Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ahsan on April 09, 2024, 09:23:56 pm
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Sadly on this occasion I have paid the ticket.
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@ahsan I assume you've given up but for future reference here is The Newham (Prescribed Routes) (No. 5) Traffic Order 1998 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1neAx5ZSFgUiEsvyIWvVzO-9Oxtkq7f_f/view).
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@lexy the allegation is 33E, not sure how a no entry comes into it?
Anyway, the allegation is that the vehicle passed these signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/P3V8qkH9NpsReoxYA
@ahsan one issue is that the location is wrong, the signs are wholly on Glen Road. Another issue is whether the road is even a road for the purposes of section 142 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1984, as the barrier suggests the hospital retains control over that land as a landowner, which is incompatible with the road being a road to which the public has a right of access.
Then we have the various TMO issues including The Newham (Prescribed Routes) (No. 5) Traffic Order 1998, which I have requested a copy of.
However ultimately the council could wake up and point out that the signs are section 36 signs that don't need a TMO at all (though in 99% of bus gate cases the council relies on a TMO for some reason or another), so while there is a fair chance the council might mess things up, the outcome cannot be guaranteed.
You therefore need to decide whether you want to carry on. I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented.
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“No entry except buses”?
As far as I’m aware - and I’m willing to be corrected - that is not a legal combination of signs that councils can use or enforce. I believe the only “except” plate you can use with a no entry sign is “except cycles”.
“Buses only” is fine. “No motor vehicles except buses” is also fine. But not “no entry except buses”.
This raises two other technical points. Firstly, councils can’t enforce “no entry” signs. They can enforce you making a prohibited turn into a no entry road. They can enforce you failing to proceed in the direction of an arrow shown on a blue sign. But not a pure “no entry”.
Secondly, “no entry” just means you can’t physically pass the sign. It doesn’t mean you can’t *be* past the sign. Near my work, there’s a two-way road with a no entry sign at one end, to stop people using it as a rat run. It’s perfectly legal to drive down that road towards the back of the no entry sign, turn around, and drive back up the road. Because you didn’t pass the no entry sign. Just because you’re driving after a no entry sign doesn’t mean you passed the no entry sign.
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Hi all,
I received letter today Newham have rejected the formal representation.
Here is the letter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IMrqnIsUilS8l0S1YEVZHptBafF8vwr-/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13r9i90cTnBE6QU_gFzGj_FnhY5J_-lUS/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17aveeKGKZt4J5fAcUqlD68vtnlAKbwf2/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rhCKngc_tmPbLeWHhZmxUNo7dLvj5dp4/view?usp=sharing
Can you please suggest what should we do next?
Thanks in advance.
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This looks like the original Notice:-
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-55296-279
Take your pick as to bus clearway or prescribed route.
Mike
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@Hippocrates & @cp8759 I did formal representation on 21/04 since then I have not received any further letter from Newham Council.
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What are they like!?
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Curiouser and curiouser...
(https://i.imgur.com/KMXUjfP.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VsvRCGS.png)
I've now requested the "other" traffic order, let's see what turns up.
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I've requested the traffic order.
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I have made the formal representation today, thanks for the draft Hippocrates.
Ill share with you the outcome when I receive the decision. Thanks.
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Ok great, I’ll wait today for any other comment and make the representation later today and see how it goes. Fingers crossed.
Thanks for drafting the representation.
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I have checked the video and their challenge page which lists procedural impropriety as a ground. This does not exist in this legislation.
So, I suggest this.
Dear Newham
I make these formal representations against PCN PN74910
1. The video does not show the vehicle pass any sign facing the driver.
2. The challenge page on your website states procedural impropriety as a ground. This is wrong and confusing.
3. Any mitigating circumstances.............
In view of the above, please cancel the PCN
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The PCN looks OK to me. There is a flaw in the actual Act of Parliament regarding time periods to submit payment and the time period for submitting representations, and some London councils have got this wrong and lost at an adjudication but your's looks OK as far as I can see.
Of all the councils, this one has virtually solved the puzzle.
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Does anyone else think I can avoid this ticket or I’ll have to pay?
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The PCN looks OK to me. There is a flaw in the actual Act of Parliament regarding time periods to submit payment and the time period for submitting representations, and some London councils have got this wrong and lost at an adjudication but your's looks OK as far as I can see.
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Hi all,
Here is the full ticket:
Page1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14LiXgBsSnMYoj7F23PErvHqw1LaTFRVB/view?usp=drive_link
Page2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DTJa1hfzbdgbWqQ3Hli4NQV8NsLBXWfk/view?usp=drive_link
Page3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k-3_EM61CkxzVWm1A8yYuseJS_ofl2PU/view?usp=drive_link
Page4: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tQtNKevCpyY628DZH1R_D1lmsg8Hl1kM/view?usp=drive_link
I hope someone provide further guidance after reviewing the ticket in it's entirety.
Thanks in advance.
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On the contravention itself, it seems to be made out OK, but that may not be the end of the matter, but I'm not an expert in the Act under which your wife's PCN was issued so wait and see what the others say before paying or submitting representations, but don't miss any deadlines in the PCN.
Can you please post all of the PCN so we can read the "small print". Councils often get this wrong.
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You are right and I would’ve taken U turn as well as soon as I would’ve realised I’m going the wrong way.
She drove to the hospital for the first time alone, she thought she could carry on and eventually will be able to go round and come back Prince regent lane.
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I had a quick look on GSV, but it's unfortunately not as up-to-date as one would wish, but it is clear there has been a buses-only restriction there for some time.
Here is what you see when you approad on Glen Road
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XNGe6v5hSZR3tFHEA
and from Boundary Lane
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6HPqU54TS98wciUy7
As far as I can see, their photos show you emerging from the bus-only gate towards Boundary Lane roundabout, which fits with your narrative on your wife turning left instead of right when leaving the hospital. However the bottom line is she appears to have completely ignored the Buses Only signs.
The question has to be why she persisted in going the way she did, when it was not the way she got to the hospital. It would have been quite easy to do a U-turn, surely ?
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Hi wizards,
I hope you are well.
I’ve got this ticket couple of weeks ago, my wife had to go to Newham hospital, on her exit from parking instead of taking right she took left turn and end up going towards Boundary Lane where this event happened.
Is there anything which can be done to avoid this ticket?
Ticket:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bMkaDJWOfC3DXEgTBhNvruExEl5qZ91k/view?usp=drivesdk
PCN evidence can be viewed here:
https://parking.newham.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW