Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: sahandnaz on April 09, 2024, 03:30:44 pm

Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on October 12, 2024, 12:03:48 am
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on August 18, 2024, 10:00:57 pm
@sahandnaz well obviously you should appeal as you have nothing to lose at this point, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on August 18, 2024, 01:02:51 am
@cp8759 I only have 6 more days to reply to reach them by the deadline, please can you help with my appeal? thank you.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Incandescent on August 05, 2024, 11:49:53 pm
No doubt cp8759 will soon be on, but clearly, with no re-offer of the discount, it is now a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals. The detail on how to do this should be on their letter of refusal of representations. There are no additional costs in taking TfL to adjudication.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on August 05, 2024, 11:03:10 pm
Hi administrator

So as you predicted they rejected my formal representation. Now I have to appeal by 27th August 2024 latest.  What on earth is their logic and how can I get through to them?  Please advise on how to word my appeal if different from the Actual representation (images attached on link of my representation and the TFL rejection).

https://ibb.co/album/QrzHxp

Should I refer to the legal precedence, another case you posted similar to mine and lead to the case being dropped? As you said earlier "I won an almost identical case on this basis last year, see Muhammad Adnan Aslam v Transport for London (2220794881, 17 May 2023), the only difference in that case is that there were no bay markings, just double red lines and an upright sign." https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zic3j2Le-kDKFIOFp36zQMhKPNwKjgSe/view

Many thanks
Naz
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2024, 10:00:30 am
Short and simple:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur, owing to the contradictory and ambiguous signage at this location, I refer you to my informal representations in the first instance. While I accept there are double red lines at this location, there is also an upright sign indicating stopping is only restricted from 7 am to 7 pm, and my vehicle was parked outside of these hours. Looking at the location history on Google street view it is apparent that there is meant to be a white bay at this location i.e. a bay that is available at all times. If the restriction was ever amended to be a double red line restriction, it appears you must have forgotten to remove the upright sign, and the result is that the signage at this location no longer complies with regulation 18(1) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

It follows that the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


TFL will probably reject but it's hard to see how they could defend this PCN at the tribunal. Send the representation via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Incandescent on July 02, 2024, 10:47:22 pm
Loads of people get PCNs here , but it would seem they just all cough-up, despite there being a facility to submit representations and finally to take the matter to London Tribunals.  This is, of course, because most people know almost nothing of the details of parking law, and road markings, and assume, wrongly, that the councils and TfL are always right, so just pay the discount to make it all go away.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on July 02, 2024, 10:42:56 pm
Thanks i'm well appreciative of all the help and will await admins help

In terms of how long this could have been going on for: It's been since Dec 2023. After talking to Simmon's bar management next door, they informed me that the council repaved the road around Dec 2023 and the contractors painted the whole street with double red lines. Later they came back to paint the white line box demarcations but did not remove the red line inside this white box demarcation specifically at this spot. Since Dec 2023 to now they have been fining people in this white box demarcation, the staff told me loads of people they know have been fined at this exact spot I was in.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Incandescent on July 02, 2024, 10:27:03 pm
Our administrator has said he will prepare formal reps for you when you get the NtO, so I expect he will be along here shortly. I had a look on London Tribunals Statutory Register for Curtain Road from Jan 2022, but there seem to be no cases matching yours, almost all of them are for footway parking.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on July 02, 2024, 07:00:16 pm
Dear all helpers,

I have received notice to owner, how would you recommend replying?

Just to recap, the marked bay saying you can park outside of the controlled hours 7am to 7pm was wrongly marked with double red lines inside it and is a hotspot for revenue generation by TFL. confirmed by the local bar staff tfl is using this to constantly fine people. you can't have both white lines for the parking bay and double red lines in the bay, but they have done since they repainted the road.

google maps link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJsdWJzxEy8DPFiT6

photos link:
https://ibb.co/album/KNsLz1
- explanation, black volvo is mine, when i went back to photograph the location, white van was parked where i was and so i am drawing attention to location by circling same landmarks as on the original photo with my black volvo. also, there are two lanes to drive and one parking pay. the fining officer purposefully tries to cut off the white parking bay lines off in his photos (again confirmed by the local bar staff)

notice to owner: it's only 1MB pdf, this site wont let me attach it, says capacity is full, shall i start a new post? "The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."

or maybe google drive link works?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FgDUgVQNWYWsZOrQ2kndsvOjifBbXWsr/view?usp=sharing

thank you for your help
naz
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 09:33:07 pm
@sahandnaz according to the TFL website at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn your address was requested from DVLA on 31 May and there has not been a response yet.

