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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: londondriver1994 on April 08, 2024, 01:45:56 am

Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on August 13, 2024, 12:14:37 am
I know, what a ridiculous letter. They also never clicked the links to see the other cases and what a waste of everyone's time to reject two appeals only to fold with the threat of going to the tribunal
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: Incandescent on August 12, 2024, 11:20:23 pm
What a load of tosh their letter is.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: stamfordman on August 12, 2024, 09:51:21 pm
So as the duty of the motorist to consult the parking sign meets the old chestnut of the notice 'correctly' stapled to a tree, and as the authority meets the tribunal of doom, it's the end of the show. 
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on August 12, 2024, 07:41:43 pm
Thanks everyone, just in case it is helpful for future interest, below is the final response from the council:

Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I am writing in connection with your appeal to the London Tribunals Environment and
Traffic Adjudicators.
We have decided on further consideration, without prejudice to our position, to cancel this
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
We will therefore not be contesting your appeal and have advised London Tribunals of our
decision.
I can see that you paid via a resident’s visitor permit for the whole day of parking, and also
that this is the first time that you have parked on a suspended bay. I have taken this into
further consideration in mitigation.
However, I must point out that the PCN had been correctly issued. This cancellation is
purely a discretionary gesture, accompanied by advice.
Suspensions need to be enforced strictly for the benefit of local residents. I am wholly
satisfied that this suspension was well signed, and that the signage was correctly and
legally placed on an adjacent tree.
Motorists must always look out for the big yellow suspension signs. You have stated that
the suspension sign should be fixed to the nearest time-plate, and you seem to be under
the false impression that it is a requirement for a council to place a suspension sign on the
nearest time-plate.
In fact, there is no such requirement. Councils are permitted by the regulations simply to
place suspension signs on the nearest available place to a suspended bay. This can
include any fixed street asset, including trees, posts, lamp posts, fences and railings.

The requirement is simply to place the sign at the nearest place possible to the suspended
bay.
In this particular case, the tree was closer than the nearest time-plate.
We therefore correctly used the tree.
In addition, the tree and sign was very close to your vehicle, as this CEO image shows: (image not attached but available above)

Another indication of a suspended area is a lack of parked vehicles. There were no
vehicles parked behind your vehicle.
I trust that you are now fully informed about looking out everywhere (day and night) for
adjacent suspension signs, going forward. They are always bright yellow to make them as
visible as possible.

Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: cp8759 on August 07, 2024, 11:13:20 pm
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: Incandescent on July 29, 2024, 04:56:16 pm
No re-offer of the discount, so it is now a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, as the penalty does not increase and there are no additional costs.

I see your reps are by cp8759, so I expect he'll suggest what to put in your appeal. Main advice is to not go for a papers-based adjudication, but a hearing, which will be by telephone. Their letter is tosh, of course; the suspension sign(s) should have been placed on the bay sign(s).
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on July 29, 2024, 11:33:14 am
Hello, sadly the council rejected my formal appeal. Here is their response:

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice : HZ76996801
Verification Code : 77G415
Date of Contravention : 02/04/2024 at 10:03
Vehicle Registration : KP19UZJ
Location : KINGWOOD ROAD
NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATION
Thank you for your representation.
Why the PCN was issued?
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a suspended parking bay during
controlled hours.
Your challenge
You have stated that;
“At the time of parking I walked towards the regulatory sign for the bay and I did not see
any suspension sign attached, therefore I had no reason to conduct any further searches
for signage attaches to trees, railings or elsewhere.
I therefore challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. This is
because the authority appears to have attached the suspension sign to a tree, and in the
rejection of my initial appeal you seemed to accepted that the suspension sign was not
placed correctly on the regulatory sign for the bay. The legal duty on motorists is to check
the regulatory sign for the bay. There is no legal duty to conduct a random inspection of
the local flora. If the suspension sign had been where it should have been then I would
have parked elsewhere.

I also draw your attention to the decisions in Saeed at https://2ly.link/1yVLY and Gajendra
at https://2ly.link/1yVLZ and while these are not binding, there is no reason to believe the
tribunal would reach a different conclusion on this occasion.”
My findings
Council officers can suspend the use of parking bays for reasons such as:
• to provide access for people moving house
• to provide access for utility companies who need to do street works
• to provide access for Council contractors (drain clearing, tree pruning, etc)
• to provide access for funeral cars
When we suspend parking, we place yellow warning signs in the area at least seven days
in advance, these warn motorists that a suspension is (or will be) in force. No vehicle may
park in a suspended area while the suspension is in force, unless the space was
suspended for that particular vehicle.
The CEOs notes state that; following a period of 6 minutes' observation, over which no
activity involving the vehicle was seen, the PCN was issued.
I can confirm the temporary signage for this suspension was located on a tree directly
behind your vehicle. Furthermore, we are satisfied that the sign was placed in a
reasonable location which was clear and visible to drivers.
Drivers have a responsibility to comply with all signs and markings relating to road traffic
restrictions and directions. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.
My decision
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree
that we should cancel your liability for this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
What happens next
Your options are detailed below.
The amount currently due is £130.00.
Before the end of the period of 28 days (beginning with the date of service of the notice of
rejection), you should:
- pay £130.00; or
- Appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. To appeal, complete the enclosed
form `Your right to appeal` and send it to the London Tribunals - Environment and Traffic
Adjudicators. DO NOT SEND YOUR APPEAL FORM TO THIS OFFICE. Alternatively you
can make your appeal online at the following address www.LondonTribunals.gov.uk.
Please ensure that you quote the unique appeal verification code stated on this Notice of
Rejection and follow the online instructions on how to complete your appeal.
Any appeal to London Tribunals should be made within 28 days of the date of service of
this notice. Late appeals may be considered; however, this would only be at the discretion
of the Adjudicator.

