Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Little Nell on April 10, 2024, 12:53:07 pm
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Outcome 1 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yzN89tedkVBH--GIbZxsLiqH6YOtZB9d/view), outcome 2 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oLX_-TGBIAQpeMOw3h3j6R9rMw0Kc9D0/view).
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In the guidance that cp8759 sent to me I was advised to ask for an email copy of the reps letter but LT said there wasn’t one.
Maybe you spoke to someone new? I've never had anyone say this to me, and just because I do loads of appeals shouldn't mean I get any sort of special treatment. It very much sounds like whoever you spoke to doesn't know what they're talking about, the "show us your reps" letter gets issued automatically in all such cases.
That being said, I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
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@Enceladus
Yes, a case number for the 2nd PCN only at the moment. LT hasn’t received anything from Ulez about the 1st PCN.
In the guidance that cp8759 sent to me I was advised to ask for an email copy of the reps letter but LT said there wasn’t one.
Thank you for your advice, I think I would rather attend in person albeit that it will mean travelling to London. I’ll phone on Monday and inform them of this.
I have kept copies of absolutely everything.
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I have phoned LTs and have been given a case reference number for the second PCN - 9240286610.
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I have asked that all correspondence is sent to me via email (my chosen method of communication). There is no "letter of reps" and they said they didn't email evidence, that I would need to contact TfL / ULEZ for this which I will do.
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Do you mean that you have a case number for the 2nd PCN only?
And
What do do mean by "There is no letter of reps"?
Please confirm that you have copies of the representations that you submitted to TFL on 23rd and 29th Nov 2023? You'll need to upload those to the LT portal in due course. The case will be decided on the balance of probability. In this case did you submit representations within the time limit. So you'll have to convince the Adjudicator that you did post them (in the post box near where you work). This is best done verbally.
If you ask for a telephone hearing then you can select a better firm date and time if you wish. The 25th July for a hearing on the papers is just the date that the case comes into the list where there is no scheduled hearing.
And make the point to the Adjudicator that you have been deprived of your opportunity to pay and close out the cases at the discount rate, due to TFLs failure to respond to your representations. The NoRs would have included an offer for the discount had they sent these.
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I received a letter from ULEZ (I tried to attach it but received a message stating that the upload folder was full)
Have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
for guidance on posting images.
A postal hearing date has been set of 25th July but LT stated that it may not be held on this date and could be a date afterwards.
We never recommend a postal decision. as these often end in tears. Contact LT and get it changed to in person or by telephone. You (or your representative) will then have the opportunity to answer questions from, and clarify points with, the Adjudicator.
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@Enceladus @cp8759 @H C Andersen
Yesterday I received a letter from ULEZ (I tried to attach it but received a message stating that the upload folder was full) to state that they will be proceeding with the enforcement and that the evidence had been sent to LT's. This is in respect of the 2nd PCN only (ending 3685). I haven't heard anything yet about the 1st PCN (ending 8544).
Please note that this letter was dated 19th June - I received it yesterday, 27th June, together with all the evidence in paper form. I don't know why it took so long to reach me.
I have checked the TfL portal and both PCNs are showing the same information: 17th June On Hold, SD receipt.
I have phoned LTs and have been given a case reference number for the second PCN - 9240286610.
I have asked that all correspondence is sent to me via email (my chosen method of communication). There is no "letter of reps" and they said they didn't email evidence, that I would need to contact TfL / ULEZ for this which I will do.
A postal hearing date has been set of 25th July but LT stated that it may not be held on this date and could be a date afterwards. I need to submit any further evidence before this date. I have been sent a letter confirming all this, sent yesterday by LT but could take up to 4 days to receive it.
What now?
Many thanks for all your help.
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You are likely to get letters from TFL informing you that they are referring your cases to the Adjudicator at the London Tribunals. You will likely also hear from the Adjudicator requesting copies of the representations for each PCN and evidence of how and when they were submitted. The Adjudicator will likely also direct that your cases be heard as an appeal.
@Enceladus the tribunal has a stupid automated process that requests copies of the representations, even if the representations and the notice of rejection are in the evidence pack supplied by the authority. If that correspondence is not responded to, a direction to pay is issued automatically.
