Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Susaq on April 06, 2024, 08:58:22 am
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the Euro5 and Euro6 things can be confusing especially when it comes to goods vehicles, vans and buses. The LEZ for those has been in force for several years now. The specifications for the car and light van Euro standards are different from those applied to cars and light vans. I'm not sure which standard applies to this N1 van!
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...but the OP is at reps stage with a different part of the process and often it's how the authority deal with reps that's as important in the mix as the underlying fundamentals.
There are two live March PCNs. One representation has been rejected and a Notice of Rejection issued dated the 6th April 2024. Representations can longer be submitted against this PCN. So this NoR needs to be paid, if the discount is still available on TFL's payment portal, or an appeal to the Adjudicator needs to be recorded. If the discount option is no longer available then it's a no brainer decision to appeal regardless of merit.
"I have never driven to London City but in December’23 I drove to T3 Heathrow to drop off my kids and returned a week later to collect them."
The above from the OP's initial post suggests that there were two opportunities where ULEZ PCNs should have been issued in December 2023 and apparently weren't. So that adds some credence to HCA's legitimate expectation argument.
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...but the OP is at reps stage with a different part of the process and often it's how the authority deal with reps that's as important in the mix as the underlying fundamentals.
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I would concur with cp. When I had a registered noncompliant car, I was billed less than 50% of the time.
Whether this was due to unreliability of cameras or the reliability of axel grinders I don't know.
I would posit that suggesting that not getting a PCN is equivalent to legitimate expectation, would be treated with with uninterest at appeal
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It's possible, but this is about probabilities and we're looking at two:
Did the cameras capture the December trip? If so, why wasn't a PCN issued e.g. the process of comparison of VRM and TfL database showed no violation etc?
Could this same misread as regards camera data and database be responsible for the March PCN?
In any event, IMO the Dec. events would allow them the defence of legitimate expectation. OK, if this defence is used then the burden falls on the keeper, but it wouldn't be difficult to prove the December flight, that they only have one car and to set out their route into the zone etc.
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Thank you.
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@H C Andersen it is entirely possible that the cameras did not pick up the car in December 2023 (no ANPR camera is 100% effective), or maybe there were problems with the camera, either intrinsic to the camera or caused by vandals.
@Susaq you need to either get the emissions data from Nissan and appeal, or pay the penalty. If you do nothing the penalty will increase by 50% to £270.
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This has been my query from day 1. Same driver, vehicle and journey through LHR after the expansion date.
I never received any notification for either of those journeys in December 2023 but I daren’t ask in case I receive another 2 penalties!
Once I knew what ULEZ was I had assumed the pickup wasn’t compliant but I know zero about cars and hadn’t realised a diesel engine in such a large vehicle could ever be deemed low emission.
Thank you everyone for your advice.
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OP, the NOR you've posted allowed payment of £90 - effectively the discount - until 14 days beginning the date of the letter, 8 April. This expired on 21st so you're in for the full penalty or worse if you don't register an appeal in time.
IMO, the thread has missed a key aspect of your account which has not been examined.
in December’23 I drove to T3 Heathrow to drop off my kids and returned a week later to collect them.
My husband and I used Heathrow T5 to travel in March ‘24. We used the Meet and Greet parking facility and returned a week later.
A few days after we arrived home I received a PCN for the day we got to the airport. It was an immediate £90 fine. A week later I got a second one for the day we got home
Why didn’t I get any penalty notices in December? Same vehicle, same trip.
Exactly. Unless the limits changed between Dec. and March or you did not enter the ULEZ area (route to T3 being different from T5) but as 'The ULEZ was expanded across all London boroughs on 29 August 2023.', that's not likely to be the case, then IMO you had a legitimate expectation that your vehicle was compliant and not as you posted 'It’s a Nissan Navara so I’d thought it wouldn’t be compliant.'.
- unless your registered keeper address has changed since Dec. '23 and there are two more PCNs in circulation!
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The balance of probability is that this Navara is Euro 5b. The NOx is too high for Euro 6b at 0.219g/km and needs to be 0.125. However I too don't understand the PM numbers.