I suggest you keep an eye on the TFL website and check the PCN status at least once a week. Once you can see the NTO has been issued you can make representations immediately, you don't need to physically received the PCN in order to challenge it.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Incandescent on June 15, 2024, 12:22:19 pm
Quote from: sahandnaz on June 15, 2024, 12:17:59 pm
Hi and in respone I have taken a whole series of photos as put in my initial post.

I still don't have the "notice to owner", what should I do as it has been now just over 2 months since the informal appeal.
They have 6 months to issue a Notice to Owner, but anything over 3 months can be considered acting unfairly. So it is early days yet.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on June 15, 2024, 12:17:59 pm
Hi and in response I have taken a whole series of photos as put in my initial post with a link to extra imags.

I still don't have the "notice to owner", what should I do as it has been now just over 2 months since the informal appeal?

Thanks
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: H C Andersen on May 13, 2024, 09:06:06 am

....or equally much further back near the wall 'art' slap bang on the DYL?

IMO, the OP shouldn't leave this matter to chance at adjudication and should if possible obtain photos which on the balance of probabilities show the relevant street furniture which matches that in the council's photos taken from the same position.

..and of course the DRL within the box and the box together which would be the clincher.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: ManxTom on May 12, 2024, 11:51:53 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on May 12, 2024, 11:23:35 am

... I can see a manhole cover immediately ahead of your car and a gulley grating behind. Your car is also flanked by new(ish) kerb stones many of which seem to be flush with the carriageway.

GSV puts this combination well away from the marked bay** and right on the DRL...


On the contrary, don't the manhole cover and the grating actually put the OP's car slap bang in the middle of the marked bay and well away from the DRLs?

See the GSV from July 2021  -  https://maps.app.goo.gl/L8SAsjFtvdkDMVCM8
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on May 12, 2024, 10:47:43 pm
Quote from: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 08:00:31 pm
@cp8759 great thanks for that info, good work! so should i basically simplify my argument in the appeal about the wrong signage and send the same thing in the appeal?
@sahandnaz before you can appeal you need to wait for the notice to owner, then you need to make a formal representation and if that is rejected, only at that point you can appeal.

There is nothing basic or simple about this, when people try to go it alone it can end in disaster, as sadly illustrated by these cases that were all winnable:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/eta-appeal-lost/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/

I suggest you post up the notice to owner when you receive it and we'll help you draft a formal representation.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: H C Andersen on May 12, 2024, 11:23:35 am
None of the photos you've posted of your car puts you and the sign to which you refer in the same shot*. All we have is your account and the contextual elements in the photos, none of which shows bay markings in the vicinity of your car.

I can see a manhole cover immediately ahead of your car and a gulley grating behind. Your car is also flanked by new(ish) kerb stones many of which seem to be flush with the carriageway.

GSV puts this combination well away from the marked bay** and right on the DRL.

To put the matter beyond doubt I think you need clear photos of where you were parked which show the same combination of contextual factors and the DRL within the bay.

*- neither do the council's.

**- I've seen this (what I consider to be misleading) signage before and wonder whether it's becoming more widespread. The TfL website which you've referenced shows that a white-lined box means that the specified exemptions apply for the same period as the prohibition. From which a driver who's driving along a DRL-lined road should expect to be exempt, even if time-limited, 24/7. But this is not what's happened. Here, the 24/7 prohibition has suddenly changed at the bay and only for the extent of the bay which still exempts for the whole of the amended hours, BUT NOT 24/7.

Permissible/improper/sharp practice/unlawful? Who knows?

But pl nail the issue evidentially of where your car was parked first pl.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 08:00:31 pm
@cp8759 great thanks for that info, good work! so should i basically simplify my argument in the appeal about the wrong signage and send the same thing in the appeal?
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Grant Urismo on May 11, 2024, 10:40:07 am
You do have a case, because the council have a duty to put up signs that adequately convey the restrictions made by the order. They can't write an order that says parking is banned on a street, put up free parking signs and then hand out tickets saying 'ha ha, tricked you', which is effectively what's happened to you.

In your case, the distinction is probably only relevant if you need to explain to an adjudicator exactly how the council have messed up, it might have been that the red lines shouldn't have been there or that the bay shouldn't have been there, but as cp8759 says, the council presenting contradictory information to the motorist is a win for you anyway.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on May 11, 2024, 10:38:44 am
Quote from: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 08:38:18 am
@cp8759 or @MrChips so does this mean I dont have a case for winning?
@sahandnaz no it's the other way round: you're highly likely to have a winning appeal.