There is a material risk that if the letter from the tribunal is lost or delayed there might be a miscarriage of justice, hence it's important to follow this guidance I have written in such cases: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/
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@Enceladus
Many thanks. I have been away for the weekend and was going to check tomorrow, and also phone LTs to see if TfL has sent my case to them, therefore following the advice previously given by @cp8759
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Both PCNs are sitting at £180 so the charge certificates have been cancelled, as per the TEC's revoking orders.
You are likely to get letters from TFL informing you that they are referring your cases to the Adjudicator at the London Tribunals. You will likely also hear from the Adjudicator requesting copies of the representations for each PCN and evidence of how and when they were submitted. The Adjudicator will likely also direct that your cases be heard as an appeal.
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@cp8759
Today I received the revoking order for the 2nd PCN. I’ll check in weekly with LTs and post when I know more.
Thanks again
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@cp8759
Thank you, noted and will proceed as advised
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@Little Nell if you had an acknowledgment email from TEC in respect of both statutory declarations and the TFL website shows the statutory declarations have been processed, I wouldn't bother contacting TFL or TEC any further.
Just call London Tribunals again at least once every 10 days until the cases are referred to the adjudicator.
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@cp8759
Just to recap:-
I sent the SD's to the TEC within 1 minute of each other (as advised, I sent a separate email to the TEC for each of the two PCNs). Last Friday, 7th, I received by post the order revoking the OfR and cancelling the charge certificate for the first PCN only. I haven't yet received anything from the TEC in respect of the SD I submitted for the second PCN although the status with TfL today is the same for both PCNs dated 6th June - ON HOLD SD RECEIPT - so I know the TEC is processing the SD for the second PCN.
I phoned the London Tribunals yesterday but TfL have not yet forwarded either of the PCNs to the adjudicator.
How long should I leave it before I contact the TEC to advise them I haven't received anything in relation to the second PCN (apart from the original email from them confirming receipt)?
Or should I instead contact TfL and ask what is happening their end?
I don't want to Pi** anyone off by mithering unnecessarily but I'm conscious that waiting before has not turned out well for me and I don't wish to repeat previous mistakes.
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Once the TfL entry changes I will follow all the steps 1-6 then seek further guidance.
@Little Nell the tnry on the TfL website won't change, you need to follow those steps now.
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@cp8759
Many thanks for this information.
On Friday, I received a letter through the post from the TEC stating that my SD has been accepted. I can't recall the exact terminology used and it is at home with the rest of the file containing the correspondence. I only received a letter for one of the PCNs but assume the other is on it's way.
I have checked the status of the PCNs this morning and this has not changed - "On Hold, SD receipt" and the amounts remain at £280.
I will continue to check the PCN status every day, and will await the TEC letter for the remaining PCN.
Once the TfL entry changes I will follow all the steps 1-6 then seek further guidance.
Best wishes
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@Little Nell there is a further guide to explain the next steps here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/
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@Enceladus @H C Anderson
Apolgies HC, as I had been posting between myself and Enceladus, I automatically thought the latest response was from them.
I have been checking the PCNs daily and this morning the status of both has changed to:-
"On hold SUS40 - Statutory Declaration Receipt"
I haven't received this information from the TEC but it is obviously coming. I'll post again when it arrives.
Many thanks again for your help (both)
Best wishes
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@Enceladus
Thank you, that is very clear.
Yes - the grounds on which I submitted the SD's were because I did make the appeals in time but did not receive a rejection letter (because TfL claimed to have received neither of my original appeal letters last November).
I will continue to check the status of the PCNs daily.
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If matters progress how we expect them to i.e. that the SDs will be accepted by the TEC, will TfL then reissue the PCNs so that I have the chance to appeal that I was denied when I sent in the original appeals in November?
IMO no.
You have submitted SDs on which grounds? Presumably in each case that you made reps within the period specified but did not receive a notice of rejection, yes?
Here's a high-level description of the enforcement process: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/understanding-enforcement-process#sd
When you drill down into detail, this applies:
(7) Where a declaration has been served under paragraph (2)(b) or (c)[this is you] the charging authority shall refer the case to the adjudicator who may give such directions as he considers appropriate.
So, what does this mean procedurally:
1. You will not receive fresh PCNs;
2. You will not be able to make new or amended representations(at this stage);
3. The authority will submit the matters to the tribunal and the adjudicator will issue directions as they see fit.
What does 3 mean in practice?