Appealing to the Adjudicator is free. Adjudicators do not normally award costs or
expenses, although they can do so if they decide that either you or we acted frivolously,
vexatiously, or wholly unreasonably in the appeal, or that our decision in this Notice of
Rejection was wholly unreasonable.


Never done an appeal to the tribunal before, any advice for completing the process?

Many thanks as always
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on June 17, 2024, 10:33:29 pm
Many thanks for all the support and especially cp8759 for drafting a response. I really appreciate all the support in this matter
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: H C Andersen on June 16, 2024, 08:11:47 pm
IMO this understates the matter and does not draw what seems to be a clear inference from the authority's response to the informal reps i.e. they do NOT claim that a suspension sign was co-located with the traffic sign.

Therefore I think the reps could be beefed up e.g.'as the authority do not claim that a suspension sign was displayed and co-located with the traffic sign, as required (see the decision in the case of Gajendra ** link**) it follows that the council had not met its duty to display the notice of suspension as required and consequently the contravention did not occur' etc.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 05:25:40 pm
I will PM you some links to put in the representation, they will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gkQTPYqPM5aTzL-reB_KFBHgdHbGSvE9/view) and here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10zSN5RaA7RxAG-HIu2UqhiwYMUO_y7JQ/view) but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on the links I PM you as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Dear London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham,

At the time of parking I walked towards the regulatory sign for the bay and I did not see any suspension sign attached, therefore I had no reason to conduct any further searches for signage attaches to trees, railings or elsewhere.

I therefore challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because the authority appears to have attached the suspension sign to a tree, and the legal duty on motorists is to check the regulatory sign for the bay. There is no legal duty to conduct a random inspection of the local flora. If the suspension sign had been where it should have been then I would have parked elsewhere.

I also draw your attention to the decisions in Saeed at LINK1 and Gajendra at LINK2 and while these are not binding, there is no reason to believe the tribunal would reach a different conclusion on this occasion.

Yours faithfully,


Make the representations on the council website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on June 13, 2024, 10:00:07 pm
Images from the letter here

(https://i.imgur.com/QFYhtBP.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/B28Nll9.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7tIuvQJ.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lJF3Ip6.jpeg)
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: John U.K. on June 13, 2024, 09:18:48 pm
Quote from: londondriver1994 on June 13, 2024, 09:15:57 pm
Hi everyone,
I got my notice to keeper. From the looks of it again it is saying to challenge it, to do it via their website. Is that another informal appeal to the council or will this be what goes to the tribunal?

It will be the Notice to Owner (NtO). Please to post up all sides here, redacting only your name & address.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on June 13, 2024, 09:15:57 pm
Hi everyone,

I got my notice to keeper. From the looks of it again it is saying to challenge it, to do it via their website. Is that another informal appeal to the council or will this be what goes to the tribunal?

Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 29, 2024, 12:57:07 pm
Yes I do and it is up to date

Thank you so much!
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: cp8759 on April 28, 2024, 04:20:36 pm
Wait for the notice to owner and I will draft a formal representation for you.

Do you have the V5C, and if so is the address on the V5C up to date?
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 24, 2024, 05:57:48 pm
Thanks for the advice. I will see if cp8759 says anything about my chances at the tribunal.
Any advice on preparing a case to go to the tribunal? 
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: Incandescent on April 23, 2024, 02:41:43 pm
It's the usual Fob-Off.  If cp8759 thinks you have a strong case then I'd be tempted to take then to London Tribunals, but first you'll have to wait for the Notice to Owner.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 23, 2024, 02:15:25 pm
Sadly the appeal got rejected yesterday. Here is the council reply

Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
Why the PCN was issued?
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a suspended parking bay during
controlled hours.
Your challenge
You have stated that:
At the time of parking I walked towards the regulatory sign for the bay and I did not see
any suspension sign attached, therefore I had no reason to conduct any further searches
for signage attaches to trees, railings or elsewhere.
I therefore challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. This is
because the authority appears to have attached the suspension sign to a tree, and the
legal duty on motorists is to check the regulatory sign for the bay. There is no legal duty to
conduct a random inspection of the local flora, especially when parking at night and it is
not illuminated so is not obvious.
If the suspension sign had been where it should have been then I would have parked
elsewhere.

