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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jmann on April 05, 2024, 09:22:14 pm

Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 06:26:20 pm
Well the council doesn't know where you entered the zone, let's keep it that way and there is a fair chance they won't substantiate their position as to the signage. If the sign is there you can't say it isn't, but you're not required to incriminate yourself either (and it's up to them to prove the signs are there, you don't have to prove that they're not).

I would concentrate on the point identified by Pastmybest:

Dear London Borough of Croydon,

I content the alleged contravention did not occur for the reasons explained by the adjudicator in Rashidat Ahmad v London Borough of Brent (2190152145, 28 May 2019).

Yours faithfully,

Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: Incandescent on April 18, 2024, 08:54:08 am
You were in the North Permit Zone
https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-02/north-zone-%28oct-2021.pdf
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: jmann on April 18, 2024, 01:39:45 am
so took a drive on the same path.
only thing is that on Joining London Road from Stanley Rd, there is a sign of Controlled Zone "Mon - Sat, 9am - 5pm"
and on entrance to Lennard Rd there is a sign of Pedestrian Zone, Mon - Fri 8.00 - 9.30 am, 2 - 4 pm (except permit holders).

I guess the sign on exiting Stanley Rd looses me some ground?


Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: jmann on April 17, 2024, 10:24:28 pm
My journey started from Stanley Road (where my office is). I took a right from Stanley rd to London Road.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxBHspwU62U3DMNP6

does this give me a fighting chance?
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: cp8759 on April 14, 2024, 11:47:25 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on April 12, 2024, 10:17:21 am
Surely the strongest point is the case cited by PMB (2190152145) ? The council have completely ignored guidance on signing where a single yellow line coincides with school zig-zags.
I think both points should be pursued vigorously. It's Croydon we're talking about and they're unlikely to put up much of a fight.

To pursue the entrance zone sign argument, we need @jmann to answer my questions above.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: Incandescent on April 12, 2024, 10:17:21 am
Surely the strongest point is the case cited by PMB (2190152145) ? The council have completely ignored guidance on signing where a single yellow line coincides with school zig-zags.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: cp8759 on April 12, 2024, 09:24:57 am
@jmann this is the map of the CPZ: https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-02/north-zone-%28oct-2021.pdf

So the question is how did you enter the zone, did you come from the North along London Road? If so, you would have entered the zone here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Exoy2BZpo4XLZDKx7 (there is also a sign on the offside).

Are you able to confirm this is where you entered the zone? If so, are you able to check if the sign is still visible / in place?
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: jmann on April 09, 2024, 02:50:13 pm
I am the sole company director.
Log book does not have my personal name.
Route I took is London Road, then turned left into Oakfield road, then left onto Lennard Road, where I got the ticket.

Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: Pastmybest on April 09, 2024, 12:46:28 pm
One of the stronger points IMO would be the reason this case was allowed

2190152145

cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons   
Mrs Ahmad has attended in person.

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The alleged contravention occurred in Curzon Crescent at 6.09pm on 11 January 2019.

I have looked at the CEO's images. There is an image of the back of Mrs Ahmad's car which shows that it was parked on school entrance markings. It is not in dispute that there is a sign next to the markings which says no stopping on entrance markings Mondays to Fridays between 8.15am to 9.15am and 2.30pm to 4.30pm. There is a single yellow line running through the entrance markings. There is no signage next to the single yellow line to alert a motorist to a separate no stopping and no waiting restriction.

The Council says that Curzon Crescent is part of a Controlled Parking Zone for which the controlled hours of parking are 8.30am to 6.30pm Mondays to Fridays. Mrs Ahmad says that she parked in the belief that the no stopping restrictions were the signed restrictions next to the school entrance markings.

I am allowing this appeal because the signage and markings are confusing to the motorist. A motorist who sees a no stopping sign next to school entrance markings will reasonably think that the no stopping restriction applies during the controlled hours shown on the sign unless there is an additional sign with a no waiting restriction for a single yellow line. A motorist is unlikely to realise that the yellow line is not part of the school entrance restrictions. There is normally no requirement for the signage of yellow line restrictions in an individual street which is part of a CPZ but this situation is different because the yellow line is likely to be seen as part of the school entrance markings.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: cp8759 on April 08, 2024, 06:38:10 pm
Quote from: jmann on April 08, 2024, 11:15:02 am
It is not a lease\hire, it is purchased outright by the company.
So what's your connection to the company, do you own it? are you a director? do you just work for them as an employee?

Also do you recall what route you took to get there?
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: jmann on April 08, 2024, 11:15:02 am
Thank you for all info so far.
Company is the registered keeper (only Ltd company name on the V5)
It is not a lease\hire, it is purchased outright by the company.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: cp8759 on April 06, 2024, 05:03:12 pm
Is it a leased car? Or is the company the registered keeper?

In any event if you want to challenge this, you need to inform the registered keeper and get them to cooperate, which won't generally be an issue as long as you agree to indemnify them should the appeal ultimately be successful.

The council photos do not prove any contravention:

(https://i.imgur.com/G9AXYnr.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6TocOSf.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Qx2iNou.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Tr96RJ1.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Lkp1r5w.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IXvOkoE.jpeg)

The PCN is for the waiting restriction conveyed by the single yellow line, it has nothing to do with the zig-zags. You need to have a look at https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/parking/parking-restrictions/list-controlled-parking-zones and work out which zone you were in, and exactly where you entered the zone, that really is the first step for this sort of PCN.
Title: Re: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: Incandescent on April 05, 2024, 11:52:25 pm
As it is a leased car, it can get complicated if you stand your ground and decide to fight the matter through to adjudication. This is because the second stage of the process is the service of a Notice to Owner to the lease company, who are the registered owner on the V5C Registration Certificate for the car. We see many cases where the lessee wants to fight the matter, but the lease company just pay-up and off-charge the penalty, and add on an "admin fee". So you need to check the lease conditions with the lease company and tell us what they are and also that you have received a PCN and wish to fight it, and ask them not to pay the NtO when it arrives. .

As for the allegation, this looks to be eminently appealable because they have failed in their duty to sign the restriction properly.

Your PCN has been served for parking on the yellow line during its restricted hours and has nothing to do with the school zig-zags which indicate a " No Stopping" restriction. But there is no sign to indicate the restrictions for the yellow linem because the location is within the Croydon North Zone CPZ. Here is one of the CPZ signs as you come south on Mitcham Road
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tp9ChL6a2VEFAnHu7

The sign is at one of the entrances to the zone and defines the days and hours of the single-yellow line restriction inside the zone. You will see that the restriction is Mon-Sat 9.00am to 5.00pm.  However, where there are two restrictions on a street, as is the case here on Lennard Road, the guidance regarding signs is that there should be a sign for the yellow line in addition to the sign for the zig-zags. Here there isn't so you can submit representations on that basis. I think there is another case similar to yours currently running on the forum, so have a look round.
Title: Parking on Restricted Mon- Fri spot on Bank Holiday Monday
Post by: jmann on April 05, 2024, 09:22:14 pm
As the subject says - allegedly parked on a Mon-Fri restricted road on a bank holiday Monday.
Pictures plus PCN attached.

Its a company car so only Registration will be the Ltd company.  does that help?

I wonder what is there reason to no consider bank holiday Monday as a non weekend day. clearly the zig zag lines are for protection of school people plus help with getting dropped\picked off so should a bank holiday not be treated like any other weekend day?

any ground for appeal?

Thanks

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