That the adjudicator is likely to ask you to prove that your SD in each case was valid i.e. that you did submit reps 'in time'. They will consider your evidence and the authority's claim(that reps were not received in time) and decide on the balance of probabilities which situation is correct.
If they accept your version, they will direct that the PCNs are registered as appeals.
If they do not, then as I understand it you're on the hook for the full penalty in each case.
In short: you submitting SDs does NOT obligate the adjudicator to register the cases as appeals, it simply stops the authority from continuing enforcement at present. As posted by others, TEC are obligated to cancel the OfRs and CCs however, the adjudicator is empowered to act independently.
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@Enceladus
Thank you, yes I will check every day.
If matters progress how we expect them to i.e. that the SDs will be accepted by the TEC, will TfL then reissue the PCNs so that I have the chance to appeal that I was denied when I sent in the original appeals in November? Apologies, I am unsure of the process once the SDs are accepted by TEC. I haven't yet heard back from the TEC, apart from the acknowledgements when I submitted the SDs by email, but as I sent the SDs just before the bank holiday I have allowed a bit more time than usual for their response.
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Please keep an eye on the penalty outstanding on the TFL website. Both your PCNs are currently sitting at £280. When your Statutory Declarations are actioned by the Traffic Enforcement Centre the outstanding amount should revert to £180.
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@cp8759
Thank you very much, that makes things a lot clearer and has put my mind at rest for the time being.
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@Little Nell nothing happens that quickly, the first thing the bailiffs would do is send you a letter (at a cost of a further £75) demanding full payment. That would not happen for a few weeks because the council and the bailiffs will want to be sure they don't get caught out by an "in-time" statutory declaration.
We already know the outcome of your TEC application because: as long as you've filled in the forms correctly, TEC is legally bound to accept them, so we know the order for recovery and the charge certificate will be cancelled.
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@cp8759 @Enceladus @Incandescent
Good morning, further advice required please as the 21-day period from the date on the OfRs is up today. I live in a gated mews and will need to warn my neighbours (there are only 3 properties and I know my neighbours fairly well).
Am I to expect a visit from the bailiffs? It could be this week or next before I hear the outcome of the SD submissions to TEC.
Many thanks
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On Monday, it will be 21 days from the issue of the OfR. Whilst I have received an acknowledgement from TEC that I have submitted the SDs I have heard nothing further and may not do so for up to 2 weeks. I have never had the threat of bailiffs coming to my home. Should I expect them to turn up from Monday? I live in a gated mews - one neighbour is away but I will need to warn the other neighbour not to provide access.
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@cp8759
Many thanks, I understand and will await the outcome
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Should I perhaps, as belt and braces, send the signed SD's in the post by "signed for" mail? I could enclose a letter to confirm that I had already submitted the SDs via email so that there is no chance of the SDs being considered twice?
Absolutely not, anything you send by post to any organization nowadays just gets scanned and shredded. Your email will be considered first (because it was received first) and the postal copy would do nothing other than make the backlog worse for everyone whose application is sitting in the queue behind yours.
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@Enceladus
Thank you
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I don't see a need to follow up by post. So long as you scanned the completed docs and attached them to the emails then it will be fine. You have the acknowledgement receipts. You should get the outcomes in 10-14 days
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@cp8759 @Incandescent @Enceladus
I went to Yeovil Court yesterday where the SDs were signed by me and the officer. They have been scanned today and emailed to tec@justice.gov.uk. I sent a separate email for each PCN / SD and I have received two acknowledgements from TEC.
The acknowledgement from TEC seems to suggest that they have a backlog. Should I perhaps, as belt and braces, send the signed SD's in the post by "signed for" mail? I could enclose a letter to confirm that I had already submitted the SDs via email so that there is no chance of the SDs being considered twice?
Your advice would be appreciated.
Many thanks
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Understood, much appreciated.
Thank you
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Just to be clear, once the SD is signed, I just email them separately to Tec? This is not the stage where I submit evidence to try and demonstrate that I did submit the original appeals on time?
That's correct, you don't need to demonstrate anything at this stage. That will come later on when the case is referred to the tribunal. All you need to do is email the completed forms to the TEC mailbox.