Assuming the rules are the same as a category M1 car then it's the NOx and PM (Particulate Matter) numbers that matter and gets the vehicle past the finishing post. Not just total Euro E6 compliance.
Seems that in 2016 Nissan introduced a revised Navara with AdBlue and other engine modifications to make it Euro 6b. So this Navara must be one of the last of the original spec. Registered in March 2016 and wouldn't have been legal to register in September 2016.
But the OP should ask Nissan for definitive emissions status and numbers.
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Here's the V5C the right way round:
(https://i.imgur.com/yh24Kqz.jpeg)
The CO level looks OK but I don't understand the particulates value, as even the euro 1 standard from 1993 had a maximum level of 0.25 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_light_commercial_vehicles (scroll down to the table for Category N1 Class III & N2), my suspicion is that the values on the V5C are in g/KwH rather than g/Km.
Looking at the table at https://content.tfl.gov.uk/lez-scheme-order.pdf on page 31 all the values are in g/KwH, so I think you'd have to contact Nissan for some definitive figures.
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Hi
No, it doesn’t have AdBlue, my husband checked and that was 6 months later than this pickup.
Here’s the details from the V5. I can’t find what emission amounts are - I just went around in circles so finding that could be made easier.
Thank you
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please post up a picture of the emissions section of the V5c of the registration doc.
Is your Navara fitted with an AdBlue system?
And is the exact model a Nissan NP300 Navara Tekna DCI Auto.
A diesel car registered March 2016 should be Euro 6.
However this seems to be a goods vehicle “Category N1“: Vehicles used for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes. For these the Euro 6 limit came in a year later, September 2016, than for "Category M1" passenger cars.
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No, you need the detailed figures from Nissan.
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DVLA website shows the emissions as attached.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I’ll contact them. Thank you
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I'm quite shocked that a 2016-registered vehicle is not ULEZ compliant, and would suggest you get the emissions figures from Nissan.
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As I said earlier, "thinking" can be the wrong answer, which is why we're here. People thinking that what the council etc say is right and you must obey. They sometimes get it wrong and that's why the good folk on here read through the fine print and find the faults that prove my point. One wrong word on your penalty charge notice can make a big difference to your case. :)
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I haven’t ignored it. I have checked the details and it is showing as non-compliant. As it’s a diesel guzzling pickup truck I tend to agree TfL may be right on this?
What makes no sense is I didn’t get any notifications relating to ULEZ when I travelled in December?
It’s a Nissan Navara WH16 PWN if that helps?
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but you seem to have ignored Enceladus instructions in post#11
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I have checked thank you.
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Sometimes "thinking" can be the wrong answer! Best to actually check with their database to see if it's correct before shelling out £180.
Have a look here: https://www.ftla.uk/news-press-articles/tfl-ulez-mistakes/
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Hi
It’s a Nissan Navara so I’d thought it wouldn’t be compliant.
Thanks
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Just because you have ULEZ PCNs doesn't mean your car is emissions non-compliant. There are plenty of
errors in the ULEZ database. That can be checked when you post up the PCNs.
I repeat what I said above on the 6th April. There are errors in the ULEZ database. Some compliant cars show up as non-compliant for various reasons. PCNs are issued when they shouldn't have been. This should be checked. You never know, this might apply to your car.
So what's the vehicle reg and the exact model? Unfortunately you've over redacted the TFL letter and you haven't posted up the PCNs.
The instructions at the top of the forum here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) asks you to only redact your name & address, if present. Please leave everything else visible. See below.
"Leave in the PCN number and vehicle numberplate (VRM). The ONLY things you should obscure are your name and address where they appear, NOTHING ELSE. We may need ALL sides of ALL pages but it is OK to start a case with just the front of the PCN."
Thanks,
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@Susaq I should add, if the penalty goes up at some point on 21 April then you need to open another browser window and go to https://time.is and get a screenshot capturing both the amount due and the time.is website. If this scenario plays out let us know and we'll help you with the appeal.
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Thank you.
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If this were a parking or moving traffic contravention case dealt with by the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators then you'd still have a fair shot on appeal based on the wording in the notice of rejection, this would be done by bringing a collateral challenge against the notice of rejection. However with the Road User Charging Adjudicators it would be a battle just to establish that a collateral challenge can be brought, and I suspect it would be rejected anyway, as the main flaw in the wording appears to have been fixed and the remaining issues are not so clear-cut.