You're likely to have a winning appeal in any event because where the signs and lines are contradictory, there is no contravention. I won an almost identical case on this basis last year, see Muhammad Adnan Aslam v Transport for London (2220794881, 17 May 2023) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zic3j2Le-kDKFIOFp36zQMhKPNwKjgSe/view), the only difference in that case is that there were no bay markings, just double red lines and an upright sign.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 08:38:18 am
@cp8759 or @MrChips so does this mean I dont have a case for winning? The sign for the parking bay said one thing which contradicted the double red lines.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: MrChips on May 11, 2024, 08:23:06 am
If the street signs convey one restriction and the order (the legal paperwork which governs the restriction) conveys a different restriction, then it's the order which counts.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 07:28:00 am
. If there is a conflict between the signs and the order, the order prevails.

- I dont understand what you mean by this?
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on May 11, 2024, 12:47:14 am
@sahandnaz it's not an informal appeal, it's an informal representations. By pure chance I got this FOI response from TFL:

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0233-2425

So the bay designation has not been changed, and the orders I posted above are the only ones that exist. If there is a conflict between the signs and the order, the order prevails.

You don't need to respond, just wait for the notice to owner. It's work keeping an eye on the PCN status on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn because you can make representations as soon as the NTO is issued, you don't need to physically receive it in order to challenge it.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on May 10, 2024, 11:22:27 pm
So as you predicted, the informal appeal was rejected. They don't even acknowledge that the marked bay had restricted hours that I was outside of, they just state that there were double red lines. Well you can't have both. This is misleading and false signage.

How should i respond? I have attached the pdf showing their response.

Thank you

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on May 09, 2024, 11:47:57 pm
Just to update you i'm still waiting on their response, given the wait I anticipate they have gone to investigate the error in their marking and I expect they are shitting themselves of the number of refunds for parking tickets they will have to give going back almost 6 months since the bay was incorrectly red marked.

Also the photo you requested in the previous message can be found here in image 2b
https://ibb.co/album/f8Zjyb

Thanks
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: cp8759 on April 19, 2024, 12:08:08 pm
@sahandnaz your representation will likely be rejected, don't let that worry you as TFL routinely refuses all informal representations in order to collect as much money as possible.

The traffic order for this road is The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Hackney) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nKIasnoMqHziJSAr2N9ClJfbAK76Wwbg/view) and there is an amendment in The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Hackney) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 Variation Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pzu_9QqRa3Jbr1MpjQS6iaJF345RG4AS/view), I'll find out if there have been any later amendments.

Ultimately at the tribunal this should be an open and shut win, but it would be helpful if you could return to the location and get a photo from where the man in the red t-shirt is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/poU4u6pqZkHGzF4o6

What you want to capture is the sign, the bay and the double red lines inside the bay. It doesn't matter if you can only see the profile of the sign as we have plenty of other photos of the sign.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on April 13, 2024, 03:36:11 pm
Please help me modify this challenge and advise, I have till tomorrow before i will miss the "informal appeal" two week deadline.

*******************
Dear Sir/Madam,

Penalty Charge Notice: GF84042729
Vehicle registration number: YS67 ZZL

I am writing to submit an informal appeal with regards the above parking ticket. I am making my appeal due to the following reasons:

The alleged contravention did not occur

I parked at the location shown in the CEO's photos outside the controlled hours of the restrictions, ie after 7pm and left before 7am.

The CEO took 3 photos, two of the front of my car and one of the rear.

Of these photos, one, numbered no.1 on TfL's website, clearly shows my car adjacent to double red lines on its offside while at the same time showing white dash marked on the carriageway parallel to the DRL. This was the parking bay in which I was parked.

None of the CEO's photos shows a traffic sign which should have been documented by the CEO.

At the time of receiving the fine, I was in absolute shock and could not understand why this penalty had been given.  Due to the shock I only took one photo showing the traffic sign right next to my car. The time and date location is shown in the screenshot of the image properties (photo 1)

Examination of my photos of the location taken on subsequent days (when a white van was parked at the same location) shows that I was parked within a white parking bay, within which were double red lines and adjacent to a traffic sign.

A comparison of the CEO’s photos and the photos I took of this location on a subsequent day show that these locations are the same based on this evidence:

Photo 2: Marking A (yellow circle). The fence posts of the building adjacent to UAL (University of arts of London) is visible circled in yellow

Photo 3: Marking B (red circle). The painting on the wall is circled in red.

Photo 4 & 5: The drain on the ground circled in red show my cars position and then the subsequent days the white vans position in relation to this drain. Ie. Showing that these vehicles are both in the same location in the white bay

Photo 6 & 7: Lane photos of this location show two driving lanes marked Lane One and Lane two followed by a Parking bay. The CEO’s photos show the same thing: my parked vehicle in a parking bay followed by two driving lanes.