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@cp8759 @Incandescent @Enceladus I tried to get a local legal firm (the same firm that did the conveyancing on my house purchase a couple of years ago) to witness my SD but you would have thought I’d asked them for a kidney hence the journey to Yeovil.
Just to be clear, once the SD is signed, I just email them separately to Tec? This is not the stage where I submit evidence to try and demonstrate that I did submit the original appeals on time?
Thanks again for all your help.
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Yes the fee recently increased to £10. Don't know when exactly, it doesn't seem to have been well publicised.
Just to be clear. You are not making statutory declarations at Yeovil County Court. You are having your SD applications witnessed so that you can submit them to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court. You can also have them witnessed by a solicitor. They'll charge £5-£10 for each. Some bigger employers have a tame in-house solicitor, they might do it for free for employees.
Once the completed forms are witnessed then you can email them to the TEC, the email address is on the form. Safer than Royal Mail. Scan to PDF or JPEG and attach to the email. I suggest two emails, one for each form. Put something like Statutory Declaration submission attached and the PCN reference number in the subject line. You should get an automatic acknowledgement email from the TEC for each submission.
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You could, of course, use a local solicitor, and save the petrol/time. There would be a small charge for this.
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Yes the forms looks fine, and you are correct that you must not sign the forms yet. The court officer needs to watch you sign the forms in from of him.
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@cp8759 Please find the completed PE3 forms attached.
As I understand it, I don't actually sign these until I am in front of an officer of the court on the day? Also, I will have my driving licence with me for ID purposes but do I need to take anything else?
I want to make sure I get everything right and it is a good hour's round trip to Yeovil and back for which I need to take time off work.
Thanks again
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Little Nell for a statutory declaration made in-time, you don't need to add any wording at all, you just tick the box and that's that.
If you want to be 100% sure the form is correct you can upload a redacted version on here and we'll check it for you.
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@Incandescent @Enceladus @cp8759
Apologies for tagging all of you but I want to go to Yeovil court next Tuesday which is still well within the 21 days to submit a SD, given that the OfRs were dated 13th May (see details in my post just before this one).
I have the PE3 forms ready (one for each PCN). I know that I have to tick the 2nd box (I made reps and didn't receive a rejection notice) but I just wanted to check the reasons and the wording you suggest I use?
Just to let you know also that the costs are now £280 for each PCN - the registration fee must now be £10, an increase from £9.
Best wishes and thank you
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Having returned from a week away I have checked the status of the PCNs and they have progressed as follows:-
13/5 Debt Registration Accepted
13/5 Notice of Debt Registration Issued
I understand now that I have to make a statutory declaration at my local County Court (Yeovil).
Do you have any advice as to the wording I should include in the SD? I won't do anything until I have heard back from the forum.
Many thanks
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It is a bit confusing.
Bath is CAZ type C, Bristol is type D.
The type determines which class of vehicles don't pay. The difference between C and D is private cars.
You will likely be ok in Bradford, Sheffield and Tyneside too.
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Funny you should mention the CAZ scheme. In January (so a couple of months after I had received the original PCNs) I drove to Bath. On the outskirts I noticed a sign for the Clean Air Zone and so immediately after I had parked I went on-line ready to pay a charge but the only areas that came up were Birmingham or Bristol. Further research confirmed I didn't have to pay a charge but it is very confusing. All I can do is check before I travel if I know I am going through a major city. I only ever really do this when I visit my son in Brighton but I am certainly more cautious now. I also have family in Manchester so will need to check there too although Greater Manchester states "under review" for the charge.
I did check my vehicle for the CAZ scheme using the link you kindly posted and it is not compliant.
I have attached the original letters, sent to TfL directly after I received the PCNs in November. These are the letters TfL denied receiving.
The last time I can check the PCNs / OfRs is Friday but after this I won't be able to get to Yeovil court until 14th or 15th May - still within the 21 days even if the OfRs are issued whilst I am away next week.
Thank you again
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Did you post up the text of the representations that you sent to TFL? The Adjudicator will ask for those. We might as well have a look while you wait for the OfRs.
Also given where you live, please be aware that Bristol has a Clean Air Zone. You're likely not emissions compliant for the Bristol CAZ.
https://vehiclecheck.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/vehicle_checkers/enter_details
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@cp8759 I don't do anything now without advice from this forum. Once the CC's increase to £279 each I'll seek advice about the wording for the statutory declaration. Thanks again for everything.
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Let us know if you want to go down the complaint route, the wording has to be crafted in a very specific way.
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I will make a complaint at some point but as you say, now is not the time. I'll keep checking.
Many thanks
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It can sometimes take weeks, all you can do is keep checking every 10 days or so.
Ultimately if nothing happens for 4+ months, that would give you grounds to challenge the penalty on the ground of undue delay once you get the matter in front of an adjudicator.
You can force the matter by making a formal complaint, but you don't want to do that any time soon because the longer the delay, the stronger any claim of undue delay becomes.
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@cp8759 I check the status of the PCNs daily to see if the £270 has increased to £279 but £270 is still showing for both of them this morning.
The 14 day payment period (the period of time given prior to the order for recovery being issued) expired on 15th April. Is it normal for such a delay for the order for recovery to be authorised? Apologies for this message if you don't know.
I'm conscious that I will be out of the country between 6th and 13th May although I will still have plenty of time within the 21 days to get over to the court in Yeovil on my return.
I'm just really anxious as this matter has been dragging o ow for over 5 months.
Thanks for all your help.
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Status of PCNs checked again today - still showing as £270 and not £279
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It's a shame this country has got to such a state where everything has to be recorded in some form or another. the financial stakes are high for both sides, especially with the swingeing penalties charged by TfL and other government bodies.
I wonder how many others will be caught by thier own ignorance of the ulez when going to places like Heathrow or Chessington World of Adventures?
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Thank you, that makes things a little clearer
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Having spoken to Yeovil court last week, I am not at all certain that they will be prepared to sign the SD's as I am not sure they will accept the screenshots as evidence that I sent the letters.
It doesn't work like that, Yeovil court just watches you sign the forms and they sign to say that they've watched you sign, they have no discretion about this.
You then have to send the forms to tec@justice.gov.uk and it's up to the traffic enforcement centre whether they accept them or not, however if the forms are filed in-time (i.e. with 21 days of the deemed date of service) then TEC doesn't have any discretion either and they must accept the forms, which means that the order for recovery and the charge certificate will be cancelled.
The case would then get referred to the tribunal, and it's the adjudicator who actually gets to decide what's what. It is therefore the adjudicator who gets to decide whether you made representations in time, so at that stage you would want screenshots, timestamps etc. At that point even if you lose, at least the penalty will have gone back down from £270 to £180.
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@cp8759 Yes, I realise that now but I if I was ignorant about Ulez I was equally ignorant that a forum such as this existed. I only found the site as I searched for some help after becoming increasingly frustrated by the lack of any assistance from TfL. All I did was follow the steps on the reverse of the November PCNs and trusted the process - my biggest mistake. Non-one more than I wishes I had sent those original letters of appeal "signed for". I think I did have a look on-line but it didn't appear obvious what I needed to do hence the letters.
I don't have any proof the letters were sent, only screenshots of the word document properties that state they were created on 23/11 and 29/11. Why would I go to the trouble of creating the documents and not send them? It doesn't make any sense.
Having spoken to Yeovil court last week, I am not at all certain that they will be prepared to sign the SD's as I am not sure they will accept the screenshots as evidence that I sent the letters. I won't know until I actually rock up there but I was far from optimistic after I had spoken to the receptionist.
I failed to pay 2 x £12.50 (charges I would have willingly paid had I known they were due) and I am now faced with charges of £558. I think this is a disgrace. I have spoken to about 5 people I work with and not one of them knew what ULEZ was. There is a widespread lack of knowledge about ULEZ and the expansion of the charging zone in rural areas outside of London.
I check daily whether the charges has increased to £279 but today they are still showing as £270. My worry is that I will be out of the country from 6th to 13th May.
Many thanks for you help.
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@Little Nell I hate to tell you but much of what has gone wrong is down to you trying to navigate a complex process without seeking advice from the very start. The first and most basic point is that representations should always be made online precisely to avoid the sort of mess you now find yourself in, as you can screenshot the confirmation page and then you have proof that TFL has actually received the representations (and it is unheard of for a representation made online to "go missing").
Anyway, do you have proof of postage for the letters you sent in November?
