back but a friend said that the only line on the sign which would be related is "displaying a ticket with the incorrect registration to that of the vehicle parked"..

Surely it must be seen that the reg is close enough and clearly the first part is missing.  ::)

Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: cp8759 on April 18, 2024, 05:49:07 pm
Quote from: 911bill on April 15, 2024, 05:20:53 pm
Not sure if it is protocol to list all details here but just a bit worried about someone maliciously cocking up the process for me.
@911bill that can't really happen for various reasons and indeed has never happened in the many years that we've been helping people. I suppose the one thing anyone could do is go onto the council website and pay the penalty for you, which would preclude any appeal, but somehow I doubt anyone will do that. However if you're that worried please PM me the details instead.

In the meantime I've got hold of The Sutton (Off-Street Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2001 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t4ZyLjGMGQm9mNQMubw_3SeI_EMw6atM/view) and The Sutton (Off-Street Parking Places) (No. 1) (Amendment No. 5) Order 2010 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EkeYmYoecJeCF9FPc8USjQbDAUJClXHC/view).

From a quick skim I can't see any requirement to insert the vehicle registration into the ticket machine, nor is there any requirement for the vehicle registration to be printed on the ticket.
Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: 911bill on April 15, 2024, 05:20:53 pm
Hello,

Here is the back of the charge notice.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53655956231_dba292f255_c.jpg)

I'm a bit reluctant to put the reg and PCN number up as this would allow anyone to get into the ticket process to falsely appeal it or other.

The evidence is literally a 360 degree range of pictures of the vehicle within a parent child bay, in addition to the 2 pictures posted up above.

Not sure if it is protocol to list all details here but just a bit worried about someone maliciously cocking up the process for me.

Thanks!
 
Title: Re: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: cp8759 on April 14, 2024, 11:52:53 pm
@911bill please give us the PCN number and the number plate, we need to look at the council evidence because for all we know, there might be no case to answer. In the meantime I'll get the parking places order.
Title: Sutton Council - not displaying valid P&D ticket (incorrect reg)
Post by: 911bill on April 12, 2024, 01:08:13 pm
Hello,

Posting here as I received a PM to do so.

Good Evening all,

Driver has picked up a PCN in a pay and display carpark.

A ticket was obtained from the machine, which wasn't overly responsive to the press of buttons apparently, hence the first 2 characters not showing, but a ticket was obtained. The car park is free for the first 2 hours, and payment is required for any time over 2 hours. You must obtain a ticket, regardless.

The ticket was left on the dashboard, as can be seen in the picture below, clearly visible.

The car registration on the ticket, is missing the first 2 characters. Driver had let our 4 year old do the machine, which he did wrong and then driver did it, who clearly got it wrong as well and mentioned the buttons weren't great. Either way, an oversight but clearly displayed on the dashboard and the characters of the registration on ticket match the last 3 character of the registration displayed on the vehicle.

Driver went in to the associated supermarket to complain about it but was told, this happens all the time, they can't do anything but if you appeal, it should get cancelled.

So, here I am, just wanting to get advice on doing this properly.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53648074209_0464f7d4db_z.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53648194490_9f246fb939_z.jpg)

I have the option to appeal, which I intend on doing but before I appeal with the above story, I am obviously here to seek the correct way of doing this or if the mistake has deservedly earned the PCN with no way of appeal.

Various pictures taken of the car and ticket, which can be seen, the fault here is clearly the first 2 characters being missing from the ticket.

They have shown a test ticket, which is all well and good but this would not account for hard to press buttons but I won't argue the toss there, I wasn't there to judge or know but I know the driver wouldn't simply have entered the last 3 characters alone. I assume they first 2 characters were not pressed hard enough and while juggling 2 children, a second thought wasn't given to what was outputted onto the ticket.

Evidence below.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53648214255_3628baf35f_z.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53648094304_a6a1884592_z.jpg)


I hope I have provided all required information. (A picture of the rear of the PCN is coming)

Many thanks

Drivers partner.