If the penalty amount on the TFL website increases to £180 at any time prior to midnight on 21 April, then you have an open-and-shut winning appeal.
If the penalty charge amount does not go up prior to midnight on 21 April, then you might want to consider paying the discounted amount while you can.
Of course that leaves aside any issues of signage, as google street view is not up to date with the new ULEZ signs we cannot say whether the signage is adequate or not, and you obviously can't go back and check given that you live in Wales. You could appeal on the signage anyway, but it would be a gamble as we'd be going in blind.
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@cp8759 Attachments on previous message
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Hi,
I have received one of the rejection letters.
I have attached it (3 pages). There is also a notice of appeal form enclosed.
Thanks you
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thank you so much.
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Thank you for your reply. I really hadn’t heard of it until the notices arrived.
I’ve done two representations and once I get a response I will pay both fines as this is causing me too much stress.
@Susaq when you get the rejections please show us rather than just paying. At present Transport for London has a flaw in their notice of rejection, if the incorrect wording is present in your rejection as well then it's a virtually guaranteed win if you appeal to the tribunal.
If there's a way out of this, paying £180 seems like a complete waste of money.
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Thank you for your reply. I really hadn’t heard of it until the notices arrived.
I’ve done two representations and once I get a response I will pay both fines as this is causing me too much stress.
I’ve signed up for automatic payments now so it won’t happen again.
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All the road user charging schemes are similar, CAZs, London ULEZ, DART crossing, Mersey Gateway. If a charge is due, you can pay it in advance or within a few days after using the road. Each scheme sets its own arrears period. The lwa is that as a motorist you must know all about these things and ignorance of them is no excuse. Of course the law is, as the Beadle said, in Dicken's book Oliver Twist, "the law is a ass, sir".
If it were me, I'd submit reps for the two PCNs pointing out that you live in (rural ?) Wales and had never travelled to London in your whole life, but on two trips to London Heathrow Airport was shocked to receive the PCNs for non-payment of the London ULEZ scheme, something you had never heard of at all, so made no payment. Request that they cancel the PCNs and ensure that the existence of this scheme is made more widely known.
ALso check your car reg number against the Transport for London compliance checker: -
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/
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Please see the Read This First post at the top of the forum here. (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) Please post up scans/pictures of both PCNs. Please male sure to only redact your name & address. Please leave all other details visible.
Just because you have ULEZ PCNs doesn't mean your car is emissions non-compliant. There are plenty of errors in the ULEZ database. That can be checked when you post up the PCNs.
You had three days to pay the ULEZ charge of £12.50. The PCNs are for £180 each for non-payment of the £12.50 charge. The £180 is discounted to £90 if paid within 14 days.
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I am born and raised in Wales where ULEZ is unheard of for the majority.
I have never driven to London City but in December’23 I drove to T3 Heathrow to drop off my kids and returned a week later to collect them.
I paid the drop off zone fee when I got home (because my son noticed the sign) and paid a 2nd one at the same time in readiness for collection only to find it wasn’t needed.
My husband and I used Heathrow T5 to travel in March ‘24. We used the Meet and Greet parking facility and returned a week later.
A few days after we arrived home I received a PCN for the day we got to the airport. It was an immediate £90 fine. A week later I got a second one for the day we got home (it is actually timed and dated when we were still flying).
I have completed the representations but from the reading I have done since I have no chance of success.
My issues are:
1. Why is it an immediate £90 fine? If they only allow 3 days to pay the £12.50 and you have no idea about ULEZ how can you pay it in 3 days when the PCN doesn’t arrive until 10 days later?
2. Does this 3 day rule only apply to ULEZ or are all TfL fines based on 3 days? Usually if a fine is £90 you get a reduction if paid within 14 days.
3. There is no payment plan discussion until you get to the £240 level which is ridiculous.
I have £180 to pay them which is going to be difficult to find in one go as we’ve had a run of financial problems in the past few weeks so the tank is empty!
4. Why didn’t I get any penalty notices in December? Same vehicle, same trip.