The problem you face is that even if you get to the tribunal via the TEC process, if the tribunal isn't satisfied that you made representations within the 28 day period (the burden of proof of which lies with you), the tribunal will simply hold that it does not have jurisdiction and it will issue a direction to pay. This will get the amount back from £270 to £180 per PCN, but your substantive appeal won't even be heard.
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TfL have never re-offered the discount
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For some reason it seems to take around 4 business days for me to receive PCNs and CCs from TfL.
The letter I wrote to TfL in January was dated 17th and so I imagine I had received both the CC's (dated 9th & 10th of Jan) by 16th then took a day to get everything together (copy letters etc). I wouldn't have hung about. I have attached the letter I sent (by signed for post). I will have posted it 1st class on 17th when I wrote it.
The original letters in November went to ULEZ, PO Box 553, Darlington, DL1 9TZ which I got off the back of the PCNs.
The CC's dated April state that if I don't pay within 14 days the debt will be registered at County Court. I wasn't referring to the original discount period.
I have checked on the TfL website this morning and the amounts are still showing as £270, not £279 yet. I will continue to check each day.
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The charge cert at £270 for PCN XJ09548544 was issued on 09/01/2024
The charge cert at £279 for PCN XJ09803685 was issued on 10/01/2024
So you probably had both of them by Friday the 12th Jan 2024. Is that correct?
You then wrote a follow up letter to TFL, which they have logged as "representations" received on the 22nd Jan 2024. Is that correct?
Please post up the text of what you sent? And when exactly did you send it?
What address did you post the original representations to? IE the reps that you sent on the 23/11/2023 and 29/11/2023. One letter gone missing in the post happens. But two a week apart is a bit hard to swallow.
And what do you mean by "The 14 day payment timescale only ran out on 15/4 ......"? Seems to me that the 14 day discount window expired at the end of November 2023. Did TFL reoffer the discount and if so When?
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When I received the charge certificates dated January 2024, I telephoned TfL to ask why I had received the CCs when I hadn't received a response to my original letters of appeal (November 2023). It was during this call that TfL informed me they hadn't received the November letters. They provided no advice at all about what I should do next.
In the PCNs it doesn't state a timescale for TfL to advise whether an appeal has been successful or not. I just assumed (obviously naively) that their response was taking a little time because we were approaching Christmas.
When I wrote to TfL in January 24 I attached the two letters I had written in November so that they could see I hadn't just ignored the original PCNs. When TfL then stated that I was out of time I didn't think there would be any point contacting TfL again, especially as the grounds they sited for additional evidence didn't apply to me, and I wrote to RUCA.
As I have said before, I never do anything wrong. Just like the kind souls on here I try and do good wherever possible. I manage an almshouse charity for elderly people in need and in my spare time I am a Trustee and Treasurer for a local charity that focuses on outreach programs for disadvantaged groups. I have always been very respectful of authority and I would never have ignored the original PCNs. The second letter I wrote (29/11) was I admit rather brief as I wrote that the reason for my appeal was the same as the letter I sent on 23/11. I provided both PCN refs so that the two could be tied up and considered together. It still seems very strange to me that they received neither of these letters.
It didn't take 2 months for the letters to reach TfL; TfL are saying that they never received the original November letters. The letter they wrote to me in January was a response to a letter I had written to them in January (after I received the CC's) explaining the chronology of events up to that point.
I swear on everything I hold dear that I posted those November letters. There is a post box about 100m from where I work and so it was no inconvenience to me at all. I have checked whether or not there were postal strikes last November and got very excited when I saw that there were strikes around the time I posted the letters but the year was 2022 and not 2023.
I check daily to see if the Order for Recovery has been authorised but up to now it hasn't. The 14 day payment timescale only ran out on 15/4 and the £279 isn't showing yet.
Thank you all for the help thus far.
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I didn't reply to the TfL letter of 23/1 because the grounds allowed for them reconsider did not fall into any category I could respond to. This is when I wrote to RUCA but as you say, they would not consider my appeal because I had not received a rejection letter from TfL.
It is a mess isn't it. All because TfL states that they did not receive my rep letters dated 23/11 and 29/11 which were well within the 28 days timescale. As stated previously, I have screen shots of the properties of the November letters to TfL which only proves a document was created, not that it was actually posted. It may be possible for TfL not to have received one letter but not two surely?
The letter I sent to TfL in January was to explain that I had submitted rep letters very soon after the PCNs were received in November. TfL couldn't deny receiving the January letter because i sent it using "signed for" mail, and of course I have had a response.
As I understand it TFL have never denied receipt of your November letters. The PCN histories suggest that the letters arrived on the 22nd of Jan. That's nearly two weeks after the Charge Certs were served and two months after the PCNs were served.
As I explained above by that time the representations were so late that TFL no longer had any obligation to consider them. However they did write back the next day, the 23rd Jan, and asked for further evidence. However you didn't respond to that letter. Instead you wrote to the Tribunal.
There never were any Notices of Rejection which would have allowed you to appeal to the Tribunal.
You've told us there were two letters posted a week apart. How do you explain why it took two months for both letters to be delivered to TFL? You have to admit that it very much looks like you posted both letters of representation together, when prompted by the arrival of the Charge Certs with you. Are you positive that you posted the letters on November 23rd and 29th? Were there postal strikes in your area at the relevant time?
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I didn't reply to the TfL letter of 23/1 because the grounds allowed for them reconsider did not fall into any category I could respond to. This is when I wrote to RUCA but as you say, they would not consider my appeal because I had not received a rejection letter from TfL.
It is a mess isn't it. All because TfL states that they did not receive my rep letters dated 23/11 and 29/11 which were well within the 28 days timescale. As stated previously, I have screen shots of the properties of the November letters to TfL which only proves a document was created, not that it was actually posted. It may be possible for TfL not to have received one letter but not two surely?
The letter I sent to TfL in January was to explain that I had submitted rep letters very soon after the PCNs were received in November. TfL couldn't deny receiving the January letter because i sent it using "signed for" mail, and of course I have had a response.
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What a mess!
The status for both PCNs suggest that TFL did receive your original representations on the 22nd of January 2024. That was well out of time and they don't have to consider them when so late, although they have the discretionary power to do so. It is also nearly two weeks after the Charge Certs were served.
TFL then wrote to you on the 23rd Jan. They asked for further evidence as to why you were so late.
Did you actually respond to TFL?
If so, what did you say?
Or did you write to the London Tribunals to attempt to register an appeal?
The Tribunal can't schedule an appeal until you have a Notice of Rejection from TFL, which hasn't happened. That's why the cancelled the hearing.
Both PCNs are sitting at £270 outstanding. So the charges haven't been registered with the TEC as yet. The balance will increase to £279 for each PCN as and when the charge is registered. at that point you can submit the Statutory Declarations, one for each PCN, even if you have not yet received the Orders for Recovery. This should get the Orders for Recovery revoked and the Charge Certs cancelled.
The cases will be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. You will very likely be asked for evidence that you delivered representations within time.
You need to stay on top of the timelines.
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01 March 2024Appeal Withdrawn
An appeal submitted for this PCN has been withdrawn
I have been checking the PCNs daily so that I can submit SD's quickly once the Order for Recovery is made. The text above is what is showing on TfL but it was RUCA that declined my appeal - I didn't withdraw it. I'm not sure if this makes any difference
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Letter from RUCA stating that appeal scheduled for 5/3/24 cannot go ahead because I had not had a letter of rejection from TfL
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Original letter from RUCA attached, acknowledging my appeal, date set 5/3/24
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Two lots of letters from TfL (the first dated 6/2/24 and the second 27/2/24) acknowledging the appeal letter I sent to RUCA and stating that the matter is on hold and I would receive a full response. The only response I received was from RUCA which will follow
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Attached is the late representation disregard letter from TfL dated 23/1/24. As I have stated before, I have screen shots of the word documents (dated well within the 28 day limit for appeal) which are the letters I sent to TfL but I didn't get a proof of posting. After this I sent everything by "signed for" mail. Further docs to follow
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Thank you Enceladus. I will upload the correspondence from TfL and RUCA tomorrow. The 14 days to pay the increased fines runs out on Tuesday but I am checking daily to pick up when the order of recovery has been authorised. I have the PE3 forms and I will make an appointment at Yeovil court to get the SDs signed hopefully next week sometime
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Please post up the letters that you have had from TFL. Just redact your name & address, leave everything else visible.
Also any letters/email that you had from the London Tribunals.