Photo 8: showing the rules for white parking bays on red routes from TFL website

In addition to the above evidence, the traffic sign comprises 3 panels and follows the format given in TfL's publication and website 'Rules of Red Routes' and I quote the text from this publication:

“Our signs are quite distinct from other road signs and generally have three parts to inform you of the restrictions and exemptions in place at a particular bay.

The top of the sign tells you that you are on the red route. The middle tells you when the rules apply, the times differ in each borough so always check the sign. The bottom tells you the times and activity you can use the bay for.”

In this case:

The middle panel states: No stopping on any day 7am-7pm;
The lower panel states: Except loading max 20 minutes; Blue badge holders max 3 hours.

From the above, the following legally follow:

TfL have improperly signed a red route because it is not permissible to have a white or red bay with internal red route markings of any sort, let alone double red lines.

According to TfL, the traffic sign conveys a prohibition for the hours of 7am to 7pm only ('the middle [panel] tells you when the rules apply');
That as the alleged contravention occurred at 23.47, in reality it could not and did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

Incidentally, I also had a disabled badge displayed for the person that I had dropped off. However this is secondary to the main point which is that I was outside the controlled hours for this parking pay and therefore the contravention did not occur.

I shall write to the authority separately regarding the improper and therefore misleading signs and signage which must be rectified as a matter of urgency.  I will also be requesting as a matter of urgency, an enquiry into officer 1062 who carefully selected their photos to not show the traffic sign and to attempt to mislead by taking angles of photos so as to obscure the parking bay.

After talking to the businesses adjacent to this location, I have confirmed that this is standard practice by the traffic wardens frequenting this location.

Kind regards.

Yours faithfully,

ALL PHOTOS to be sent can be found here: https://ibb.co/album/bHBTTr

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: John U.K. on April 13, 2024, 09:55:34 am
Quote from: sahandnaz on April 12, 2024, 07:48:44 pm
Hi, any further advice regarding this ticket before I respond please?
Thanks


Put your draft response here for comment before sending.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on April 12, 2024, 07:48:44 pm
Hi, any further advice regarding this ticket before I respond please?

Thanks
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: Incandescent on April 09, 2024, 07:13:24 pm
It looks to be a complete Dog's Breakfast, with double-red lines indicating no stopping 24x7, and a bay with a sign allowing loading or BB parking between certain times !  The two can't be together, it's either one or the other. If it was a single red line then OK.

However TfL are in a total mess with their enforcement practices and PCNs so hopefully our administrator will be along soon to tell you all about it.
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on April 09, 2024, 04:55:37 pm
Appologies, i've now put the full PCN up as two images. It's a very long page but nothing on opposite side.

Google link location is in original post, made it shorter

All it says in terms of Contravention is below and very vague as you pointed out:

"In circumstances giving me reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle was stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)"
Title: Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: John U.K. on April 09, 2024, 04:16:12 pm
Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post here both sides of the entire unredacted PCN and a GSV link to the location.

I note there is no contravention code on the portion of the PCN you have posted.
Title: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
Post by: sahandnaz on April 09, 2024, 03:30:44 pm
I parked in the white box demarcation of a red route. The demarcation area had a sign which said the controlled hours are 7am to 7pm and I parked outside of these hours so should be exempt from any of the rules. However, I did have a disabled badge which was also presented as standard. I believe I parked less than 3 hours. The fine was receieved at 23:47 outside of controlled hours, which is the important point.

After talking to Simmon's bar management next door, they informed me that the council repaved the road around Dec 2023 and the contractors painted the whole street as it was raining (possibly to do it quicker). Later they came back to paint the white line box demarcations but did not remove the red line inside this white box demarcation specifically at this spot. Since Dec 2023 to now they have been fining people in this white box demarcation and reaping all the profits!

Would you please help me fight this case and advise who I should approach to expose them and get a court ruling to reverse all the thousands of fines that have likely been issued since Dec 2023 incorrectly? I will probably have to start with a FOI request for the number of fines in this area and then approach someone like Thisismoney to expose the case better.

I have circled in yellow the fence posts of the property behind my car (the black volvo) and also circled this area in the subsequent days when I went back to photograph the boxed white area (this time i couldn't park there as white van was there). The red circle shows the painting of the face on the wall. Google maps images from a few years ago shows some differences to the current street: the painting on the wall has changed and the boxed area used to not have red lines in it.

Please could you help me to word a response to TFL. I have till end of this week Fri 12th April to post an informal appeal which I aim to do.

Google Maps Link to Location: the boxed area is right in front of the UAL entrance
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJsdWJzxEy8DPFiT6

There isn't enough upload space to post all my photos, please see the album with all images here:
https://ibb.co/album/f8Zjyb

Thank you so much for all your help,
Naz

[attachment deleted by admin]