My findings
Council officers can suspend the use of parking bays for reasons such as:
• to provide access for people moving house
• to provide access for utility companies who need to do street works
• to provide access for Council contractors (drain clearing, tree pruning, etc)
• to provide access for funeral cars
When we suspend parking, we place yellow warning signs in the area at least seven days
in advance, these warn motorists that a suspension is (or will be) in force. No vehicle may
park in a suspended area while the suspension is in force, unless the space was
suspended for that particular vehicle.
The Civil Enforcement Officer’s (CEO) notes state that; following a period of 5 minutes'
observation, over which no activity involving the vehicle was seen, the PCN was issued.
I have noted your comments in regards to not seeing the suspension signage, however
after viewing the image provided by the issuing CEO the signage is placed near where the
vehicle was parked.
It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure that they are aware of and comply with the
restrictions in force, reading and understanding all relevant signage. If the restrictions are
not known, or cannot be complied with, alternative parking arrangements must be sought.
Please view the images below.

Drivers have the responsibility of checking signs and markings, and must act in
accordance with them. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.
My decision
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree
that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.
What happens next
Your options are detailed below.
If you wish to pay at the discounted rate of £65.00, you may still do so, provided we
receive your £65.00 payment within 14 days of the date of this letter. THIS OFFER WILL
NOT BE REPEATED. Once these 14 days have expired, the full charge of £130.00 will
become due.

How to pay:
By MASTERCARD, VISA CREDIT, VISA DEBIT, or MAESTRO:
Online: at www.lbhf.gov.uk
By Phone: by calling us on (020) 7371 5678. We have an automated payment system
that you can use at any time.
By Post: please make all cheques and postal orders payable to the `London Borough of
Hammersmith & Fulham`, writing your registration number and PCN number on the back,
cross your cheque or postal order `a/c payee` and send it to: LBHF Parking Services, PO
Box 4666, Worthing BN11 9FY - (PLEASE DO NOT SEND CASH BY POST).
How to take the case further:
1 If you do not pay, we will send a `Notice to Owner` to the keeper. This form offers the
keeper the chance to formally challenge the PCN, or to pay the full charge (by this time it
will be too late to take advantage of the discount). If you are not the registered keeper, let
them know what you decide to do and that a Notice to Owner will be issued to them in due
course.
2 If we still disagree with you, the keeper can take the case to the Environment and Traffic
Adjudicators; they are independent and their decision is binding on both sides.

Yours sincerely

E Martin
Correspondence Officer


Is it worth taking the case to the tribunal?
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 08, 2024, 06:25:24 pm
Really appreciate you taking the time to help!

I will keep everyone posted with how the council respond
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: cp8759 on April 08, 2024, 06:03:44 pm
Key photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/PfaFAtu.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/VKI6fl9.jpeg)

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5MvH3iMnGH4inTBd8

Looks like a perfect replica of Abdi Saeed v London Borough of Croydon (2200415426, 2 December 2020) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gkQTPYqPM5aTzL-reB_KFBHgdHbGSvE9/view), which also happens to illustrate why appeals on the papers should be avoided. The decision in Kandiah Gajendra v London Borough of Croydon (2200057235, 5 March 2020) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10zSN5RaA7RxAG-HIu2UqhiwYMUO_y7JQ/view) is also relevant.

Here's what I would send:

Dear London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham,

At the time of parking I walked towards the regulatory sign for the bay and I did not see any suspension sign attached, therefore I had no reason to conduct any further searches for signage attaches to trees, railings or elsewhere.

I therefore challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because the authority appears to have attached the suspension sign to a tree, and the legal duty on motorists is to check the regulatory sign for the bay. There is no legal duty to conduct a random inspection of the local flora.

If the suspension sign had been where it should have been then I would have parked elsewhere.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 08, 2024, 01:47:01 am
Advice received already

"I would submit reps stating that you regularly park in this bay, and saw no suspension sign attached to the bay restrictions sign when parking. A motorist is only obliged to check the restrictions sign when parking. With no suspension sign on the restrictions sign for this bay, the contravention did not occur."

Also posted on pepipoo
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153861#
Title: PCN. Hammersmith&Fulham Council. Parking in suspended area
Post by: londondriver1994 on April 08, 2024, 01:45:56 am
I was visiting my girlfriend who lives in a resident permit area. She has a visitor permit which I activated. I arrived late 01/04 and the parking was suspended in certain areas on 02/04, which I fell foul of after staying overnight. Leaving the morning of the 03/04 I discovered I was served a PCN.

Arriving at night and being familiar with the area, I did not see the sign up on the tree, which was behind my car and the opposite direction of the direction I walked in after parking. The sign was stuck to a tree and not illuminated at all. The sign actually appeared brighter on the photograph taken on my phone thanks to google brightening the image. To be fair I was not really on the look out for signs as I am familiar with the parking restrictions in the area as I visit regularly. Even after discovering the ticket, I was unsure I was even in breach of the rules, as the sign said "parking suspended opposite 58&60". Those houses were on the other side of the road that I parked on and the house numbers are not clear to see at all. Plus the sign saying parking was suspended was a couple of meters behind my car.

Images can be seen here including pcn number and reg: https://imgur.com/a/iABap0o

I was just wondering if there are any grounds for a successful appeal here and if you have any advice?

Thanks