Alas your car is a Euro 5 W204 diesel Mercedes. The NOx and Particulate Matter limits shown on the V5C exceed the Euro 6 limits, so it's non compliant for the ULEZ. It was worth checking as there are earlier cars that do meet the emissions standards even if they are registered as Euro 3 or Euro 5. And there are other reasons why the ULEZ database may not be accurate.
Petrol cars must be Euro 4 or have NOx emissions equal to, or less than, 0.08 grams per kilometre.
Diesel cars must be Euro 6 or have NOx emissions equal to, or less than, 0.08 grams per kilometre and Particulate Matter emissions equal to, or less than, 0.005 grams per kilometre.
These Low Emission Zones are being implemented all over the country. And also on the continent. Birmingham and Bristol catch people out every day. So check regularly
When sending correspondence to TFL or any other Local Authority then post 1st class at the Post Office counter, ie not in a postbox, and obtain a free of charge "Proof of Posting". Post before the last post collection and your letter will be deemed served (delivered) on the second working day after posting. Recorded and special delivery to a public body are usually a waste of money. Such post will be delivered in the same sack of post and may not even be signed for. Or use email where possible.
When you do submit the Statutory Declarations, one per PCN, the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court will will revoke the Orders for Recovery and order the Charge Certs cancelled. The case will be referred to the Adjudicator on how to proceed. The Adjudicator will likely ask you for copies of the representations you originally submitted. Probably the case will be held as an appeal.
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V5C also attached
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Previous thread refers, 1st PCN attached here
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I have photographed the original PCNs and they are attached.
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Thank you, I will check every day. To be honest I feel better already, just knowing someone is listening and not treating me like a liar
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The advice is correct, but you must be pro-active and check for when the debt has been registered at TEC. If you enquire on the amount outstanding when it goes up by £9 (the debt registration fee), you'll know you can submit your Statutory Declaration.
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I live in Somerset, 90 miles from Heathrow. I travelled to Heathrow on 9/11 for a flight to Prague, and back again on 12/11. At no time did I realise charges were payable for what is a small stretch of the M4. Until I received 2 PCN's I didn't even know what ULEZ stood for. The charges split between 3 of us would have been £8 each so virtually nothing.
I sent letters of rep to TfL on 23/11 and again on 29/11 appealing against the PCN's on the basis that I knew nothing about ULEZ or that the congestion charge area had been expanded. I heard nothing until I received 2 charge certificates. I phoned TfL asking why I had received no response to my original appeal letters and they stated they hadn't received them. I have screen shots of when the word docs were produced but no proof of posting. After this, everything I sent went by recorded deliver / signed for post. TfL refused any help on the telephone - the person I spoke to was completely uninterested in my dilemma. I then wrote again to the Darlington address (recorded delivery) explaing what had happened but their response was that my appeal was now outside the 28 days allowed. My original appeals were within the 28 days.
So I then wrote to RUCA explaining everything that had happened. RUCA scheduled my hearing for 5/3 but then closed my case because whilst TfL had originally told RUCA that TfL had issued a rejection letter, they later said they hadn't so RUCA was unable to hear my case. During this time I received two lots of the same letter from TfL thanking for my correspondence (to RUCA), that TfL would issue a full response and that no further action would be taken until a response had been issued - no such response as the next thing I receive is two more charge certificates of £270 each.
I understand now that TfL will register the debt with the County Court and that bailiffs could access my home to recover items to the value of the charge certificates. I intent to sign a statutory Declaration to state that I did appeal the PCN's within the 28 days but that TfL failed to respond although I am having difficulty finding a solicitor to sign my stat dec.
I don't know what to do now if anything. I don't want TfL to think I am not taking this matter seriously because I am - I am waking up with panic attacks at 3 in the morning worrying about these charges. I have never been in this position before. I even went on line and made 2 payments of £12.50 (admittedly retrospectively) because I have no issue with the charge itself. I would have happily paid it had I known it was due.
Do I wait for the order of recovery and make the stat dec (and hopefully find a solicitor willing to sign it) or do I possible make a complaint to ULEZ? I have everything laid out chronologically in a spreadsheet.
I never do anything wrong, I never break the law, but a debt of £540 from failing to pay charges of £25 seems monstrously unjust to me.
I understand that TEC reject most stat decs anyway. I just don't know what to do.
I have also made myself a member of another advice forum and they have explained that I can submit a stat dec once order of recovery is authorised.